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anonymous person

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What else would it bd interpreted by? Lets say you go to one doctor and they just ask you questions and look at you and they state; my senses are telling me you have lung cancer. Then, you go toba second doctor, who runs diagnostic tests, blood, ct scan and tissue biopsy and they state there is no cancer present. Who's interpretations will you rely on? The doctor who did zero diagnostic tests, or the one who ran several tests, that determine if cancer is present?
I don't think you understand what I am arguing.

I am not arguing that our senses are not reliable.

I am arguing that we can't prove they are reliable empirically, nor can we get outside of our senses and stand between them and reality as it is to ascertain whether or not they are providing us with an accurate account of said reality, and that therefore anyone who appeals to science as a means of acquiring knowledge, like you do and like many atheists do, believes in something i.e. the veridicality of their senses, which the scientific method cannot account for.

This is stuff you find in introductory textbooks on philosophy and philosophy of science.

Do you understand what I am saying?
 
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anonymous person

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You don't actually seem to be saying anything, apart from taking us on a trip of circular reasoning. and oddly are helping the non believers case more than yours.

If you are saying that we cannot objectively trust evidence of our senses, no matter how much external proof , then why do you believe in anything at all ?
Or are you saying we should trust our senses ?

How do you yourself determine if your senses are reliable or not ?

You have mistaken my argument because you associate trusting in something with being able to prove that something via some empirical means.

I am not arguing that our senses are not reliable or that they are not trustworthy. I maintain that they are.

I am arguing that YOU CANNOT PROVE EMPIRICALLY that they are because if you attempt to, you would be arguing in a circle.

Over and over again I hear people saying they can't or won't believe something unless there is verifiable evidence or objective evidence for it, and then the same people will turn around and appeal to science or what scientists say.

Such people are contradicting themselves.
 
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bhsmte

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I don't think you understand what I am arguing.

I am not arguing that our senses are not reliable.

I am arguing that we can't prove they are reliable empirically, nor can we get outside of our senses and stand between them and reality as it is to ascertain whether or not they are providing us with an accurate account of said reality, and that therefore anyone who appeals to science as a means of acquiring knowledge, like you do and like many atheists do, believes in something i.e. the veridicality of their senses, which the scientific method cannot account for.

This is stuff you find in introductory textbooks on philosophy and philosophy of science.

Do you understand what I am saying?

Which doctor provided the best empirical evidence for their conclusion, based on their senses? The one who performed diagnostic tests, or the one who didnt?
 
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possibletarian

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You have mistaken my argument because you associate trusting in something with being able to prove that something via some empirical means.

I am not arguing that our senses are not reliable or that they are not trustworthy. I maintain that they are.

I am arguing that YOU CANNOT PROVE EMPIRICALLY that they are because if you attempt to, you would be arguing in a circle.

Over and over again I hear people saying they can't or won't believe something unless there is verifiable evidence or objective evidence for it, and then the same people will turn around and appeal to science or what scientists say.

Such people are contradicting themselves.

I think you running round in circles empirical evidence does not mean 'apart from the mind' of course all evidence is filtered through the mind.

Lets see what it means:

Cambridge Dictionary:
based on what is experienced or seen rather than on theory:
This theory needs to be backed up with solid empirical data/evidence.
Empirical studies show that some forms of alternative medicine are extremely effective.

When a person asks for empirical evidence they are not asking for information that does not pass through the mind. They are saying that in order for their minds to accept something as true, they need more information than they currently have.

So when an atheist or a member of any other religion ask for empirical evidence they are simply asking for more information because so far you have provided too little, or in the case of a god, non at all.

When you talk about people having 'faith' in science, they do so simply because it provides more information that can be verified, rather than faith (in this case in god) that is simply an unsupported statement.
 
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anonymous person

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Which doctor provided the best empirical evidence for their conclusion, based on their senses? The one who performed diagnostic tests, or the one who didnt?

The doctor that ran tests provided empirical evidence. The other doctor didn't provide any empirical evidence. So I wouldn't say it was a matter of who provided the best evidence at all. It is a matter of one providing none and the other providing some.

