Gods Generals......

[JEBrady]

What!!

Yes, ministers are called to “live it.” In fact, Paul required it in 1 Tim.
<snip>
Either Paul was just writing to read himself to sleep or he meant what he said.

~Jim

I think you're misunderstanding his post. He didn't say a minister wasn't called to "live it". He said the ministry anointing isn't there to help someone who's called to ministry "live it", and I agree completely.

That anointing is for the benefit of those the minister ministers to. It's not there to make his walk any easier. If anything, the calling can paint a target on your back and make things more difficult. I'm not sure if there's really any less squeak room for a minister, or if we just don't realize fully that we're all going to be judged by the same standard, but it sure seems like a minister is on the front lines and the higher the calling, the more critical it is to walk right.

As Paul found out, though, regardless of the circumstances of God's calling...His grace is sufficient. No matter what the call, we have no excuses for our choices in life. God is faithful.

 

[Tobias]

Continuing with the Samson thing... Samson is listed as one of the judges of Israel, but nowhere do we see that the nation ever trusted him to sit and judge the people or run the country. The fact is that his personal life was a mess! He did not live a godly life nor did he qualify to be a leader of the people.

Yet for some reason God still used him.


I find it important to separate out the two different callings we each receive. One is for our personal walk with God; and the other is for ministry to others. In our personal walk, we struggle with different issues unique to our individual situations. Many simply assume that if we don't have our personal walk under control, then God can never use us to reach out to others. But that is not the case! Satan would love for us to believe that, because then he could always stop us from doing any kind of ministry by simply making us feel unworthy.

We see from scripture though that God doesn't wait for us to reach perfection before using us. Acknowledging that God has used someone should not elevate that person and place them on a pedestal. We see how God used people in the Bible despite their flaws. So we don't follow David's example of how to deal with lusting after your friend's wife, or Jacob's example of how to get your brother's birthright you think you deserve!

For some reason though most Christians can't seem to apply the same principles to today. Todd Bentley fell into sin, so many assume the entire revival in Lakeland was a sham. Benny Hinn has marriage problems, so every healing miracle from his entire ministry gets scrutinized. But the message is repeated over and over and over again throughout the Bible that God uses imperfect people! Shouldn't we be following that example, and seeing the works of God for what they are, while not exalting the man (or woman) higher than what they deserve?

 

[JimB]

I think you're misunderstanding his post. He didn't say a minister wasn't called to "live it". He said the ministry anointing isn't there to help someone who's called to ministry "live it", and I agree completely.

That anointing is for the benefit of those the minister ministers to. It's not there to make his walk any easier. If anything, the calling can paint a target on your back and make things more difficult. I'm not sure if there's really any less squeak room for a minister, or if we just don't realize fully that we're all going to be judged by the same standard, but it sure seems like a minister is on the front lines and the higher the calling, the more critical it is to walk right.

As Paul found out, though, regardless of the circumstances of God's calling...His grace is sufficient. No matter what the call, we have no excuses for our choices in life. God is faithful.

But, JEB, isn’t every Christian “anointed.” (You really do need to read all the passages in the NT where the word occurs – CLICK HERE). If you check out the link you will readily see that no one had/has a special “anointing” to heal the sick, preach the Word, work miracles, etc. Some people obviously have the knack of self-promotion and after we read their press releases (i.e., believe their hype) we think they are special. They’re not. It’s deception, pure and simple.

~Jim

 

[JimB]

Continuing with the Samson thing... Samson is listed as one of the judges of Israel, but nowhere do we see that the nation ever trusted him to sit and judge the people or run the country. The fact is that his personal life was a mess! He did not live a godly life nor did he qualify to be a leader of the people.

Yet for some reason God still used him.


I find it important to separate out the two different callings we each receive. One is for our personal walk with God; and the other is for ministry to others. In our personal walk, we struggle with different issues unique to our individual situations. Many simply assume that if we don't have our personal walk under control, then God can never use us to reach out to others. But that is not the case! Satan would love for us to believe that, because then he could always stop us from doing any kind of ministry by simply making us feel unworthy.

We see from scripture though that God doesn't wait for us to reach perfection before using us. Acknowledging that God has used someone should not elevate that person and place them on a pedestal. We see how God used people in the Bible despite their flaws. So we don't follow David's example of how to deal with lusting after your friend's wife, or Jacob's example of how to get your brother's birthright you think you deserve!

