God's character and our accountability?

[visualreferences]

God does not cause Himself displeasure in the death of the wicked. He takes no pleasure in it and does show how insane it is to continue in rebellion but it is just and right that God should punish sin. His righteousness and justness is glorified in the death of the wicked. Also the word pleasure in the Ezek. passage I believe can be correctly rendered satisfaction. He finds no satisfaction in the death of the wicked. Their eternal torment can never satisfy God's righteous justice. That is why damnation is eternal.

Do you mean to say that God is saying it doesn't please him because not even an eternity of torment cannot satisfy His justice? I think that's stretching the meaning of the passage - which I think has more to do with redemption.

[On a side note, if you think that eternal damnation can never satisfy God's justice, then what do you think the purpose of it is? If it doesn't satisfy Him, how does it glorify Him?]

Or do you mean to say that He neither has pleasure nor displeasure in the death of the wicked? I don't think He's indifferent about it either. He says He has no pleasure in seeing the wicked die and would rather see them turn from their ways - be redeemed.

We are responsible because unbelief is to call God a liar. 1John 5:10 God's gracious choice to save some is amazing in the fact that we all deserve to go to eternal torment. He was and is never under any obligation to save any. Those He leaves in their sin get exactly the reward they have been working so hard for. Christ not only said you cannot come to me but that you will not come to me. John 6:44, 5:40

And where does belief come from? Isn't it a direct result of God's grace in filling us with His Holy Spirit? And if even our belief, which many might take for granted (think of all of those who do not believe), is caused by God's gracious decision and His alone, how are those who do not have it at fault? Is it something they did different? No, it cannot be or belief would come from Him as a wage for something you did, and it would not be grace. So if not of anything they do, how are they responsible?

We owe a debt of obedience to God as our Creator and it doesn't matter if we have never been give the ability to pay or not.

Why doesn't it matter? As our Creator we owe Him our existence, yes, but why would He ask of us what He knows He has not given us? I don't understand how this fits His character.

Again, I thank everyone here who has contributed for taking the time to try and help.

 

[Erinwilcox]

I think that one must keep in mind that it is merciful of God to save us. He doesn't owe man anything. . .He is GOD ALMIGHTY, the Alpha and the Omega, the Creator of the Universe. The salvation that He grants to man is a result of His mercy. You need to stop focusing on what you think God hasn't done and begin thanking Him for what He has done. . .granted your hell-deserving soul salvation. If man had not sinned in the Garden, then all men would be able to perfectly keep the law of God, thus all men would go to heaven. However, man did sin--man's fault. Thus, by the sin of one man all men were made sinners. Thus, all men became hell-bound. However, God in His infinite mercy, chose to save some of those who hated Him (yes, if one does not love God then one hates God). It is man's fault that men are sinful, man's fault that all men are now deserving of hell, man's fault that all men naturally hate God. God chose to save some of the God-haters. He chose to grant them mercy through the death of His son. So, rather than condemn God for not choosing all men (He didn't have to save any, it was man who fell from the state of perfect grace in the first place), praise Him for having mercy on some rather than allowing them to be tortured in Hell as they deserve! How awesome is it that God would choose to send His Son to die as a propitiation for the sins of those who had deliberately chosen to sin against Him! God didn't have to save men! He doesn't owe man anything, but He had mercy on some of those who reviled Him! Praise the Lord for His goodness, do not condemn what is not given to us to understand! Reread Romans 9 for the answer that Paul gave to those who asked the very same questions!

 

[mlqurgw]

Do you mean to say that God is saying it doesn't please him because not even an eternity of torment cannot satisfy His justice? I think that's stretching the meaning of the passage - which I think has more to do with redemption.

[On a side note, if you think that eternal damnation can never satisfy God's justice, then what do you think the purpose of it is? If it doesn't satisfy Him, how does it glorify Him?]

Or do you mean to say that He neither has pleasure nor displeasure in the death of the wicked? I don't think He's indifferent about it either. He says He has no pleasure in seeing the wicked die and would rather see them turn from their ways - be redeemed.



And where does belief come from? Isn't it a direct result of God's grace in filling us with His Holy Spirit? And if even our belief, which many might take for granted (think of all of those who do not believe), is caused by God's gracious decision and His alone, how are those who do not have it at fault? Is it something they did different? No, it cannot be or belief would come from Him as a wage for something you did, and it would not be grace. So if not of anything they do, how are they responsible?




Why doesn't it matter? As our Creator we owe Him our existence, yes, but why would He ask of us what He knows He has not given us? I don't understand how this fits His character.

Again, I thank everyone here who has contributed for taking the time to try and help.

I am beginning to think you are asking questions so that you can tell us your answers. I do not think it can be expalined more simply than it has already been. If you are truly struggling with God's sovereignty and man's responsibility then I would suggest you re-read the posts and think hard about them. If you are only interested in a debate then I am done.

 

[visualreferences]

I am beginning to think you are asking questions so that you can tell us your answers.

I have no answers, that is why I am here.

I do not think it can be expalined more simply than it has already been.

