God's intention?

Reformationist · Sep 18, 2007

Spade48d said:
Hello Reformationist,

On what basis do you make the statement that Adam was not mortal until he sinned? Please provide scriptural support for your definition of death.

Sure.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

As you can see, death entered the world through sin. Before sin, no death. Pretty straightforward.

I have be perplexed trying to figure out whether the death that God promised Adam for disobeying had anything more than a spiritual basis or meaning.

The "death" of which God spoke was a reference to both spiritual and physical death. When sin entered into the nature of man his nature was profoundly changed through its corruption. He begin the steady march towards death, though his spiritual decline appears to happen much quicker, as is evidenced by how quickly man resorted to murder to achieve his ends rather than an utter reliance upon God. Had Adam never sinned, he would have remained in perfect union with God and enjoyed everlasting felicity.

I believe that Adam was mortal. Whether he sinned of not he was gonna die physically.

Other than the fact that he did die, which I contend is due to his commission of sin, is there something Scripturally that leads you to believe this?

I look forward to your response.

be blessed
spade

Thanks. Hope that helps clarify my position. Also, let me close by saying that I believe God created Adam knowing full well that he would sin and inherit the wrath of the Lord God for himself and his progeny, for what else is to be expected of an omniscient God? With that said, it appears the Bible is quite explicit about what brought forth death, and that was sin.

God bless

Spade48d · Sep 18, 2007

Hello Reformationist.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

As you can see, death entered the world through sin. Before sin, no death. Pretty straightforward

I asked you to give the definition of death. This is not a definition. It is merely stating how it entered the world It is like saying that the definition of a basketball is.... the basketball entered through the hoop after hitting the backboard. Perhaps I should be more specific. What type of death does Rom5 refer to physical or spiritual? If both then give me scriptural support where it says so.

The "death" of which God spoke was a reference to both spiritual and physical death

Prove it. I can't seem to.

Had Adam never sinned, he would have remained in perfect union with God and enjoyed everlasting felicity.

Had God not created Satan maybe so. However God did create Satan, Why? Did God intend to have Adam sin knowing Adam's weakness, so that He could send for a Redeemer, show His mercy and have all glorify Him? Who knows, its a mysterious plan at best.

Other than the fact that he did die, which I contend is due to his commission of sin, is there something Scripturally that leads you to believe this?

I already stated it in the post you are addressing but I will copy it here so you don't have to go back. "I say this in the absence of anything I can find to the contrary and the fact that he is described as nephesh in the Hebrew. Anything you can hopefully provide scripturally will help to determine the truth."

All of this double death is assumed. When you look at the Hebrew root of Adam you find the word nephesh. This is a mortal concept not otherwise. This is the basis for me thinking that Adam was mortal. There is actually no conflict with Paul's discussion of the first Adam in 1Cor15:45 where Adam is described as a living soul [nephesh] and Christ the second Adam as a quickening soul.

The concept of nephesh to the ancient Jews was that when a person died there was no separate soul that carried on living. The living soul was just another description of a living person or being, a nephesh as it were.

I hope that helps explain the basis for my thinking that Adam was a mortal man in the absence of supporting scriptural evidence to the contrary.

With that said, it appears the Bible is quite explicit about what brought forth death, and that was sin.

Yes but what kind of death? Physical or spiritual. I usually get confused reading Paul because I never no which he is talking about for sure. I always assume spiritual when in doubt. For reasons stated, assuming it means both is just that. I would like the proof of scripture.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to respond. A lot of what you say was spoon fed to me when I was a child. Not that it is wrong by any means. I am just trying to be as the Bereans and support whatever I come across with scripture.

be blessed
spade

Reformationist · Sep 18, 2007

Spade48d said:
Hello Reformationist.

Hello.

I asked you to give the definition of death.

No you didn't. You said, "Please provide scriptural support for your definition of death."

This is not a definition.

I understand that. For the record, I wasn't defining death, nor do I understand why you're asking me to define death. You were the one that spoke of immortality. I was simply defining "immortality," as evidenced by my statement, "Immortality means, in essence, not subject to death."

It is merely stating how it entered the world

Which I did to address the issue of whether Adam was immortal. So, to hopefully help your confusion, you stated that you were confused as to why the tree of life was present in the Garden if Adam and Eve were immortal. I was simply clarifying that if Adam was not subject to death, as he wasn't prior to the introduction of the law, he would meet the criteria of "immortal." For where there is no law there is no sin and where there is no sin there is no death.

It is like saying that the definition of a basketball is.... the basketball entered through the hoop after hitting the backboard.

Uh, yeah, it's nothing at all like that.

Perhaps I should be more specific. What type of death does Rom5 refer to physical or spiritual? If both then give me scriptural support where it says so.

