God's commands? Are they immoral?

[Skavau]

You seem to have me confused with someone who justifies genocide torture and rape.

I condone none of the above. In fact I am firmly against them all.

Except of course, when God does it or asks for it.

Then you're all in favour. You are a genocidal, torture and (though I have not seen it yet but I do not doubt it) if so called for a rape apologist. You have the capacity for anything so long as you think God asks for it.

 

[Elioenai26]

Except of course, when God does it or asks for it.

Then you're all in favour. You are a genocidal, torture and (though I have not seen it yet but I do not doubt it) if so called for a rape apologist. You have the capacity for anything so long as you think God asks for it.

Not at all..

I cannot think of one instance where God commanded people to be killed for evil reasons.

I cannot think of one instance where God commanded someone to be raped.

I cannot thing of one instance where God has condoned or commanded torture. Not one.

 

[Skavau]

God is in heaven and does what He wills.

God's location is irrelevant. A claim stands on its own regardless of the location of the one who makes it.

God is Holy, you are not.

You would always call God "Holy" no matter what he asked.

God is Righteous, you are not.

You would always call God "Righteous" no matter what he asked.

God is Love, you are not.

You would always call God "Love" no matter what he asked.

God is Wrath, you are not.

God is a Consuming Fire, you are not.

I fail to see how these are positive traits.

God is omniscient, you are not.

This would be relevant, but alas claims are demonstrated on their merits. All this tells me is that God can demonstrate his claims but will not.

 

[Skavau]

Not at all..

I cannot think of one instance where God commanded people to be killed for evil reasons.

Yet God could kill anyone for any reason or none at all and you would be there declaring them as good reasons.

I cannot thing of one instance where God has condoned or commanded torture. Not one.

Hell. The place you believe every non-Christian is going.

 

[HitchSlap]

You seem to have me confused with someone who justifies genocide torture and rape.

I condone none of the above. In fact I am firmly against them all.

Too bad you claim to be a servant of a biblegod who is not firmly against those things. Despicable.

 

[Elioenai26]

I would interpret this as respect the rights of others as you would wish your rights to be respected. That is not a unique concept solely found within the Judeo-Christian worldview.


Incorrect.

One can still make moral claims and argue their validity and utility without the existence of God. That you think God is responsible for codifying our predisposition towards moral values is irrelevant.

In any case you have already demonstrated that you don't actually believe in objective moral values or duties. You only have one moral value. You believe God can do what he likes and you follow him regardless. That is might equals right. That is not even moral but an example of twisted masochistic servitude.


A meaningless affirmation. No matter what God does, no matter how many he torments or destroys you would never describe it as an "atrocity". It is why no-one can take you seriously when you describe God as "Holy, righteous, just" because those are attributes you bestow him regardless of what he does. They have no meaning to you. They are empty platitudes.


Of course, according to you the "wicked" is merely anyone God chooses to judge negatively. Meaningless.


Of course, according to you God is always "Holy".


I am staring in the face of moral subjectivism.


Of course, God could inflict any punishment or reward he likes and you would always describe it as well-deserved.

Words have no meaning to you.

Only what God has said is meaningful....beyond that, it is futility.

 

[Elioenai26]

Too bad you claim to be a servant of a biblegod who is not firmly against those things. Despicable.

I am Christian. I am a follower of Jesus Christ not whoever this "biblegod" character it is you keep referring to.

 

[Skavau]

Only what God has said is meaningful....beyond that, it is futility.

My point exactly.

You don't condemn rape because of what rape is but because God tells you to.

You don't condemn torture because of what torture is but because God tells you to.

You don't condemn murder because of what murder is but because God tells you to.

You only call God holy, just, righteous because he declares himself so. Morality is meaningless to you. A charade. Might equals right, eh?

 

[HitchSlap]

I am Christian. I am a follower of Jesus Christ not whoever this "biblegod" character it is you keep referring to.

Yeah, that's what I said.

 

[Elioenai26]

My point exactly.

You don't condemn rape because of what rape is but because God tells you to.

You don't condemn torture because of what torture is but because God tells you to.

You don't condemn murder because of what murder is but because God tells you to.

You only call God holy, just, righteous because he declares himself so. Morality is meaningless to you. A charade. Might equals right, eh?

That is right. God is Almighty. I would not have known what was evil or good unless God had made me capable of knowing it.

I worship God, I do not worship you or your opinions. If that hurts your pride or your feelings, then that is something you need to deal with.

 

[quatona]

I would agree, that would be a problem.

Fine. So finally you have grasped at least one element of my line of reasoning.

What are you even talking about?

You know very well what I am talking about. It has been one of your favourite tactics for a long time.

Not if one takes into account the context of the command. Something you do not do. Something I do.

Ok. So since you posit that the moral value of genocide depends on the circumstances you are appealing to a relative morality. Thus, your entire talk about absolute morality is out of the window.

When reading the Bible we learn that God is sovereign.

Which means that God can do whatever God wishes to do no matter what you or me or whoever thinks about it, right?

If you do not like that then that is a personal problem.

You started your post so good, and now you are back at your ordinary strawmanning. :weep:
Whether it´s to my liking or not has at no point been part of my argument. Point of my argument has been what this means for the consistency of the body of your reasonings.

