Gods Generals......

[mrhappy3]

Aimee semple Mcpherson was said to have died of a drugs overdose, AA Allen was said to have drunk himself to death, Alex dowie Lost his mind in the finish., William Branham, became a false teacher......and on the list goes, of Gods supposed generals.

Not judging in no way, just wondering IF the powerful anointings they received were too much to handle..........they were mightily used no doubt, but ultimately failed.

Is there a pattern to this ?? Can our frail vessels really cope with a HEAVY MANTLE.

 

[LinkH]

I corresponded with someone who had worked with Allen once. He said he interviewed the person who worked at the hotel where Allen was found dead, and the man said it wasn't true that the room was strewn with liquor bottles and pills. There weren't any in there. He figured that was a fabrication.

The story goes that the coroner found that the cause of death was something else-- I forget-- but put it down as a liver problem. Years later, he mailed the 10k check he'd been bribed--the story goes--to lie about the cause of death to miracle valley, but they hid the fact to keep from there being damage to the denomination whose people had paid the money. I forget the details. I used to have the email way back when. I think there is some stuff on the web about this.

 

[tturt]

I read God's Generals and understand the thread title. OT Generals included Elijah who had a rejection problem to the point of having a death wish, Balaam was greedy, Jonah was prideful, Abraham had family problems, David was lustful and a murderer, Moses had an anger problem which resulted in him not going into the promised land, ETC

I've read that whatever we don't take care of with His help will show up in our ministries.

 

[K2K]

Rm 7:10 For the good tht I want , I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

It seems to me that Paul would certainly come under the heading "Gods Generals", and yet Paul had a battle with sin.

Rm 7:20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Before I knew the Lord, I mostly felt the my battles were with other people. Now the closer I get to the Lord the more I become aware that my battles are with in me, and I see the even the problems I encounter with other people are because of the battles they have going on inside them ( wheter they know it or not)

Eph 6:12 For out struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickness in the heavenly places.

It often seems to me that many Christians think this battle against rulers, powers, darkness, and spiritual forces in heavenly places, is taking place somewhere other than inside them. That is; there sometimes seems to be a thinking that if somebody is a "Christian" they don't have any problems but those that are not "Christians" have the problems. Indeed - from what I have seen, the fact that a person becomes a 'Christian' increases the attack from the powers, rulers, darkness, and spiritual forces in their life. Or should we think the devil is just fine we us following the Lord?

Recently the Lord asked me to help in a healing room ministry. I don't know why, but when I joined I though I would be dealing a lot with non-believers that God was drawing to Himself by performing miracles in their lives. What I found was almost always being used by the Lord to help belivers that are under attack from the rulers, powers, and dark forces of this world.

In fact last night I was working in the ministry and worked with 3 people, all of which were faithful believers that needed help with the battles. And we come in about an hour early just to sit in a quite room trying to get close to God. Last night during that time I heard Lord tell me that He wanted me praying for the pastor that lead the ministry for the entire hour.

We all need prayer because of the battle, and our leaders need it more that we do because they battle with greater forces. So who failed if one of God's Generals did get run over in the battle?

1 Sam 12:14 If you will fear the Lord and serve Him, and listen to His voice and not rebel against the command of the Lord, then both you and also the king who reigns over you will follow the Lord your God.

Clearly, according to the Scriptures, if one of God's Generals go down in the battle; we did not fear the Lord and serve Him like we should have, we did not listen to the Lord's voice like we should have and we rebeled against the commandments of the Lord.

Samuel told the people they needed to fear, serve, listen to, and not rebel against the Lord, and appointed Saul as their leader and general who lead them into battle. When Saul fell so did the army he lead. What does that mean to us today?

 

[~RENEE~]

~ Noah was a drunk

~ Abraham was too old

~ Isaac was a daydreamer

~ Jacob was a liar

~ Leah was ugly

~ Joseph was abused

~ Moses had a stuttering problem

~ Gideon was afraid

~ Samson had long hair and was a womanizer

~ Rahab was a prostitute

~ Jeremiah and Timothy were too young

~ David was an adulterer and a murderer

~ Elijah was suicidal

~ Isaiah preached naked

~ Jonah ran from God

~ Naomi was a widow

~ Job went bankrupt

~ John the Baptist ate bugs

~ Peter denied Christ

~ The disciples fell asleep while praying

~ Martha worried about everything

~ The Samaritan woman was divorced (more than once)

~ Zaccheus was too small

~ Paul was too religious

~ Timothy had an ulcer

~ Lazarus was dead!


yeah so

 

[MAS0N]

24 Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” -2 Samuel 24:1

Notice God was angry with Israel and caused their leader to sin. Was David void of responsibility then? No, his heart was probably distracted too, but... an interesting question to ask is, "Does God allow leaders to stumble because of their followers?"