I would personally accept the conclusion of the doctor who provided empirical tests, but not solely because he had empirical evidence. Another reason why I would accept his conclusion is that it is an agreeable conclusion. It is easy to accept a verdict of being cancer free because that is what everyone wants to hear. So there are existential and psychological factors involved in my accepting his conclusions too.

Some people can be provided empirical test after test that they do have cancer and they will not accept it and insist on getting 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th opinions until they keel over from cancer.

So while I think your illustration can serve a purpose, it also raises other significant questions.

Some have concluded that they will not accept any evidence for Christianity, empirical or otherwise because they just don't like Christianity.

Some don't need any evidence at all because they like Christianity.

There are accounts of people admitting that their appeals to a lack of empirical evidence or their misgivings about the notion of faith were smokescreens for not being a Christian. In other words, those reasons they gave to people for not being a Christian were not the real reasons. All of the accounts share a similar component. Some perceived injustice had led them to think that Christianity was a bunch of hogwash and they found no trouble in coming up with reasons that sounded intellectual for their unbelief. Sometimes this injustice was something they saw, sometimes it was something they experienced personally.

While I do not ascribe such motivations to every unbeliever, it does give one pause to think.
 
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bhsmte

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The doctor that ran tests provided empirical evidence. The other doctor didn't provide any empirical evidence. So I wouldn't say it was a matter of who provided the best evidence at all. It is a matter of one providing none and the other providing some.

I would personally accept the conclusion of the doctor who provided empirical tests, but not solely because he had empirical evidence. Another reason why I would accept his conclusion is that it is an agreeable conclusion. It is easy to accept a verdict of being cancer free because that is what everyone wants to hear. So there are existential and psychological factors involved in my accepting his conclusions too.

Some people can be provided empirical test after test that they do have cancer and they will not accept it and insist on getting 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th opinions until they keel over from cancer.

So while I think your illustration can serve a purpose, it also raises other significant questions.

Some have concluded that they will not accept any evidence for Christianity, empirical or otherwise because they just don't like Christianity.

Some don't need any evidence at all because they like Christianity.

There are accounts of people admitting that their appeals to a lack of empirical evidence or their misgivings about the notion of faith were smokescreens for not being a Christian. In other words, those reasons they gave to people for not being a Christian were not the real reasons. All of the accounts share a similar component. Some perceived injustice had led them to think that Christianity was a bunch of hogwash and they found no trouble in coming up with reasons that sounded intellectual for their unbelief. Sometimes this injustice was something they saw, sometimes it was something they experienced personally.

While I do not ascribe such motivations to every unbeliever, it does give one pause to think.

A whole bunch of people who christians, claim to have evidence for their faith, and cant seem to grasp why others dont agree with them, so i believe you have this backwards.

So lets look at the example i gave. One doctor bases a conclusion someone has cancer, just based on their personal observations and no independent means to demonstrate they are correct with empirical evidence. This is what many christians do, they claim they have powerful personal experiences and they just dont understand how others dont share their experiences and or, they claim the other person is blind to spirituality and hasnt tried hard enough. So, that doctor who claims a person has cancer is the same. They can claim they have a powerful personal perception someone has cancer and anyone who doesnt agree is just blind.

This is why the majority of the worlds population disagree with your faith beliefs, because they are only based on personal experiences, with no independent evidence, to support the belief.
 
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anonymous person

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I think you running round in circles empirical evidence does not mean 'apart from the mind' of course all evidence is filtered through the mind.

Lets see what it means:

Cambridge Dictionary:
based on what is experienced or seen rather than on theory:
This theory needs to be backed up with solid empirical data/evidence.
Empirical studies show that some forms of alternative medicine are extremely effective.

When a person asks for empirical evidence they are not asking for information that does not pass through the mind. They are saying that in order for their minds to accept something as true, they need more information than they currently have.

So when an atheist or a member of any other religion ask for empirical evidence they are simply asking for more information because so far you have provided too little, or in the case of a god, non at all.

When you talk about people having 'faith' in science, they do so simply because it provides more information that can be verified, rather than faith (in this case in god) that is simply an unsupported statement.

Empirical evidence is a type or category of evidence.

So you're incorrect.

When someone demands empirical evidence for a claim such as "Jesus rose bodily from the grave" they are demanding evidence that is observable, repeatable, and testable. A very specific and a very particular kind of evidence. They aren't just asking for any kind of evidence. If that were the case, then they would accept what Christians traditionally have appealed to as evidence, the accounts of His life death and resurrection found in the New Testament documents.