For some reason though most Christians can't seem to apply the same principles to today. Todd Bentley fell into sin, so many assume the entire revival in Lakeland was a sham. Benny Hinn has marriage problems, so every healing miracle from his entire ministry gets scrutinized. But the message is repeated over and over and over again throughout the Bible that God uses imperfect people! Shouldn't we be following that example, and seeing the works of God for what they are, while not exalting the man (or woman) higher than what they deserve?

Samson judged (i.e., delivered) Israel from Philistine military occupation. The Bible says that he &#8220;judged/delivered&#8221; Israel over a period of 20 years (Jgs. 16.31). In that respect, he fulfilled what God called him to do. But to hold Samson up as an example of how Christian ministers/leaders are to behave borders on ludicrous, IMO. To say that we should excuse without evidence of repentance immoral, unethical, even criminal behavior in ministers because, hey, look at Samson, he was a bad dude and God used him is no justification for sinful behavior in our leaders. I am a pastor and I would fully expect to be disciplined both by God and the church if I violated the Bible&#8217;s clear standard in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.

As for "God using" TB and BH, well, let's say that is debatable.

~Jim



.

 

[seekertruth72]

24 Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” -2 Samuel 24:1

Notice God was angry with Israel and caused their leader to sin. Was David void of responsibility then? No, his heart was probably distracted too, but... an interesting question to ask is, "Does God allow leaders to stumble because of their followers?"

I feel many popular leaders are worshiped and given too much glory (aka credit) for something the Holy Spirit is doing. Maybe God allows them to stumble to wake-up the idolaters.

We must remember, "gifts of healing (1 Cor. 14)" come from the Holy Spirit, not man.

I'm actually preaching to my congregation this Sunday on Divine healing too! Go figure. But I'm preaching on how it is a benefit from the atoning work of the cross available to all believers. Not some unique anointing available to only a few.

Consider James 1:13-14.

 

[Optimax]

I think you're misunderstanding his post. He didn't say a minister wasn't called to "live it". He said the ministry anointing isn't there to help someone who's called to ministry "live it", and I agree completely.

That anointing is for the benefit of those the minister ministers to. It's not there to make his walk any easier. If anything, the calling can paint a target on your back and make things more difficult. I'm not sure if there's really any less squeak room for a minister, or if we just don't realize fully that we're all going to be judged by the same standard, but it sure seems like a minister is on the front lines and the higher the calling, the more critical it is to walk right.

As Paul found out, though, regardless of the circumstances of God's calling...His grace is sufficient. No matter what the call, we have no excuses for our choices in life. God is faithful.

Good post!
Does help to read and comprehend what a post says!

Jim has a habit of jumping off the "conclusion cliff".

 

[JimB]

Actually, Jim is trying to stay on track.

But, hey, let's make this thread personal ... (again).

~Guess Who

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The Scripture says that "no man can do these miracles except God is with him". It was true for Jesus and it has always been true for anyone else who has even been used of God to perform supernatural signs and wonders. The very fact that supernatural healings and miracles have taken place with the ministries of these healing evangelists means that God was with them in spite of their personal faults and shortcomings.

Also, the devil is a liar, a very convincing liar, and he does everything he can to discredit anyone who is effectively used of God. It goes with the territory.

Christian character is given as a gift of God through His mercy and grace. The same with a supernatural ministry. He is no respecter of persons. He will bestow a supernatural ministry on anyone who is available to be used of God. No person is good; only Jesus. This is why only Jesus can heal people and perform miracles. He does this through the Holy Spirit working through men and women of God.

I view these "discernment" sites where people criticise anyone who has a supernatural ministry and call them "false prophets". My question to these criticisers is this: In whose name do you heal the sick (if you actually do)? and in whose name do YOU cast out demons?

My view is that these "discerners" of false prophets are just useless, barren wannabes who haven't got the faith to be used of God and who are envious of those who are.

 

[Humble Pie]

Good post!
Does help to read and comprehend what a post says!

Jim has a habit of jumping off the "conclusion cliff".

That's unfair, I got same impression as he did when i read that post too but good to see it explained now.