And here I need to remind you of the context from which you isolated a certain statement and made a new thread of it in order to prevent the contradictions in your positions from becoming all too apparent.

The question back then was "Would you sacrifice your child if God commanded you to?" Do you remember what your answer was?
Now go and try to reconcile your answer with your most recent appeal to God´s sovereignity.

Your appeal to God´s sovereignity disables any assertion of the sort "I know God wouldn´t command this, God wouldn´t command that." You don´t know squat. God is sovereign and you are not in the position to question his judgements. You are not in the position to judge whether a person or group is "wicked".
If God tells you that someone is "wicked" and needs to be killed you will have to do it. It´s not your place to judge whether God´s judgement is right or isn´t. It is right, by your very definition.

And since, so far, you haven´t presented any compelling reason to believe that the God you are talking to exists anywhere else than in your mind, this makes you a potential and uncalculable threat to everyone else. We have to fear - just like we have with Jihadists and other religious zealots - that at some point you will hear a voice in your head telling you to go out and kill, and you - determined to be obedient to that voice no matter what - will do it. And if the voice in your head told you that the Holocaust was justified because the German Jews were "wicked" you would come here and defend it.

Views such as yours (i.e. the absolute will to obedience towards an allegedly sovereign entity of your imagination, regardless of what it may command) are a threat to the human community.

 

[HitchSlap]

That is right. God is Almighty. I would not have known what was evil or good unless God had made me capable of knowing it.

And you call yourself a "skeptic?"

 

[Skavau]

That is right. God is Almighty. I would not have known what was evil or good unless God had made me capable of knowing it.

I worship God, I do not worship you or your opinions. If that hurts your pride or your feelings, then that is something you need to deal with.

So much for objective morality, eh?

Glad you are not hiding it anymore.

 

[Elioenai26]

Fine. So finally you have grasped at least one element of my line of reasoning.





You know very well what I am talking about. It has been one of your favourite tactics for a long time.





Ok. So since you posit that the moral value of genocide depends on the circumstances you are appealing to a relative morality. Thus, your entire talk about absolute morality is out of the window.




Which means that God can do whatever God wishes to do no matter what you or me or whoever thinks about it, right?


You started your post so good, and now you are back at your ordinary strawmanning. :weep:
Whether it´s to my liking or not has at no point been part of my argument. Point of my argument has been what this means for the consistency of the body of your reasonings.

And here I need to remind you of the context from which you isolated a certain statement and made a new thread of it in order to prevent the contradictions in your positions from becoming all too apparent.

The question back then was "Would you sacrifice your child if God commanded you to?" Do you remember what your answer was?
Now go and try to reconcile your answer with your most recent appeal to God´s sovereignity.

Your appeal to God´s sovereignity disables any assertion of the sort "God wouldn´t command this, God wouldn´t command that."
If God tells you that someone is wicked and needs to be killed you will have to do it. It´s not your place to judge whether God´s judgement is right or isn´t. It is right, by your very definition.

And since, so far, you haven´t presented any compelling reason to believe that the God you are talking to exists anywhere else than in your mind, this makes you a potential and uncalculable threat to everyone else. We have to fear - just like we have with Jihadists and other religious zealots - that at some point you will hear a voice in your head telling you to go out and kill, and you - determined to be obedient to that voice no matter what - will do it. And if the voice in your head told you that the Holocaust was justified because the German Jews were "wicked" you would come here and defend it.

Views such as yours (i.e. the absolute will to obedience towards an allegedly sovereign entity of your imagination, regardless of what it may command) are a threat to the human community.

Give me one reason to think that Christ would command me to do what you say and I will entertain your line of reasoning.

Christians are not the one's you need to be concerned about.....unless you are concerned and worried about people who seek to life lives modeled after Jesus Christ.

 

[HitchSlap]

So much for objective morality, eh?

Glad you are not hiding it anymore.

What is it called when a grown adult states that they wouldn't know anything unless someone else told them what to think?

 

[Elioenai26]

So much for objective morality, eh?

Glad you are not hiding it anymore.

God's commands that issue from His nature are objective for us. I have never said they were objective for God, that would not even make sense.....

 

[Skavau]

God's commands that issue from His nature are objective for us. I have never said they were objective for God, that would not even make sense.....

No, you mean they are binding towards us. That God may punish us for breaching his commands. That is not the same as being objective.

The point about all of this that is sinister though is that by everything you've said, if God materialised and told you to murder - you would do it. For all of your moral values derive solely from God's might you would murder if you thought God told you to do it.

That is what is frightening.

 

[Elioenai26]

What is it called when a grown adult states that they wouldn't know anything unless someone else told them what to think?

Did I say I would'nt know anything unless God told me what to think?

No...so why are you saying that I did?

 

[Elioenai26]

No, you mean they are binding towards us. That God may punish us for breaching his commands. That is not the same as being objective.

The point about all of this that is sinister though is that by everything you've said, if God materialised and told you to murder - you would do it. For all of your moral values derive solely from God's might you would murder if you thought God told you to do it.

That is what is frightening.

I do not have to worry about that. So I am not frightened at all.

Got anything else?

 

[Skavau]

I do not have to worry about that. So I am not frightened at all.

Got anything else?

You might not be frightened, but I can assure you everyone else is.

But curiously you did not answer the implied question nor even state what you would do. If God asked you to murder would you do it?