God's foreknowledge and free will

[Cearbhall]

that we don't know the knowing confirms the theory of appearance of free will. we 'feel' free, but we're following a predetermined path. ie, robots with a little dinky pretendies software.

Again, I'm not seeing how knowledge is connected to determinism. Maybe it's because I'm looking at it more from a sci fi perspective rather than giving this hypothetical being all the attributes of the Abrahamic God.

Let's suppose that a time traveler goes to a cafe in 2026 and witnesses an event. In no way does that impact the free will of the people around them, even if they go back to 2016 and therefore know the future. The fact that they know the future choices of the people does not keep them from being freely-made choices. No more than his or her presence in a cafe in 2016 affects the free will of the other patrons. Knowledge does not give you any powers. It's not "predetermined" just because someone knows.

 

[Locutus]

It's not a contradiction.

God can foreordain that I will want to choose X and that I will choose X.
Then I choose X because I want to choose X. My choice was "free" in the sense that I made it because I wanted to make it.

once again, this is merely the APPEARANCE of free will. since you're destined to choose x, you're following programming - regardless of how it might ostensibly feel.

 

[Locutus]

Again, I'm not seeing how knowledge is connected to determinism. Maybe it's because I'm looking at it more from a sci fi perspective rather than giving this hypothetical being all the attributes of the Abrahamic God.

Let's suppose that a time traveler goes to a cafe in 2026 and witnesses an event. In no way does that impact the free will of the people around them, even if they go back to 2016 and therefore know the future. The fact that they know the future choices of the people does not keep them from being freely-made choices. No more than his or her presence in a cafe in 2016 affects the free will of the other patrons. Knowledge does not give you any powers. It's not "predetermined" just because someone knows.

as a non participating, human observer in a sci fi sense that would be so. but theists are referring to the observer who created the conditions for that moment in a café in 2026.

there's a reason we refer to the 'paradox' of time travel, and the above is one of them.

 

[Soyeong]

I see it kind of like a video game. There are certain plot points that will happen every time you play through the game, but in between those plot points you can choose to do all sorts of different actions so that no two playthroughs are exactly identical.

 

[Cearbhall]

as a non participating, human observer in a sci fi sense that would be so. but theists are referring to the observer who created the conditions for that moment in a café in 2026.

Ah, I see. You're referring purely to Christian theology. The supposed being with foreknowledge versus a being that I was imagining. Carry on.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

What people say that we have the laws of standard physics which are deterministic?
What laws of standard physics which are deterministic?

Well gravity is one, all the laws at a classical level are said to be deterministic. The analogy I heard of is if theres a re-run of the universe, in a deterministic world everything would happen the same. Drop the ball, it falls, drop the ball, it falls.

But at a quantum level, things are truly uncertain. Re-run at a quantum scale, and you have a new scenario every time.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I fail to see how random and determined are antagonists, in the first place.

See above^^

 

[quatona]

See above^^

Is the result of a lottery draw a matter of cause-effect chains, or is it random?
(Spoiler: "Random" isn´t the antagonist of determined/cause-effect. It just means that the cause-effect chains involved are so complex that we can´t predict the result).

 

[Albion]

Yes it is

No, it isn't. It's just not. The two are different concepts and the one does not necessitate the other.

One of the most common refrains I hear from Christians is that God planned everything that would ever happen. If this isn't true, then clearly this god is not Omni-everything

I sounds like you have a complaint against those Christians, then, but what they have said to you doesn't change a thing about foreknowledge and predetermination.

On the off chance this god DIDN'T plan things, and merely has foreknowledge as you claim, can you tell me if it's possible to choose something OTHER than what is foreknown?

I believe that we have to start by getting one other thing straight. When we speak of predetermination, we are NOT talking about generally planning things.

Of course, God has a plan. That's not the issue.

The issue concerns the notion that he has determined--or forced to happen--every last thing that does, in fact, happen. That's every decision you make, no matter how unrelated to faith and morals, everything. And then if we turn to predestination, that's something else again.

 

[Albion]

It does if you created the conditions for it to fall.

Nope. That would only mean that you'd created the conditions for it to fall.

That's not predeterminism.