 

[mandelduke]

No matter who you are, or how much you are filled with the spirit, as long as you are in the flesh you will fall short.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

]2 Corinthians 12:4:10
4 Was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. 5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say, 7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

 

[Tobias]

Samson judged (i.e., delivered) Israel from Philistine military occupation. The Bible says that he &#8220;judged/delivered&#8221; Israel over a period of 20 years (Jgs. 16.31). In that respect, he fulfilled what God called him to do. But to hold Samson up as an example of how Christian ministers/leaders are to behave borders on ludicrous, IMO. To say that we should excuse without evidence of repentance immoral, unethical, even criminal behavior in ministers because, hey, look at Samson, he was a bad dude and God used him is no justification for sinful behavior in our leaders. I am a pastor and I would fully expect to be disciplined both by God and the church if I violated the Bible&#8217;s clear standard in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.

As for "God using" TB and BH, well, let's say that is debatable.

~Jim



.

You seemed to have missed the point of my post entirely.


Samson was a judge over Israel, only in that God had anointed him for the position and equipped him with a special anointing to kill Philistines. But the people were unable to trust him, and unable to look to him as an example of an Israelite that they could emulate. There is no mention of him sitting as a judge over the affairs of his fellow countrymen, nor of him helping anyone aside from the times God's special anointing would fall upon him and work God's will. Samson failed in every way possible to be the leader that the people needed -- aside from the times he got himself into trouble trying to make friends with his enemies, and the Spirit of God would come upon him and kick butt.

Learning from this example we can see the difference between someone who has the character and moral fiber to be a leader; and someone who simply is used under special circumstances by God. Those used only under special circumstances cannot be looked to as leaders during their "off" times! Yet it is important (and extremely biblical) that we acknowledge their being used by God when it is indeed Him who is anointing the individual with questionable character.



Being used by God does not automatically mean someone is a good example of what it means to live a godly lifestyle. Nor does lack of moral fiber mean that God cannot (or did not) use someone mightily.

 

[JimB]

You seemed to have missed the point of my post entirely.


Samson was a judge over Israel, only in that God had anointed him for the position and equipped him with a special anointing to kill Philistines. But the people were unable to trust him, and unable to look to him as an example of an Israelite that they could emulate. There is no mention of him sitting as a judge over the affairs of his fellow countrymen, nor of him helping anyone aside from the times God's special anointing would fall upon him and work God's will. Samson failed in every way possible to be the leader that the people needed -- aside from the times he got himself into trouble trying to make friends with his enemies, and the Spirit of God would come upon him and kick butt.

Learning from this example we can see the difference between someone who has the character and moral fiber to be a leader; and someone who simply is used under special circumstances by God. Those used only under special circumstances cannot be looked to as leaders during their "off" times! Yet it is important (and extremely biblical) that we acknowledge their being used by God when it is indeed Him who is anointing the individual with questionable character.



Being used by God does not automatically mean someone is a good example of what it means to live a godly lifestyle. Nor does lack of moral fiber mean that God cannot (or did not) use someone mightily.

Got it. Thanx.

Question. Does this go for Satan, too? Does God use Satan for his purposes?

Just askin'?

~Jim

 

[Faulty]

The Scripture says that "no man can do these miracles except God is with him". It was true for Jesus and it has always been true for anyone else who has even been used of God to perform supernatural signs and wonders. The very fact that supernatural healings and miracles have taken place with the ministries of these healing evangelists means that God was with them in spite of their personal faults and shortcomings.

Also, the devil is a liar, a very convincing liar, and he does everything he can to discredit anyone who is effectively used of God. It goes with the territory.

Christian character is given as a gift of God through His mercy and grace. The same with a supernatural ministry. He is no respecter of persons. He will bestow a supernatural ministry on anyone who is available to be used of God. No person is good; only Jesus. This is why only Jesus can heal people and perform miracles. He does this through the Holy Spirit working through men and women of God.

I view these "discernment" sites where people criticise anyone who has a supernatural ministry and call them "false prophets". My question to these criticisers is this: In whose name do you heal the sick (if you actually do)? and in whose name do YOU cast out demons?

My view is that these "discerners" of false prophets are just useless, barren wannabes who haven't got the faith to be used of God and who are envious of those who are.

I have quite a few of books on a number of sustained Marian apparitions and the messages they convey and what takes place occasionally at these sites, tongues, healings, prophecy, people slain "in the spirit", trances, people writhing on the floor, feelings of intense joy and of "fire" in parts of the body, in other words, your typical western-style revivel without the expensive-suited or biker-booted man up front.

