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anonymous person

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As I recall, no reason was ever given for why anything called "mind" exists independently of the brain.

Well if you will recall, I gave evidence of the existence of an unembodied mind when I argued that the universe has a cause. Every rebuttal to this evidence amounted to either question begging on behalf of naturalism, or casting doubt on the notion that things don't just pop into being without a cause whatsoever, or arguing that some hypothetical multiverse exists from which our own universe sprang into being. Such rebuttals fail in their attempt to cast doubt on the evidence I have presented.

This is just one line of evidence remember. There are other lines as well.

I know there are many things we don't understand, but I see no reason to believe supernatural phenomena are valid. They've always been invoked in the past, but have always yielded to natural explanations. The entire history of knowledge is one of a steadily diminishing role for the supernatural. I'm sure we'll never know everything. Understanding the universe is a journey, not a destination. There will always be supernatural speculation to fill the gaps. But I know it will continue to shrink as our knowledge grows.

We have different world views. You think a supernatural explanation fits what we do know. I'm no expert in cosmology, but from what I've read, there are natural explanations that are far better. You have a supernatural bias. I have a naturalistic bias. But we can still be friends. :wave:

What you are espousing is scientism, which is a theory of epistemology which states that the only source of knowledge is the scientific method and empiricism. It is the view that we should only believe those things which are provable by science.

Jayem, in addition to my argument against naturalism, I will now show you why you should not adhere to scientism.

First, scientism is too restrictive a theory of knowledge.

Secondly, it is self-refuting. Scientism tells us that we should not believe any proposition that cannot be scientifically proven. But what about that very proposition itself? It cannot itself be scientifically proven. Therefore we should not believe it. Scientism thus defeats itself.

So Jayem, you should adopt a new epistemological framework. One that is less restrictive and one that is not self-refuting.

Additionally, the argument you keep raising about the effectiveness of science to explain natural phenomena is trivial. At best it is an argument for methodological naturalism, that is to say, the view that in doing natural science we should assume that all physical events have only natural causes. The methodological naturalist needn’t be a metaphysical naturalist, that is to say, he needn’t deny that miracles occur or that supernatural entities exist. He contends merely that they are not the concern of science. Science just is the search for natural causes or explanations of phenomena. This methodological thesis is one which a great many, if not most, Christian scientists agree with.

So your argument is not an argument for metaphysical naturalism at all! It is an argument for methodological naturalism. I can wholeheartedly agree that science is not concerned with supernatural causes, but rather natural ones, for that is inherent in the notion of science being concerned with the repeatable and observable.

And of course, no supernaturalistic explanation has ever superseded a naturalistic one! That’s guaranteed by science’s assumption of methodological naturalism. It prohibits supernatural explanations from even being included in the pool of live explanatory options. Thus it’s impossible for a supernaturalistic explanation to supersede a naturalistic one! Only for theorists who are willing to challenge the assumption of methodological naturalism, like creation scientists or advocates of Intelligent Design, is there the possibility that a naturalistic explanation might give way to a supernaturalistic explanation.


Read more: Is Scientism Self-Refuting | Reasonable Faith

When it comes to questions of the origin of the universe itself, the answer cannot be a scientific one. For once we cross into this territory, we are no longer within the reach of science. This is where metaphysics and things like philosophy and religion come into play. To reject any of these out of hand because you assume that the universe is all there is is simply to beg the question for naturalism, something you cannot do if you want to discover truth.
 
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pitabread

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Only for theorists who are willing to challenge the assumption of methodological naturalism, like creation scientists or advocates of Intelligent Design, is there the possibility that a naturalistic explanation might give way to a supernaturalistic explanation.

The problem though is that creationists and/or ID advocates don't actually provide any explanations. The bulk of their effort is to cast doubt on scientific knowledge they find unpalatable and then insert a particular theist viewpoint as a default. Unfortunately, said theistic viewpoints don't hold any real explanatory power and therefore have little practical use.
 
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HitchSlap

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Why do you think that mind cannot exist apart from a brain, or that as you state it, nothing more than a process which is dependent upon a brain?
Because no one has ever shown it to be anything different.
 