I feel many popular leaders are worshiped and given too much glory (aka credit) for something the Holy Spirit is doing. Maybe God allows them to stumble to wake-up the idolaters.

We must remember, "gifts of healing (1 Cor. 14)" come from the Holy Spirit, not man.

I'm actually preaching to my congregation this Sunday on Divine healing too! Go figure. But I'm preaching on how it is a benefit from the atoning work of the cross available to all believers. Not some unique anointing available to only a few.

 

[Simon Peter]

~ Noah was a drunk

~ Abraham was too old

~ Isaac was a daydreamer

~ Jacob was a liar

~ Leah was ugly

~ Joseph was abused

~ Moses had a stuttering problem

~ Gideon was afraid

~ Samson had long hair and was a womanizer

~ Rahab was a prostitute

~ Jeremiah and Timothy were too young

~ David was an adulterer and a murderer

~ Elijah was suicidal

~ Isaiah preached naked

~ Jonah ran from God

~ Naomi was a widow

~ Job went bankrupt

~ John the Baptist ate bugs

~ Peter denied Christ

~ The disciples fell asleep while praying

~ Martha worried about everything

~ The Samaritan woman was divorced (more than once)

~ Zaccheus was too small

~ Paul was too religious

~ Timothy had an ulcer

~ Lazarus was dead!


yeah so

Great list

 

[paul1149]

I can strongly recommend the biography Sister Aimee by Daniel Epstein. McPherson had a simply unbelievable anointing. Skeptical reporters would come to meetings to find fault, would sit there speechless, and would stay to pray. Parents would tear siding off buildings to pass their children in for healing. The book is very evenhanded, and shows quite clearly that Aimee's human side played a large part in doing her in. But there were other factors as well: the hatred of the world, and the jealousy of other ministers. For Aimee, I don't know that it was the mantle, per se, so much as the loneliness of her position that drove her to make unwise choices. I came off the book far more sympathetic to her than I had been in my ignorance, and in awe of what she did accomplish. Would that we would have 1000 more, without the flaws.

BTW, some of the Generals series is on youtube. Excellent viewing.

 

[JimB]

Aimee semple Mcpherson was said to have died of a drugs overdose, AA Allen was said to have drunk himself to death, Alex dowie Lost his mind in the finish., William Branham, became a false teacher......and on the list goes, of Gods supposed generals.

Not judging in no way, just wondering IF the powerful anointings they received were too much to handle..........they were mightily used no doubt, but ultimately failed.

Is there a pattern to this ?? Can our frail vessels really cope with a HEAVY MANTLE.

All of our idols have clay feet. I learned decades ago that the legends that have been built up around these healing heroes come from their own promotional press reports or celebrity preacher groupies and are, well, less than factual. I have decided that it is best to have just one Super-Hero—at least I know the reports about Him are true.

~Jim


-

 

[Andy S. Wright]

"God's Generals" are just that, God's. The problem is not with the failings of these people but with elevating them to celebrity status. Scriptures clearly state that if we humble ourselves under the hand of God that in due time He will exalt us (1 Peter 5:6). That exaltation is often a curse rather than a blessing because of the reaction of God's people; including the anointed one. I've seen far too many of God's anointed fall, not because of the weight of the mantle but because of the weight of expectation from the public and their own misguided expectations of themselves.

Christianity has been pockmarked with carnal considerations such as secular marketing tactics and when a minister becomes a marketable name within Christianity, well the expectations are enormous. Each conference they are asked to speak in becomes a showcase for their gifting/anointing. Each "EXPLOSION" they are requested to keynote is filled with expectation of repeated miracles. In short, as the celebripastor's name and reputation increases, God must decrease. People don't come out to see God work through one of his vessels as much as they come to see the vessel itself. It doesn't help when the vessel buys into their own hype and begins to exhibit prima donna traits normally found in secular entertainers. In the end, the pressure to meet the expectations becomes a curse and a trap that normally one can only escape through scandal or tragedy.

Hence the list of flawed prophets, priests, and kings.

