Godlessness and choice

[bhsmte]

The cleansing and removal of shame and guilt that I experienced when I did. The effects wrought by repentance and regeneration are the evidences of this transformtaive and divine work

All opinion, based on personal experience. That is all cool if it works for you, but you have presented zero evidence as to why it would apply to others.

 

[Dave Ellis]

The cleansing and removal of shame and guilt that I experienced when I did. The effects wrought by repentance and regeneration are the evidences of this transformtaive and divine work

The fact you don't feel shame or guilt anymore doesn't mean Jesus is responsible. It just means you don't feel shame or guilt.

If you harmed someone and made good on it, that's a good reason to no longer feel shame or guilt.

If you didn't make good on it and just assumed Jesus has forgiven you, then you should still feel shame and guilt. The person who was actually harmed is still unaddressed.

Either way, Jesus forgiveness is irrelevant. The person who was harmed is what matters.

So why assume Jesus forgiveness matters in your day to day life?

 

[anonymous person]

Reliable data, hard evidence to support it as fact. Something that can be objectively verified, outside of personal opinion.

Data has to be interpreted.

And what is objectively verifiable will depend on what one considers such a notion to entail

 

[bhsmte]

Data has to be interpreted.

And what is objectively verifiable will depend on what one considers such a notion to entail

More evasion.

 

[anonymous person]

The fact you don't feel shame or guilt anymore doesn't mean Jesus is responsible. It just means you don't feel shame or guilt.

If you harmed someone and made good on it, that's a good reason to no longer feel shame or guilt.

If you didn't make good on it and just assumed Jesus has forgiven you, then you should still feel shame and guilt. The person who was actually harmed is still unaddressed.

Either way, Jesus forgiveness is irrelevant. The person who was harmed is what matters.

So why assume Jesus forgiveness matters in your day to day life?

This is like saying that when a doctor gives a sick person some medicine that cures them that them being cured doesn't mean that the doctor gave them the medicine, it just means they have been cured.

That's silly.

If I had shame and guilt before I asked God for forgiveness, and then afterwards, I was cleansed and was free of guilt and shame, then I'm going to see that as evidence that God is true and faithful to do what He promised.

You can't accept this because you assume that Jesus does not forgive sins or cleanse us from guilt and shame that comes with them. Heck, to you, the whole notion of sin makes no sense. You don't believe a God exists who can be sinned against.

Which is why I emphasize, we interpret data according to certain assumptions we have about reality. You have to be open to the notion that God exists and that we are actually morally accountable to Him before what I am saying makes sense to you.

 

[anonymous person]

More evasion.

Is it a fact that Julius Caesar was killed by members of the Roman Senate?

 

[bhsmte]

This is like saying that when a doctor gives a sick person some medicine that cures them that them being cured doesn't mean that the doctor gave them the medicine, it just means they have been cured.

That's silly.

If I had shame and guilt before I asked God for forgiveness, and then afterwards, I was cleansed and was free of guilt and shame, then I'm going to see that as evidence that God is true and faithful to do what He promised.

You can't accept this because you assume that Jesus does not forgive sins or cleanse us from guilt and shame that comes with them. Heck, to you, the whole notion of sin makes no sense. You don't believe a God exists who can be sinned against.

Which is why I emphasize, we interpret data according to certain assumptions we have about reality. You have to be open to the notion that God exists and that we are actually morally accountable to Him before what I am saying makes sense to you.

It is easy to provide reliable evidence of this medicine, which was prescribed and taken by the patient. We even have evidence, of the mechanism of how this medicine works in the body.

Comparing a claim that some entity forgave your sins and you no longer feel guilt, to taking a medicine internally and is physical, is way beyond a reach.

 

[bhsmte]

Is it a fact that Julius Caesar was killed by members of the Roman Senate?

Not relevant and you should know that.

 

[anonymous person]

It is easy to provide reliable evidence of this medicine, which was prescribed and taken by the patient. We even have evidence, of the mechanism of how this medicine works in the body.

Comparing a claim that some entity forgave your sins and you no longer feel guilt, to taking a medicine internally and is physical, is way beyond a reach.

Its beyond reach because God has to reveal such things to us. It was beyond reach for me as well before I was convicted of my sins and convinced of my need for justification before God through Christ.

 

[anonymous person]

Not relevant and you should know that.

Sure it is.

I want to see how you come tonthe conclusion of what is a fact and what is not.

 

[bhsmte]

Its beyond reach because God has to reveal such things to us. It was beyond reach for me as well before I was convicted of my sins and convinced of my need for justification before God through Christ.

What God? Why would I assume this God exists?

 

[bhsmte]

Sure it is.

I want to see how you come tonthe conclusion of what is a fact and what is not.

Asked and answered.

 

[anonymous person]

Asked and answered.

If only it were that simple when it came to such issues.

Tell me, why is it that 12 jurors on a trial jury can all look at the same evidence and yet come to different conclusions about what it means?