 

[Albion]

duplicate

 

[Locutus]

Ah, I see. You're referring purely to Christian theology. The supposed being with foreknowledge versus a being that I was imagining. Carry on.

I'm only looking at the omni-everything observer, who allegedly planned everything that would ever happen

 

[Locutus]

Nope. That would only mean that you'd created the conditions for it to fall.

That's not predeterminism.

Yes, it is. If I invent every component of an experiment, then build every component, then create the conditions for the experiment to have a single, planned outcome ... it's not an experiment.

 

[Albion]

Yes, it is.

Apparently, nothing we can say here will make you understand the meaning of these terms, so I won't bother giving it another try. The people who use them in their churches, seminaries, sermons, etc. do understand them, however, and I'm certain you can tap that information if you're interested.

I did note, though, that you altered your position after my last post, so maybe you will decide to look more closely into it after all.

 

[Locutus]

No, it isn't. It's just not. The two are different concepts and the one does not necessitate the other.


I sounds like you have a complaint against those Christians, then, but what they have said to you doesn't change a thing about foreknowledge and predetermination.


I believe that we have to start by getting one other thing straight. When we speak of predetermination, we are NOT talking about generally planning things.

Of course, God has a plan. That's not the issue.

The issue concerns the notion that he has determined--or forced to happen--every last thing that does, in fact, happen. That's every decision you make, no matter how unrelated to faith and morals, everything. And then if we turn to predestination, that's something else again.

Here's what Christians tell me. God knows every hair on your head, every thought, every action. He knows because he planned them all before he even began creating. He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

That scenario only allows for the appearance of free will, which we have simply because we don't know what's been planned for us.

And foreKNOWLEDGE is just that. Knowledge. As in, the outcome is already determined. Anything else is assumption or guesswork - and I'm willing to bet few Christians would want to promote the idea that their god is 'uncertain'.

 

[Locutus]

Apparently, nothing we can say here will make you understand the meaning of these terms, so I won't bother giving it another try. The people who use them in their churches, seminaries, sermons, etc. do understand them, however, and I'm certain you can tap that information if you're interested.

I did note, though, that you altered your position after my last post, so maybe you will decide to look more closely into it after all.

Changed my position? I think not. I've called the notion of free will (given an omni-everything god) bogus for a long time.

Unless your seminarians are smart enough to see how much trouble the claim of omni-everything causes, it's unlikely they'd have anything useful for me.

 

[Albion]

Here's what Christians tell me. God knows every hair on your head, every thought, every action. He knows because he planned them all before he even began creating. He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

That scenario only allows for the appearance of free will

Says you. You extrapolated from what those unidentified Christians said to you, that's all.

There's no reason you must be correct in your assumption OR that Christianity itself ought to agree with you.

 

[Albion]

Unless your seminarians are smart enough to see how much trouble the claim of omni-everything causes, it's unlikely they'd have anything useful for me.

You can suit yourself, of course. However, you offer me alleged conversations with unidentified "Christians," as though that's supposed to mean something....yet the suggestion of you turning to actual experts in the field causes you to say you're not interested.

That tells me a lot.

 

[Locutus]

Says you. You extrapolated from what those unidentified Christians said to you, that's all.

There's no reason you must be correct in your assumption OR that Christianity itself ought to agree with you.

I've had pastors tell me this, and pretty much every protestant I've asked.

I'm happy to stand corrected though - so let me know. Is your god NOT omni-everything? and did he NOT plan everything that would ever happen? Can god, in fact, be surprised? uncertain? have his plans upset?

 

[tulipbee]

I think I have the right forum thread for this one. Please move the thread if it belongs somewhere else.

Okay this will be a debate concerning God's foreknowledge of what will happen and if we have free will vs everything is predestined/determined.

God knows that in 50 years on a given Sunday you will go out and mow the grass. When that Sunday in 50 years comes along, you decide to watch football instead of mowing the grass.

Does this make God false? Did God know you would decide otherwise? Do you have free will to make this kind of decision? Does the scenario even apply to God's foreknowledge and our ability to have free-will or is everything determined already?

For me God would know you would not mow the yard when the time came. The question arises when does God know what the outcome will be? God always knew? God knew just before you decided? What questions does this raise about God being in control?

God knew you would watch football. God knew you would think God is stupid. Now go watch football