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anonymous person

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The problem though is that creationists and/or ID advocates don't actually provide any explanations.

Why do you say that?

The bulk of their effort is to cast doubt on scientific knowledge they find unpalatable and then insert a particular theist viewpoint as a default. Unfortunately, said theistic viewpoints don't hold any real explanatory power and therefore have little practical use.

Oh really? Please explain what reasons and arguments and evidence you have to support these claims.
 
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anonymous person

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Because no one has ever shown it to be anything different.

Well, I have. Right here in this thread. I have shown that an immaterial, timeless (sans the universe) and spaceless efficient cause of the universe exists, i.e. an unembodied mind.

Now if you object to one of the premises of my argument, then which one do you object to and why?
 
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pitabread

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Why do you say that?

Explanations need to have explanatory power. IOW, they need to provide details of how something in nature works.

For example, take evolution. It not only details with the 'what' (diversity of life on Earth) but it provides a 'how' via various mechanisms both at the population and molecular levels, and in some cases the 'where' and the 'when'. Such mechanisms can be hypothesized, observed, tested, etc.

Conversely, what is the 'how' in the creationist/ID explanation? I've seen a lot arguments trying to lay claim to a supernatural designer of life on Earth, but nary an explanation of how this supposedly took place. What were the mechanisms involved? How does one distinguish between supernatural design in life and results of evolutionary processes? When did this divine intervention take place? Is creation ongoing? Are creatures being supernaturally created today? Etc.

Oh really? Please explain what reasons and arguments and evidence you have to support these claims.

It's a result of engaging in C/E discussions and debates for over a decade, and in particular what I've seen come out of the creationist and ID camps.

If you take a major creationist organization like Answers in Genesis, for example, a lot of what they traditionally have published is reactionary. Perhaps this has changed in recent years, but the bulk of their material I've poured over typically falls under the same pattern: talk about what mainstream science says, claim that it's wrong or otherwise cast doubt where possible, then claim their 'creation model' is correct because they say so.

Unfortunately in all the creationist and ID literature, all the supposed work they've put into trying to discredit mainstream science, I've yet to see a single example of applied creationism/ID come out of any of this.

Evolutionary biological is an applied science. Even the relationships of species via heritable descent (i.e. phylogenetics) is an applied science.

Where is the applied science from creationism or ID?
 
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HitchSlap

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Well, I have. Right here in this thread. I have shown that an immaterial, timeless (sans the universe) and spaceless efficient cause of the universe exists, i.e. an unembodied mind.

Now if you object to one of the premises of my argument, then which one do you object to and why?
You haven't "shown" anything...

One could just as easily claim the purple teletubbie farted the universe into existence last Wednesday.
 
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anonymous person

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Explanations need to have explanatory power. IOW, they need to provide details of how something in nature works.

Why do you believe that an explanation has to provide detail of how something in nature works? Why limit the live pool of explanations to only those which appeal to natural phenomena?

For example, take evolution. It not only details with the 'what' (diversity of life on Earth) but it provides a 'how' via various mechanisms both at the population and molecular levels, and in some cases the 'where' and the 'when'. Such mechanisms can be hypothesized, observed, tested, etc.

That is correct. The theory of evolution by natural selection is, I think, the best naturalistic explanation for the diversity we observe in our world. However, this theory cannot account for the origination of life itself, which the whole evolutionary process is dependent upon, and which any worldview must attempt to answer. Nor is the diversity we observe in this world the only thing that needs to be accounted for. A worldview deals with much more fundamental issues at its core, i.e. where did we come from?, why are we here?, where are we going?, what is the meaning of life?

None of these questions can even be answered by appealing to the theory of evolution by natural selection. Science has no claim on such questions and these questions are once again, the most fundamental ones we ask. So if you want to speak of explanatory scope, understand that a hypothesis must account for much more than just diversity we observe.