What such people who make such demands are doing are narrowing the criteria for evidence down so far as to render it impossible for the Christian to meet their terms. Sometimes it is a form of moving goalposts where they initially start out by saying something like,


"Well show me some evidence and I will accept your claims!"

Once the Christian does this, they will respond by saying something like,

"Well, it is not empirically verifiable evidence!"

This is a classic example of moving goalposts. The first request was met, the ball was going through the goalposts, but then the goal is moved back so that the ball cannot go through.

Sometimes the challenger will make demands for evidence that he knows cannot even in principle exist. Once again, we can use the above as an illustration. In principle, empirical evidence cannot exist for the claim that Jesus rose bodily from the grave and yet they ask for it and when it can't be given, they congratulate themselves with a pat on the back.
 
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bhsmte

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Empirical evidence is a type or category of evidence.

So you're incorrect.

When someone demands empirical evidence for a claim such as "Jesus rose bodily from the grave" they are demanding evidence that is observable, repeatable, and testable. A very specific and a very particular kind of evidence. They aren't just asking for any kind of evidence. If that were the case, then they would accept what Christians traditionally have appealed to as evidence, the accounts of His life death and resurrection found in the New Testament documents.

What such people who make such demands are doing are narrowing the criteria for evidence down so far as to render it impossible for the Christian to meet their terms. Sometimes it is a form of moving goalposts where they initially start out by saying something like,


"Well show me some evidence and I will accept your claims!"

Once the Christian does this, they will respond by saying something like,

"Well, it is not empirically verifiable evidence!"

This is a classic example of moving goalposts. The first request was met, the ball was going through the goalposts, but then the goal is moved back so that the ball cannot go through.

Sometimes the challenger will make demands for evidence that he knows cannot even in principle exist. Once again, we can use the above as an illustration. In principle, empirical evidence cannot exist for the claim that Jesus rose bodily from the grave and yet they ask for it and when it can't be given, they congratulate themselves with a pat on the back.

A group of anonymous authors, writing about someone raising from the dead, decades after it occured, is not the quality of evidence, many require to believe such an incredible claim.
 
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HitchSlap

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Empirical evidence is a type or category of evidence.

So you're incorrect.

When someone demands empirical evidence for a claim such as "Jesus rose bodily from the grave" they are demanding evidence that is observable, repeatable, and testable. A very specific and a very particular kind of evidence. They aren't just asking for any kind of evidence. If that were the case, then they would accept what Christians traditionally have appealed to as evidence, the accounts of His life death and resurrection found in the New Testament documents.

What such people who make such demands are doing are narrowing the criteria for evidence down so far as to render it impossible for the Christian to meet their terms. Sometimes it is a form of moving goalposts where they initially start out by saying something like,


"Well show me some evidence and I will accept your claims!"

Once the Christian does this, they will respond by saying something like,

"Well, it is not empirically verifiable evidence!"

This is a classic example of moving goalposts. The first request was met, the ball was going through the goalposts, but then the goal is moved back so that the ball cannot go through.

Sometimes the challenger will make demands for evidence that he knows cannot even in principle exist. Once again, we can use the above as an illustration. In principle, empirical evidence cannot exist for the claim that Jesus rose bodily from the grave and yet they ask for it and when it can't be given, they congratulate themselves with a pat on the back.
Your argument boils down to; believe what I say because I do.

Most disingenuous.
 
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anonymous person

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A whole bunch of people who christians, claim to have evidence for their faith, and cant seem to grasp why others dont agree with them, so i believe you have this backwards.

So lets look at the example i gave. One doctor bases a conclusion someone has cancer, just based on their personal observations and no independent means to demonstrate they are correct with empirical evidence. This is what many christians do, they claim they have powerful personal experiences and they just dont understand how others dont share their experiences and or, they claim the other person is blind to spirituality and hasnt tried hard enough. So, that doctor who claims a person has cancer is the same. They can claim they have a powerful personal perception someone has cancer and anyone who doesnt agree is just blind.

This is why the majority of the worlds population disagree with your faith beliefs, because they are only based on personal experiences, with no independent evidence, to support the belief.