 

[JimB]

"God's Generals" are just that, God's. The problem is not with the failings of these people but with elevating them to celebrity status. Scriptures clearly state that if we humble ourselves under the hand of God that in due time He will exalt us (1 Peter 5:6). That exaltation is often a curse rather than a blessing because of the reaction of God's people; including the anointed one. I've seen far too many of God's anointed fall, not because of the weight of the mantle but because of the weight of expectation from the public and their own misguided expectations of themselves.

Christianity has been pockmarked with carnal considerations such as secular marketing tactics and when a minister becomes a marketable name within Christianity, well the expectations are enormous. Each conference they are asked to speak in becomes a showcase for their gifting/anointing. Each "EXPLOSION" they are requested to keynote is filled with expectation of repeated miracles. In short, as the celebripastor's name and reputation increases, God must decrease. People don't come out to see God work through one of his vessels as much as they come to see the vessel itself. It doesn't help when the vessel buys into their own hype and begins to exhibit prima donna traits normally found in secular entertainers. In the end, the pressure to meet the expectations becomes a curse and a trap that normally one can only escape through scandal or tragedy.

Hence the list of flawed prophets, priests, and kings.

Hi Andy.

I respectfully disagree. If celebrity preachers are “anointed” (one of the most over-used and mis-used words in P/C churches) they are, IMO, more self-anointed than God-anointed. That's why they fall--they eventually rip what they sew. One of the most dismal chapters of my life was my association with Christian superstars via PTL in the 1980s (just before it collapsed under its own baggage). I was disillusioned by ministers whose fans had put on pedestals and who believed their PR reports, preachers who were chiefly just skilled promotional professionals who had spent an entire lifetime promoting themselves and who knew how to market themselves. Most of what we know of them comes from their own edited books, tapes, and TV programs which, IMO, are embellished by them and exaggerated by their followers. More genuine miracles happen in believers through ordinary churches every week than ever happens on stages in front of TV cameras. IMO, we are too easily deceived.

 

[mrhappy3]

True.

Most of it is hype. People love it. Meet a humble, ordinary guy doing the "stuff" and they will look away. People just love to love an "idol". Its called carnality.

 

[JEBrady]

Aimee semple Mcpherson was said to have died of a drugs overdose, AA Allen was said to have drunk himself to death, Alex dowie Lost his mind in the finish., William Branham, became a false teacher......and on the list goes, of Gods supposed generals.

Not judging in no way, just wondering IF the powerful anointings they received were too much to handle..........they were mightily used no doubt, but ultimately failed.

Is there a pattern to this ?? Can our frail vessels really cope with a HEAVY MANTLE.

To say that we can't cope with the equipping that comes with a particular ministry calling would be to say that God is somehow unjust in putting that ministry on us. Of course He's not..He fashions each one of us in a particular way and calls us according to His wisdom.

But each one of us has to put his pants on the same way in the morning, to put it in the vernacular. That ministry calling doesn't make it any easier to walk in the Spirit for a minister than for someone who isn't so visible or so equipped. It does make a person's character failings more visible, though, and it probably does make us a bit more of a target for the enemy.

Anyone who is mightily used of God could be tempted to think more highly of themselves than they ought, and there are certain temptations inherent in that kind of calling. If a person walks in disobedience to God's word and lets an area in their life be out of order they may be able to continue to minister for a while, but eventually things catch up with you. God doesn't revoke the calling, for the calling of God is without repentance, but a person can become disqualified, or ultimately God destroys the vessel, and that ministry is lost. To whom much is given, much is expected, but God is not unjust. With every temptation, He makes a way of escape so that we can bear up under it, and we have been given everything that pertains to life and godliness. It's us who choose to disregard the word and end up in trouble.

There's a whole lot more of us allowing the same sort of disobedience in our lives that anyone you mentioned did. The only difference is we're not so visible because we don't have the same ministry they did.

Bottom line, it's God who deserves the glory for the things He does by His Spirit, not the donkey He uses as a vessel of that glory.

 

[mrhappy3]

To say that we can't cope with the equipping that comes with a particular ministry calling would be to say that God is somehow unjust in putting that ministry on us. Of course He's not..He fashions each one of us in a particular way and calls us according to His wisdom.

But each one of us has to put his pants on the same way in the morning, to put it in the vernacular. That ministry calling doesn't make it any easier to walk in the Spirit for a minister than for someone who isn't so visible or so equipped. It does make a person's character failings more visible, though, and it probably does make us a bit more of a target for the enemy.