First, let me clarify that I am not intending to relay a belief that Adam and Eve were "incapable of dying," either physically or spiritually. Adam and Eve were created in a state of mutable perfection. Second, I've already said both. We both know that Adam died physically. I showed explicit Scripture stating that death is a product of sin. While I acknowledge the possibility that the "death" in question does not refer to physical death, I believe the impetus to prove that would be on you, not me.

Had God not created Satan maybe so.

I don't understand what it is that you're implying. Satan did not make Adam sin. Satan, like Adam, is a created being and has no power to make someone act contrary to their own desires. He may have the ability to tempt us but, as evidenced by the fact that we stand before God accountable for our own sins, "the devil made me do it," wasn't then, isn't now, and never will be a viable defense.

However God did create Satan, Why? Did God intend to have Adam sin knowing Adam's weakness, so that He could send for a Redeemer, show His mercy and have all glorify Him? Who knows, its a mysterious plan at best.

I would say that is a general, but accurate, representation of God's plan.

I already stated it in the post you are addressing but I will copy it here so you don't have to go back. "I say this in the absence of anything I can find to the contrary and the fact that he is described as nephesh in the Hebrew. Anything you can hopefully provide scripturally will help to determine the truth."

Um...there is nothing in that statement that explains your position, unless you're contending that it is appropriate to assume something is true simply because you can't find anything to the contrary in the Gospel.

All of this double death is assumed. When you look at the Hebrew root of Adam you find the word nephesh. This is a mortal concept not otherwise. This is the basis for me thinking that Adam was mortal. There is actually no conflict with Paul's discussion of the first Adam in 1Cor15:45 where Adam is described as a living soul [nephesh] and Christ the second Adam as a quickening soul.

The concept of nephesh to the ancient Jews was that when a person died there was no separate soul that carried on living. The living soul was just another description of a living person or being, a nephesh as it were.

I hope that helps explain the basis for my thinking that Adam was a mortal man in the absence of supporting scriptural evidence to the contrary.

It seems a rather loose use of the word but I'll see if I can study it further.

Yes but what kind of death? Physical or spiritual. I usually get confused reading Paul because I never no which he is talking about for sure. I always assume spiritual when in doubt. For reasons stated, assuming it means both is just that. I would like the proof of scripture.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to respond. A lot of what you say was spoon fed to me when I was a child. Not that it is wrong by any means. I am just trying to be as the Bereans and support whatever I come across with scripture.

be blessed
spade

I believe Paul is generally emphasizing the spiritual death of man but, by no means excluding the physical.

With that said, I look forward to a continuing godly discussion.

God bless

Kristos · Sep 18, 2007

Reformationist said:
Well, paradox though you may believe it to be, it was God who established His law and, in doing so, established what was unlawful. We are creatures of contrast and speak in such terms. Evil isn't independent of good. It relies on it for its substance, i.e., evil is the lack of good, just as dark is the lack of light.

Maybe we could further this by you helping us out with how you define evil?

"Good" is not a description of the creations' intrinsic quality. Rather, it is "good" because it is purposed by God for His purposes, which are surely "good." In this sense, even the Fall, the most catastrophic event in human history, is good. Even satan is good by this standard.

"Disobedience" is that which is not obedience. Once again, the term relies on its opposite for any substance. "Obedience," however, is that which conforms to the Law of God. It was God who established His Law and, in doing so, created that which is not obedience or, rather, disobedience.

God bless

Yes, to quote myself:

Evil is the absence of good; death is the absence of life. Evil is the alienation of the created being who has estranged himself from God; it is the degeneration of an essence that was created good.

cygnusx1 · Sep 18, 2007

I voted "yes" , from the starting point that evil is evil because God said it is.

It is God that defines good and evil , it was God who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil , a knowledge of evil existed before any evil act ...... God willingly permitted evil to arise in order to bring about a greater good ; the defeat of evil.

Spade48d · Sep 18, 2007

Reformationist said:
Hello.

No you didn't. You said, "Please provide scriptural support for your definition of death."

I understand that. For the record, I wasn't defining death, nor do I understand why you're asking me to define death. You were the one that spoke of immortality. I was simply defining "immortality," as evidenced by my statement, "Immortality means, in essence, not subject to death."

Which I did to address the issue of whether Adam was immortal. So, to hopefully help your confusion, you stated that you were confused as to why the tree of life was present in the Garden if Adam and Eve were immortal. I was simply clarifying that if Adam was not subject to death, as he wasn't prior to the introduction of the law, he would meet the criteria of "immortal." For where there is no law there is no sin and where there is no sin there is no death.

Uh, yeah, it's nothing at all like that.

First, let me clarify that I am not intending to relay a belief that Adam and Eve were "incapable of dying," either physically or spiritually. Adam and Eve were created in a state of mutable perfection. Second, I've already said both. We both know that Adam died physically. I showed explicit Scripture stating that death is a product of sin. While I acknowledge the possibility that the "death" in question does not refer to physical death, I believe the impetus to prove that would be on you, not me.