It's not a simple matter, though.

 

[mlqurgw]

I have no answers, that is why I am here.

OK I accept that, only you are asking the same questions. Instead of trying to dissect it you need to bow to its truth.



It's not a simple matter, though.[/QUOTE]Sure it is if you ever see it. God is absolutely sovereign and has the right to do what He will with His own and man is responsible because He is a creature of God and he sins willfully. If you ever see God as He really is and man as he really is you will have no problem.

 

[visualreferences]

OK I accept that, only you are asking the same questions.

Because the answers don't reconcile the problem I'm having.

God is absolutely sovereign and has the right to do what He will with His own

Yes! This is a characteristic of God, as are righteousness and being just - I don't think they're compromised by His power.

and man is responsible because He is a creature of God and he sins willfully.

Here it is. Willfully? Can we do what God wants, but decide not to? Does our nature allow us live without sin? I'm having a very difficult time reconciling our responsibility for not doing something God did not make us capable of doing.

Instead of trying to dissect it you need to bow to its truth.

I'm sorry but if less people bowed their heads without understanding a lot less people would fall to false teachings.

 

[mlqurgw]

Because the answers don't reconcile the problem I'm having.



Yes! This is a characteristic of God, as are righteousness and being just - I don't think they're compromised by His power.



Here it is. Willfully? Can we do what God wants, but decide not to? Does our nature allow us live without sin? I'm having a very difficult time reconciling our responsibility for not doing something God did not make us capable of doing.




I'm sorry but if less people bowed their heads without understanding a lot less people would fall to false teachings.

Man does have a will. That will is in bondage to sin in the unregenerate. We do what we do because we want to not because God forces us against our will. We make choices and either enjoy the benifit or suffer the consequences of our choices all exactly according to the purpose and plan of God. We are not robots or puppets on a string. When they killed Jesus they did it because they wanted to but did it according to the will and purpose of God. Acts 2:22,23

Prov. 16 is a very instructive passage concerning this. Especially verses 1, 4,9,33.

As far as bowing goes, are we to refuse to bow to that which is clearly revealed in the Scriptures even though it goes against what we think or what we have been taught all our lives? Certainly we must seek to know if it is something that is taught in the Scriptures but once we find it is we must bow to it whether we agree with it or not. To refuse to bow to something that we know the Scritures teach simply because we don't understand it is rebellion.

 

[visualreferences]

Man does have a will. That will is in bondage to sin in the unregenerate. We do what we do because we want to not because God forces us against our will. We make choices and either enjoy the benifit or suffer the consequences of our choices all exactly according to the purpose and plan of God. We are not robots or puppets on a string. When they killed Jesus they did it because they wanted to but did it according to the will and purpose of God. Acts 2:22,23

Prov. 16 is a very instructive passage concerning this. Especially verses 1, 4,9,33.

So God, although sovereign, does not dictate our actions nor did He cause it in His creation of man (or now) but rather allows for it? You can 'allow' your alcoholic friend to go drinking night after night but at the end of the week he's still responsible.

I'll be sure to check the passage you've mentioned too.

Thank you for your continued help.

 

[mlqurgw]

So God, although sovereign, does not dictate our actions nor did He cause it in His creation of man (or now) but rather allows for it? You can 'allow' your alcoholic friend to go drinking night after night but at the end of the week he's still responsible.

I'll be sure to check the passage you've mentioned too.

Thank you for your continued help.

God purposed and ordained everything that happens. He brings what He has ordained to pass by absolute control of every influence, circumstance and even the very thoughts of the heart. I wholeheartedly believe that God ordained that the fall of man happen and controlled the event to bring to pass exactly what happened in the way it did. God controls all the circumstances that influence us to make choices the way we do. He doesn't, however make the choice for us. I willingly chose Christ because God made me see I had no other choice. I did so because He first chose me to be an object of His love. Faith in Christ is a gift of God but He didn't believe for me.

 

[visualreferences]

He doesn't, however make the choice for us.

If this is true then I think it's pretty easy to understand - if we're making a choice we're responsible. What's difficult to understand, however, is how God can exert His absolute control over even the thoughts of our heart, as you say, and not be making the choice for us.

Do you see the problem I'm having? [understanding this]

I willingly chose Christ because God made me see I had no other choice.

If you had no other choice, then you didn't choose, though, did you? How does one make a choice without having choices?

 

[mlqurgw]

If this is true then I think it's pretty easy to understand - if we're making a choice we're responsible. What's difficult to understand, however, is how God can exert His absolute control over even the thoughts of our heart, as you say, and not be making the choice for us.

Do you see the problem I'm having? [understanding this]

He isn't making our choice but ensuring we take the choice He has purposed. Controlling what influences us is not the same as making our choice. We do choose but we do it according to what God has purposed.

If you had no other choice, then you didn't choose, though, did you? How does one make a choice without having choices?

There was another choice: perish in Hell forever. I say I had no other choice because only faith in Christ was the reasonable one. I never saw that until He made me see it. He made me see what I was in myself and thereby caused me to make the choice for life.