I have a book, published in the late 60's, from the Christian Science Publishing society and it's called "A Century of Christian Science Healing". This book is nearly 250 pages long and over 200 of those pages are dedicated to the printing of letters they've received over the years of people using the Christian Science techniques and "god" instantly healing themselves, spouses, children, friends, pets, appliances, and in at least one instance, an entire herd of sheep. Each page usually contains multiple such testimonies, so I have no idea how many hundreds of "miracles" are actually in this book.

I have audio from a number of people testifying who were using occult powers to heal many people prior to their being born again, whose "gift" went away after their being born again.

These things are counterfeited. The spirits behind Jannes and Jambres are still at work. If we just accept anything supernatural as being from God, we are prime targets for deception.

 

[JEBrady]

But, JEB, isn’t every Christian “anointed.” (You really do need to read all the passages in the NT where the word occurs – CLICK HERE). If you check out the link you will readily see that no one had/has a special “anointing” to heal the sick, preach the Word, work miracles, etc. Some people obviously have the knack of self-promotion and after we read their press releases (i.e., believe their hype) we think they are special. They’re not. It’s deception, pure and simple.

~Jim

Yes, all born again believers have an anointing from the Holy One. If you are saying there's no additional spiritual equipping for specific ministries, then we'll find no common ground on this subject. If you're just having a problem with the use of the word "anointing", then I can understand that. I have no desire to argue about words. But considering in the OT that physically anointing someone with oil for a particular ministry resulted in the Spirit coming upon that person to fulfill that calling, you might understand why it's generally a universal usage in full gospel circles to refer to a ministry anointing (some folks like to call it a mantle, after Elisha, but you knew that). If you think the anointing John speaks of in 1 Jn, that all believers have, to mean there's no further spiritual equipping for a particular ministry calling- no more of the Spirit to be had, then I think that's not the case.

Paul told Timothy to stir up the gift that was in him by the laying on of Paul's hands. We aren't told what ministry gift was given him, but Timothy was a believer before he even met Paul. So whatever spiritual equipping was transferred to him by the laying on of hands came subsequent to the anointing he already had.

Paul told the Corinthians, "the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance in signs and wonders and mighty deeds". This indicates to me there are certain works of the Holy Spirit directly associated with the call of an apostle. Since not all are apostles, wouldn't it stand to reason there are certain works of the Holy Spirit that are the mark of apostleship, and that these works aren't going to be worked "with all perseverance" in those who don't have the calling?

And if a person has a particular ministry calling, and that comes with a certain spiritual equipping (ministry anointing) meaning certain persistent manifestations of the Spirit of God, and it's scriptural, then I conclude it still happens today in spite of the tomfoolery of those who are deceiving and being deceived.

I sat under a pastor who also was a prophet for 9 years. He never once referred to himself as anything except a pastor, but because he persistently moved in revelation gifts and prophecy, it dawned on me one day what he was doing. I’ve yet to see the equal of that ministry, and there were many pastoral ministries that came out of that church during the time I was there.

So the point is, I see in scripture a spiritual equipping in the power of the Holy Spirit that goes with the genuine ministry call of God. And I see that equipping, though it may be accompanied by notable miracles and spectacular works of power, to be of no additional help to the minister in his personal walk. But because we tend to regard man rather than to recognize God, we most likely put the man on a pedestal when his feet are just as much clay as our own.

 

[Tobias]

Got it. Thanx.

Question. Does this go for Satan, too? Does God use Satan for his purposes?

Just askin'?

~Jim

Yes, of course! God used the Pharaoh of Egypt too. But these are not individuals that God has set forward as examples we should follow.

What!!

Yes, ministers are called to “live it.” In fact, Paul required it in 1 Tim. 3.

1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
​

And in Titus 1:

5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you—6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. 10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. 12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
​

Either Paul was just writing to read himself to sleep or he meant what he said.

~Jim

When looking for people to elevate into a position of leadership, we can see in the verses above that integrity and godliness are key factors. But God's standards for using someone seem to follow a different pattern. Samson lost his position of being usable when he got his haircut!

I think we are looking at two entirely different things here. Being used by God can happen to anyone, and it is important for us to recognize when it happens. But finding a man with the integrity to lead a portion of the Body of Christ falls under a different set of rules, which may or may not include the occasional times when God does awesome signs and wonders through him.


This btw, is why I am so adamant in defending my observation that God used Todd Bentley. Not because I think the guy was ever a great minister according to the standards set for leaders, but because I KNOW that God ministered to me through him. Millions of other people felt it too. Yet the logic that God could not have done so because the vessel was flawed -- simply doesn't hold up to scripture.