Conversely, what is the 'how' in the creationist/ID explanation? I've seen a lot arguments trying to lay claim to a supernatural designer of life on Earth, but nary an explanation of how this supposedly took place. What were the mechanisms involved? How does one distinguish between supernatural design in life and results of evolutionary processes? When did this divine intervention take place? Is creation ongoing? Are creatures being supernaturally created today? Etc.

The fatal flaw in this reasoning was highlighted by Dr. William Lane Craig in response to something similar said by Richard Dawkins. You don't have to have an explanation of an explanation in order to recognize it as the best explanation of a given set of data. If that were the case, then we would never have an explanation for anything! You would have an infinite regress of explanations so that science itself would be destroyed and we would never be explain anything!

Surely you have seen the movie Contact? Scientists received data from deep space in the form of repeating prime numbers and literally lost their minds. They knew it was evidence of extraterrestrial life.

Did they know who these beings were?

No.

Did they know the mechanisms involved in their receiving the initial broadcast of the Olympics in Berlin years earlier?

No.

Did they know if these beings were still alive?

No.

Did they know if they were intervening in the affairs of humans presently?

No.

They knew very little, in fact, next to nothing about these extraterrestrials. And yet every scientist was certain that the best explanation for the broadcast in prime numbers was that an intelligence was behind it. That it was by intelligent design!

In addition, the issue of how we get to know God who is Creator and Sustainer of all that is is a matter of systematic theology. The Bible answers many of your questions quite clearly. Check it out.



If you take a major creationist organization like Answers in Genesis, for example, a lot of what they traditionally have published is reactionary.
Anything that is published, by either side, could arguably be called reactionary.

Perhaps this has changed in recent years, but the bulk of their material I've poured over typically falls under the same pattern: talk about what mainstream science says, claim that it's wrong or otherwise cast doubt where possible, then claim their 'creation model' is correct because they say so.

This is very uncharitable. I challenge you to furnish one person who is a professional proponent of I.D. that has argued that people should believe in I.D. because they say so.
 
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pitabread

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Why do you believe that an explanation has to provide detail of how something in nature works? Why limit the live pool of explanations to only those which appeal to natural phenomena?

Because nature is what we're typically trying to explain; in this particular case, diversity of life on Earth.

That is correct. The theory of evolution by natural selection is, I think, the best naturalistic explanation for the diversity we observe in our world. However, this theory cannot account for the origination of life itself, which the whole evolutionary process is dependent upon, and which any worldview must attempt to answer.

Not knowing the origin of life, however, neither invalidates the ToE nor points to supernatural origins. At best, it's a gap in human knowledge. A gap which is being worked on as we speak.

And why must any worldview attempt to answer the origin of life? What is wrong with just not having an answer?

Nor is the diversity we observe in this world the only thing that needs to be accounted for. A worldview deals with much more fundamental issues at its core, i.e. where did we come from?, why are we here?, where are we going?, what is the meaning of life?

None of these questions can even be answered by appealing to the theory of evolution by natural selection. Science has no claim on such questions and these questions are once again, the most fundamental ones we ask. So if you want to speak of explanatory scope, understand that a hypothesis must account for much more than just diversity we observe.

Sure, science can't answer philosophical questions about the nature and purpose of our existence. So? There is nothing to say that science must be able to answer such questions. So I'm not sure why you say that "a hypothesis must account for much more than just diversity we observe".

Science is mainly about the how, not the why.

They knew very little, in fact, next to nothing about these extraterrestrials. And yet every scientist was certain that the best explanation for the broadcast in prime numbers was that an intelligence was behind it. That it was by intelligent design!

First of all, I can appreciate the irony in using a fictional scenario in a fictional movie to argue for intelligent design. ;)

But even in the case of something like SETI, there is a framework around it based on human knowledge; i.e. what would we expect an alien signal to look like if we were trying to contact another civilization. And in fact this is one of the big challenges with SETI, because if such a signal is not intended to be specifically intercepted and understood (i.e. if it's compressed, encoded, etc), then such a signal may never even be detectable by us.