Anyone who is mightily used of God could be tempted to think more highly of themselves than they ought, and there are certain temptations inherent in that kind of calling. If a person walks in disobedience to God's word and lets an area in their life be out of order they may be able to continue to minister for a while, but eventually things catch up with you. God doesn't revoke the calling, for the calling of God is without repentance, but a person can become disqualified, or ultimately God destroys the vessel, and that ministry is lost. To whom much is given, much is expected, but God is not unjust. With every temptation, He makes a way of escape so that we can bear up under it, and we have been given everything that pertains to life and godliness. It's us who choose to disregard the word and end up in trouble.

There's a whole lot more of us allowing the same sort of disobedience in our lives that anyone you mentioned did. The only difference is we're not so visible because we don't have the same ministry they did.

Bottom line, it's God who deserves the glory for the things He does by His Spirit, not the donkey He uses as a vessel of that glory.

well said

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I think satan has ways of discrediting the message because he discredits the messenger. I am not perfect and can not stand in judgment of these individuals. They were used by the Lord in mighty ways and regardless how they met their death, I believe they are in Glory with the Lord now.

 

[Tobias]

IMHO we use the wrong standards to judge those who represent God.


We seem to be all hung up on things the Bible doesn't judge people for. Samson for example slept with a prostitute, then in the very same night ripped the gates of the city off and carried them on top of the nearest hill. But if Benny Hinn comes out of a hotel walking too close to a friend who happens to be female (and not his wife), we assume "the Anointing" that is flowing through him is of the Devil!

Nobody judges the characters in the Bible by the same standards. We do not examine the life of Samson, and determine when he was anointed by God and when he was possessed by false spirits. Somehow the guy who wrote the book of Judges simply KNEW that Samson was operating under the power of God, not the Devil. Yet today even the slightest suggestion of sin in someone's life is reason to judge their entire ministry as being under the influence of false spirits.

 

[JEBrady]

Caiphas said it was more expedient for Israel that one man should die rather than for the whole nation to be lost. Caiphas was very far from God, but the Bible tells us plainly he didn't speak this on his own- it came from God. It had to do with his position as high priest, and had nothing to do with his character, which was not godly at all. He still must stand before God an give a personal accounting. No credit to him for having spoken by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

The old prophet in 1 Ki 13 lies to the young prophet who spoke against the altar in Bethel and tells him an angel said for him to eat with him. He was lying through his teeth. Then when the guy sits with him to eat and drink, the word of the Lord comes to him and tells him he's going to die for disobeying the word of the Lord. The irony is incredible, but the point is, God uses who He wills, when he wills, and a ministry call or being used of God is no endorsement at all of that person.

I've seen a person speak the word of the Lord one day and I knew it was God, and the next time they speak they speak their own imagination as though it was the word of the Lord, and it was not the word of the Lord at all.

I tell you, we need to be before the Lord and know the voice of the Lord, and be doers of the word if we don't want to be deceived in these last days.

 

[JimB]

IMHO we use the wrong standards to judge those who represent God.


We seem to be all hung up on things the Bible doesn't judge people for. Samson for example slept with a prostitute, then in the very same night ripped the gates of the city off and carried them on top of the nearest hill. But if Benny Hinn comes out of a hotel walking too close to a friend who happens to be female (and not his wife), we assume "the Anointing" that is flowing through him is of the Devil!

Nobody judges the characters in the Bible by the same standards. We do not examine the life of Samson, and determine when he was anointed by God and when he was possessed by false spirits. Somehow the guy who wrote the book of Judges simply KNEW that Samson was operating under the power of God, not the Devil. Yet today even the slightest suggestion of sin in someone's life is reason to judge their entire ministry as being under the influence of false spirits.

Comparing Benny Hinn to Samson is pretty comical. I never heard that comparison.

~Jim

 

[Optimax]

Ministers that are called of God are anointed to minister the word of God.

They are not anointed to live it.

They have the same struggles that we all do and have to overcome the same way.

With the word and the Spirit.

 

[JimB]

Ministers that are called of God are anointed to minister the word of God.

They are not anointed to live it.

*****

What!!

Yes, ministers are called to “live it.” In fact, Paul required it in 1 Tim. 3.

1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
​

And in Titus 1:

5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you—6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. 10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. 12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
​

Either Paul was just writing to read himself to sleep or he meant what he said.

~Jim