I don't understand what it is that you're implying. Satan did not make Adam sin. Satan, like Adam, is a created being and has no power to make someone act contrary to their own desires. He may have the ability to tempt us but, as evidenced by the fact that we stand before God accountable for our own sins, "the devil made me do it," wasn't then, isn't now, and never will be a viable defense.

I would say that is a general, but accurate, representation of God's plan.

Um...there is nothing in that statement that explains your position, unless you're contending that it is appropriate to assume something is true simply because you can't find anything to the contrary in the Gospel.

It seems a rather loose use of the word but I'll see if I can study it further.

I believe Paul is generally emphasizing the spiritual death of man but, by no means excluding the physical.

With that said, I look forward to a continuing godly discussion.

God bless

Hello Reformationist,

Thanks for your responses. I can see that my questions weren't as exacting in writing as they seem to be in my head. Your patience is noted and very much appreciated.

You are right about using the term nephesh loosely. However, it is very hard to determine without context why the same Hebrew word was translated so many different ways. However, the term nephesh seems to be the best tractable indication I could find of what kind of being Adam was.

Your answers were enlightening from several perspectives and I thank you.

be blessed
spade

Kristos · Sep 19, 2007

"This is evil: estrangement from God." St. Basil the Great, That God is Not the Cause of Evils

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"As many... as stand apart in their will from God, He brings upon them separation from Himself; and separation from God is death." St. Irenaeus Against Heresies 5. 27.2. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Men, rejecting eternal things and through the counsel of the devil turning toward the things of corruption, became the cause to themselves of the corruption in death." St. Athanasius the Great On the Incarnation 5 (Migne, PG 25. 104-105). [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"For as much as he departed from life, just so much did he draw nearer to death. For life is God; deprivation of life is death. So Adam was the author of death to himself through his departure from God." St. Basil the Great (PG 31. 945).[/FONT]

Reformationist · Sep 19, 2007

Kristos said:
"This is evil: estrangement from God." St. Basil the Great, That God is Not the Cause of Evils

"As many... as stand apart in their will from God, He brings upon them separation from Himself; and separation from God is death." St. Irenaeus Against Heresies 5. 27.2.

"Men, rejecting eternal things and through the counsel of the devil turning toward the things of corruption, became the cause to themselves of the corruption in death." St. Athanasius the Great On the Incarnation 5 (Migne, PG 25. 104-105).

"For as much as he departed from life, just so much did he draw nearer to death. For life is God; deprivation of life is death. So Adam was the author of death to himself through his departure from God." St. Basil the Great (PG 31. 945).

Oh, well, if Basil and Athanasius wrote it they must be right. After all they're canonized and infallibility certainly accompanies canonization, right?

First off, so far as I can see, no one is contending that God is the cause of evil, nor have I asked whether God does so. Secondly, addressing the issue of whether God intended the existence of evil boils down to, so far as I can see, two, and only two, distinct options, though within each I see license for debate. Either God did intend that there be evil in the world, for whatever reason He did so, and evil, like all things, was purposed to bring forth His invincible plan, or, He didn't intend that evil manifest and is now playing a game of catch-up to ensure that this evil, which He never intended happen, doesn't thwart His design.

If you feel there are other options, by all means, share with us your thoughts, or more likely, the thoughts of St. Basil or St. Athanasius or whoever else you think puts this in its proper biblical perspective.

If you agree that those two are the only options before us, then please explain with which of the two you align yourself.

God bless

Kristos · Sep 19, 2007

I already answered that question - God did not intend evil.

Reformationist · Sep 19, 2007

Kristos said:
I already answered that question - God did not intend evil.

Okay, so, you choose option B, "He didn't intend that evil manifest and is now playing a game of catch-up to ensure that this evil, which He never intended happen, doesn't thwart His design."

Got it. Thanks. That clears a lot up actually.

Kristos · Sep 19, 2007

Obviously, that's not what I said. God is all powerful, so the notion of Him playing catchup is obtuse.