In fact, this has always fascinated about the ID movement and genetics, because we humans are intelligent designers! We've been genetically engineering things for decades now. Why don't the ID crowd turn their attention to detecting human intelligent design? Why can't they come up with methods to distinguish between GM organisms and non-GM organisms? Instead, they tend to focus on evolutionary events that occurred millions or billions of years ago and argue in favor of design, while largely ignoring the very real fact that intelligent design is applied to life in the here and now.

In addition, the issue of how we get to know God who is Creator and Sustainer of all that is is a matter of systematic theology. The Bible answers many of your questions quite clearly. Check it out.

You've just made about six leaps beyond the starting point. You can't immediately jump from "we're trying to detect design in nature" to "this particular theological viewpoint that coincidentally happens to be the predominant religious belief in Western society is the correct interpretation of said designer". That's way too much of a leap. It also confirms that theists tend to be working backwards from theological belief to design rather than the other way around.

Even if we do get to the point where we can, say, detect design in biological organisms, we don't even know if the origin is even supernatural at that point. You've got a heckuva lot more legwork to do before you even get into theology.

Anything that is published, by either side, could arguably be called reactionary.

Huh? If you pick a random published paper in a typical scientific journal, you'll unlikely to find any mentions of creationism or ID. Generally scientists don't feel the need to go out of their way to explicitly 'disprove' creationism or ID.

The same cannot be said for typical material put about by creationist or ID organizations.

This is very uncharitable. I challenge you to furnish one person who is a professional proponent of I.D. that has argued that people should believe in I.D. because they say so.

I'm talking about organizations. Answers in Genesis in particular is one such organization that has a specific faith statement based on what they specifically believe and most of what they put out is in argument in favor of that faith statement.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
Yes, the Christian God exists,

de: Citation needed
My previous post.


ed: the BB theory has pretty much proven that the universe is an effect and needs a cause.

de: No, actually... it hasn't. If the Big Bang theory is correct, cause and effect doesn't even apply.

In what way? Cosmologists and physicists like Keith Ward, Arno Penzias, Freeman Dyson, Paul Davies, Donald Goldsmith, and a young Stephen Hawking, all disagree with you.


ed: And the characteristics of the universe such as that purposes exist in it and persons exist in it point to the cause being personal. And I have already provided evidence that the mind is primarily non-physical in a few earlier posts.

de: As your premises are flawed, none of this has any relevance to reality.
Not according to the well respected scientists above.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Oh really? What evidence might this be?

We know the natural world exists, we have no conclusive evidence to demonstrate anything other than the natural world exists. As such, naturalism is the only position I can rationally justify unless further evidence is brought forward.

But you believe there is evidence for naturalism. So you necessarily believe that the universe has always existed in one form or another, multiverse or not, for you yourself have said that both sides believe something has always existed. You obviously don't believe God has always existed, so you believe the cosmos has always existed the same way I believe God has always existed. The cosmos is your explanatory ultimate. Simply stating what you believe to be true is not arguing dishonestly.

Secondly, even if I were arguing dishonestly, that does nothing to show that the premises of my arguments are not true, or that they are not more plausible than their negations.

Time as we know it started with the universe, so in that regard the universe has always existed. However I'm not arguing that time and the universe as we know it had a beginning, which evidence shows was the big bang.

How the universe came to be is an unanswered question at the moment though. Perhaps one day we'll figure it out. We don't know enough about the cosmos however to make any declarations about what it is or isn't, if there's some kind of separate time there, or if it exists at all (apart from our local universe).

Basically, I'm saying we have a good idea of how things unfolded past the planck time. What happened before then we can't say with any measure of certainty.

Obviously you do not know, nor will you ever know, if you equate knowledge with that which can be proven scientifically. Once again, in all of this, you are assuming that in order to know something, you must arrive at this knowledge via empirical means, but if the universe comes into being, then you cannot know the answer to how it does via empiricism. Science has limits. It is limited to the observable and repeatable. It is limited to the empirical, therefore it follows that if you are waiting for a scientific explanation of how the universe came into being before you can say you know how it came to be, then you will never have an answer, for such an answer cannot exist.