 

[Dave Ellis]

This is like saying that when a doctor gives a sick person some medicine that cures them that them being cured doesn't mean that the doctor gave them the medicine, it just means they have been cured.

That's silly.

If I had shame and guilt before I asked God for forgiveness, and then afterwards, I was cleansed and was free of guilt and shame, then I'm going to see that as evidence that God is true and faithful to do what He promised.

You can't accept this because you assume that Jesus does not forgive sins or cleanse us from guilt and shame that comes with them. Heck, to you, the whole notion of sin makes no sense. You don't believe a God exists who can be sinned against.

Which is why I emphasize, we interpret data according to certain assumptions we have about reality. You have to be open to the notion that God exists and that we are actually morally accountable to Him before what I am saying makes sense to you.

We know medicine works though, we confirm the effectiveness of medicine through thorough testing, double blind studies, and a number of other methods. We have nothing of the sort with your situation.

All you have is the belief that god has forgiven you, that's it. There's no way to confirm it, even if you're feeling super happy.

Believing god has forgiven you is enough to make you feel guilt free, it doesn't matter if god has actually forgiven you, or if god actually exists. Your belief is all that matters. Of course you're going to feel better if you believe you've been forgiven.

Hence, this is not evidence. You need to be able to demonstrate you've actually been forgiven by the god in question for it to count.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Is it a fact that Julius Caesar was killed by members of the Roman Senate?

Even more evasion.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Sure it is.

I want to see how you come tonthe conclusion of what is a fact and what is not.

How about you actually attempt to show what you've claimed you know to be true, and we can either critique or accept what you have to say? Your argument should stand or fall on its own merit.

Julius Caesar has nothing to do with what you claimed. History is history, many aspects we don't know with 100% certainty. Many we know with a high degree of confidence, it depends on the available evidence and the veracity of the evidence.

You claimed your decisions will have eternal ramifications, and you know your view is right and mine is wrong. That's not talking history, that's talking future. Eternal future to be exact. How do you know your decisions will have eternal ramifications? Show your evidence and quit evading.

 

[Ed1wolf]

I guess then there´s nothing presuppositional about declaring them false, either.

Just declaring them false doesn't prove they are.

 

[Ed1wolf]

I've come across this argument before. I think Ravi Zacharias makes a big deal out of it. He says the mind cannot come about from a material source as if that is a sacred law that you cannot disagree with. I don't see why not.

These people together with the woomeister Deepak Chopra treat the mind as if it were some magical thing. But the mind is nothing more than the product of the brain which is material. To say that the mind is independent of the brain, one must show evidence that the mind can survive the brain. If you can't show such evidence, it's pure speculation.

Ultimately, I wish my fellow Christians won't prolong our agony. We haven't got the smallest logical leg to stand on. Sometimes, it's our pride and ego that prevent us from admitting this. We feel foolish when atheists tell us our faith is illogical. But if we truly believe that it's Christ who must increase and we decrease, we won't have this horrible pride and ego any more. Then atheists will find it easier to talk to us because we won't have this obstinate refusal to admit our faith is illogical when it so obviously is. It is wisdom to capitulate when we clearly have no ground to fight. Otherwise, atheists will rightly think we are idiots who can't understand their rational arguments. The fact is we can see they are logical but our egos won't let us admit that.

Cheers,

St Truth

I notice you were unable to refute anything I posted especially how the universe is based on mathematics. There is evidence the mind is not physical. Show me a picture of the mind. Show me a slice of the mind. I have not denied that atheists cannot be logical. My argument is just that Christianity is MORE logical than atheism. We do have to be careful not to think we are superior to atheists of course. And if you debate them just for your ego that is plainly wrong. But rather we are obeying Paul and Christ when we have a ready answer to those who are seeking the truth. Since God is the personification of logic, ie the Logos, He of course can be shown to be logical in everything He does in most cases. Of course, there are some mysteries which is to be expected. Also, the mind can reason logically, but if the mind is purely physical then it operates according to the laws of physics and chemistry not the laws of logic. And we know that the product of chemical reactions are determined by the ratio of the reagents. So if the brain is just based on chemistry then it cannot reason. And cannot weigh evidence or arguments. In addition, if the mind is purely physical then we don't have free will for the same reason. And there is evidence from NDEs that the mind can survive possible death. I understand all the atheists "rational" arguments. I have been debating them for 25 years.

 

[Ed1wolf]

You're shifting the burden of proof here.

The fact they haven't refuted it is irrelevant. The fact there's no evidence to back it, when we have evidence that supports an alternate explanation is what matters.

Huh? The fact that we can reason logically is evidence to back it. Also, the fact that it strongly appears we have free will.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Huh? The fact that we can reason logically is evidence to back it. Also, the fact that it strongly appears we have free will.

How is that at all evidence for a god? It's a total non sequitur.