Since you liked my other quotes so much, here is another one on His power:

"Therefore, we believe in one God: one principle, without beginning, uncreated, unbegotten, indestructible and immortal, eternal, unlimited, uncircumscribed, unbounded, infinite in power, simple, uncompounded, incorporeal, unchanging, unaffected, unchangeable, inalterate, invisible, source of goodness and justice, light intellectual and inaccessible; power which no measure can give any idea of but which is measured only by His own will, for He can do all things whatsoever He pleases; Maker of all things both visible and invisible, holding together all things and conserving them, Provider for all, governing and dominating and ruling over all in unending and immortal reign; without contradiction, filling all things, contained by nothing, but Himself containing all things, being their Conserver and first Possessor; pervading all substances without being defiled, removed far beyond all things and every substance as being supersubstantial and surpassing all, super-eminently divine and good and replete; appointing all the principalities and orders, set above every principality and order, above essence and life and speech and concept; light itself and goodness and being insofar as having neither being, nor anything else that is derived from any other; the very source of being for all things that are, of life to the living, of speech to the articulate, and the cause of all good things for all; knowing all things before they begin to be; one substance, one godhead, one virtue, one will, one operation, one principality, one power, one domination, one kingdom; known in three perfect Persons and adored with one adoration, believed in and worshipped by every rational creature, united without confusion and distinct without separation, which is beyond understanding. We believe in Father and Son and Holy Spirit in Whom we have been baptized. For it is thus that the Lord enjoined the apostles: 'Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." St. ]John Damascene Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 1. 8.

Reformationist · Sep 19, 2007

Kristos said:
Obviously, that's not what I said. God is all powerful, so the notion of Him playing catchup is obtuse.

So you see an option different than the two I listed, that being what, that He didn't intend that evil manifest and despite that He is "all powerful" it does exist? What shall I conclude but that you believe God was ambivelent.

Is that it? If not, please enlighten me as to how our Creator, who has both the power and authority to prevent the existence of evil, didn't intend that evil exist but, despite this, it does.

Thanks,
God bless

Kristos · Sep 20, 2007

Freewill of man.

Reformationist · Sep 20, 2007

Kristos said:
Freewill of man.

The freewill of man trumps the intent of God that evil not exist? I see. Oh let me guess, "Obviously, that isn't what you said."

Thankfully for the rest of us, the Bible is very explicit on this issue:

Job 42:2
I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.

If God never intended that evil be made manifest, then it stands to reason that He would purpose that very thing. As evil is most certainly, and identifiably, real, we can rest assured that if God purposed that it not exist, then it wouldn't. Oh that's right, I forgot. Those in your denomination see the proclamation in the book Job of God's sovereignty as mere hyperbole.

GeratTzedek · Sep 20, 2007

Tavita said:
The Tree of Life is symbolic of Jesus Christ Himself. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is symbolic of the flesh. The flesh does a lot of 'good' and 'evil', which is not acceptable to God.

They decided to eat of the flesh and put on another covering, instead of continuing to eat of the Giver of Life.

Where did the evil that Satan produced in his heart come from?

How can the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil be symbolic of the flesh? The flesh existed before the knowledge of Good and Evil. Eating of the fruit of that tree brought not the flesh, but KNOWLEDGE of the difference between Good and Evil. It was the tree of moral sentience.

Hismessenger · Sep 24, 2007

The problem is that evil is not a part of God, it is a created thing for a purpose which God is the only answer to. Nothing that is created can have sway over that which created it.

Evil was created for a purpose in the creation. If it had no purpose, it would not be a part of this creation. The question that should be asked is what is the purpose of evil?

hismessenger

Spade48d · Sep 25, 2007

Perhaps the following verse might start to give us a hint.

Ecc 1:13[CLV] I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Reformationist · Sep 25, 2007

Hismessenger said:
The problem is that evil is not a part of God, it is a created thing for a purpose which God is the only answer to. Nothing that is created can have sway over that which created it.

Though I completely agree, I'm not sure why this would be a problem.

Evil was created for a purpose in the creation. If it had no purpose, it would not be a part of this creation.

So your position is that God did intend for evil to exist?

The question that should be asked is what is the purpose of evil?

It's a good question, to be sure, but I think it's not that much of a mystery, as He answers that very question for us:

Romans 9:22-24
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

So, as we can see, His purpose was twofold, that He would show His wrath against the abomination of evil and make His power known, and, to make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy.

God bless

Reformationist · Sep 25, 2007

Spade48d said:
Perhaps the following verse might start to give us a hint.

Ecc 1:13[CLV] I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Good verse. Thanks.

Tavita · Sep 25, 2007

GerTzedek said:
How can the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil be symbolic of the flesh? The flesh existed before the knowledge of Good and Evil. Eating of the fruit of that tree brought not the flesh, but KNOWLEDGE of the difference between Good and Evil. It was the tree of moral sentience.

When Adam and Eve fell, they became earthly, sensual. Any moral attribute they had created within them became tainted by the flesh. The flesh is that part of us that seeks after itself, the self, not God. Adam and Eve were innocent until they ate the fruit of that tree.

The good in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is not necessarily God's goodness. What do the scriptures say.. Isa 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

We see the goodness and evil in this world through the eyes of our internal worldview which is the flesh. The good we seek to do is not always the good that is of God. They are of the same tree.. good and evil.

We are to eat of the Tree of Life, which is Christ Himself.

God's intention?

Did God intend for evil to exist?

Yes

No

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