Well I have good news for you!

All you have to do is go to www.reasonablefaith.org and there you will find 7 different lines of independent evidence for Christianity. None of these 7 pieces of evidence consist of an appeal to personal religious experiences! The article in which you will find these was actually published in Philosophy Now (Nov./Dec. 2013)

Does God Exist? | Reasonable Faith
 
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HitchSlap

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Which argument are you referring to? In the post you quoted, I made several arguments.
Yep, they were all of the "this is true because I say so" variety. Not compelling on any level.

How about you pick one of your favorite of the "seven" proofs you linked to, and we can discuss.

(Back in a while)
 
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bhsmte

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Well I have good news for you!

All you have to do is go to www.reasonablefaith.org and there you will find 7 different lines of independent evidence for Christianity. None of these 7 pieces of evidence consist of an appeal to personal religious experiences! The article in which you will find these was actually published in Philosophy Now (Nov./Dec. 2013)

Does God Exist? | Reasonable Faith

LOL.

I have heard willie craig's arguments and have seen him in debates. I am not surprised you latch onto willie, he preaches, to the choir.
 
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possibletarian

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Empirical evidence is a type or category of evidence.

So you're incorrect.

How am I incorrect ?

When someone demands empirical evidence for a claim such as "Jesus rose bodily from the grave" they are demanding evidence that is observable, repeatable, and testable. A very specific and a very particular kind of evidence.

Yes empirical evidence, the most common kind of evidence that people ask for when a bizarre fantastic claim is made. Many claims are made by Christians and as yet they have provided no evidence for those claims, and neither have you.

They aren't just asking for any kind of evidence. If that were the case, then they would accept what Christians traditionally have appealed to as evidence,

Calling it evidence does not make it so, at least acceptable evidence. many religions make fantastic claims about their deity's, and say their personal experiences are evidence, many even claim miracles, should we simply believe them all ?

the accounts of His life death and resurrection found in the New Testament documents.

That's just the point, outside the bible there is little evidence, there are writings about the Christian faith, but whether the Christian faith exists or not is not the debate.

What such people who make such demands are doing are narrowing the criteria for evidence down so far as to render it impossible for the Christian to meet

That could mean perhaps it's simply not true, I can't offhand think of anything other than your supernatural claims that their isn't evidence for.

"Well show me some evidence and I will accept your claims!"

Once the Christian does this, they will respond by saying something like,

"Well, it is not empirically verifiable evidence!"

If it's not verifiable maybe it's simply not true

This is a classic example of moving goalposts. The first request was met, the ball was going through the goalposts, but then the goal is moved back so that the ball cannot go through.

But you just said they always ask the same, make your mind up.

Sometimes the challenger will make demands for evidence that he knows cannot even in principle exist. Once again, we can use the above as an illustration. In principle, empirical evidence cannot exist for the claim that Jesus rose bodily from the grave and yet they ask for it and when it can't be given, they congratulate themselves with a pat on the back.

Well yes it's an utterly fantastic claim, so wouldn't you ask for evidence that was verifiable, or do you take all religions at face value, they make the same utterly fantastic claims as yours. I put the biblical stories on par with all the other fantastic claims people make, it's so clearly made up.

The bottom line is if 'God so loves the world...' wouldn't it be fantastically easy for such an all empowered god to put his existence beyond doubt for everyone ?
 
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possibletarian

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Yep, they were all of the "this is true because I say so" variety. Not compelling on any level.

How about you pick one of your favorite of the "seven" proofs you linked to, and we can discuss.

(Back in a while)

I think that is an excellent idea !
 
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anonymous person

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LOL.

I have heard willie craig's arguments and have seen him in debates. I am not surprised you latch onto willie, he preaches, to the choir.

Ok, well what do you think about those 7 different lines of evidence he gives?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Well I have good news for you!

All you have to do is go to www.reasonablefaith.org and there you will find 7 different lines of independent evidence for Christianity. None of these 7 pieces of evidence consist of an appeal to personal religious experiences! The article in which you will find these was actually published in Philosophy Now (Nov./Dec. 2013)

Does God Exist? | Reasonable Faith

...thanks, AP. I'm an occasional reader of Philosophy Now, so I'll take a look at that article, even if no one else will. ;)

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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