Clearly you have greater knowledge than anyone else on the planet on this topic. To dictate what science may or may not discover, and what it's absolute limitations are requires an awful lot of information. How did you get this information may I ask?

Because all throughout history there have been people saying this discovery or that discovery is beyond the abilities of science to ever answer. We were told discovering and analyzing the internal material of stars was forever beyond the reach of science. We were told heavier than air flight was scientifically impossible, same with space flight. In 1934 Albert Einstein himself said it was beyond the abilities of science to ever harness nuclear energy, and was proven wrong by Enrico Fermi in the very same year.

People who say science can never discover the answer are very often proven wrong. That doesn't mean we will ever discover the complete origins story, however you also have no way to know what we might discover for the rest of human civilization.

At the very least, I think you can feel safe with acknowledging this basic limitation of science. Such a limitation is inherent in science by virtue of what science itself is.

In addition, I know how the universe came about, it came about as the result of a supernatural being creating it. Claiming such is not dishonest on my part, I am simply stating a fact, for I do not limit myself to only one type of knowledge. I am not an empiricist or an adherent of scientism.

No, you don't know that.

I accept that you believe it, however you can't prove it. Beliefs do not equate to knowledge, even if you really, really believe it.
 
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Dave Ellis

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My previous post.

Which one? The one you wrote to me? There's no evidence in that, just bald assertion. Or were you referring to another post?

In what way? Cosmologists and physicists like Keith Ward, Arno Penzias, Freeman Dyson, Paul Davies, Donald Goldsmith, and a young Stephen Hawking, all disagree with you.

Please explain how you have cause and effect without the existence of time?

Not according to the well respected scientists above.

Listing names doesn't prove your point. Please answer my question above.
 
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quatona

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Why do you think that mind cannot exist apart from a brain, or that as you state it, nothing more than a process which is dependent upon a brain?
I am open to the possibility that walking exists without legs, or even that walking produces legs. (Not sure what that might even mean (and what redefinitions of "walking" or "existence" it will take to arrive at that conclusion, though. Come to think of iit, it makes quite some sense from my perspective of radical constructivism.).
Same with mind and brain.

The funny thing, however, is: In a process- rather than object-oriented thinking, there´s absolutely no need for a distinction natural vs. supernatural, and even less is there a need for such a thing as a "first cause" (a postulation that actually falls back into adopting "proper basic beliefs" of object-based thinking).

No matter how we slice it, it´s too obvious that you are reverse-manufacturing your "arguments" from your desired result (that a God and specifically blble-God is a necessary assumption). This tends to cause a lot of errors.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Most of the godless people I meet today (including agnostics and atheists in that) consider science and choice as the pillars of reality. Science defines how we look at the world and assess the validity of truth claims and choice is the basis for morality and law. I accept that there are other kinds of godless people out there. In the past we had Marxists who had an historical ideological understanding of the evolution of society based on economics. Also Nietzsche had an atheistic world view based on the will to power. Freud argued that our psychology and particularly views on sex determined our understandings of reality. But these previous forms of atheism have mainly been refuted, discredited and overthrown and today the majority of godless people phrase their godlessness in terms of the principles of scientific authority and choice.

I've never seen "choice" as a pillar of morality...or however you see it. I can't claim to know anyone who does...but I'll take your word for it that you do.

The view of science held is that of an old universe, spontaneous emergence of life and macro evolution. It is a bleak and brutal vision of nature in which mass extinctions and biological processes have led to oblivion for many species while allowing others to thrive and survive. Reality is painful and choices determined by biological circumstance.

I don't think I'd say "bleak and brutal"...I'd probably say "indifferent"...but whatever...

The view of choice held implies that each person has the freedom to choose their own way and that the basis of morality is to respect these choices. Reasonably they may argue that murder violates another persons freedom, intolerance violates his freedom etc. They may also argue that if I am gay I should be allowed to marry another gay person, if I want to die then I should be able to have euthanasia, if I do not want this baby then I should be able to kill it before it is born.

I have 3 main issues with this godless understanding of choice.

1) It seems to contradict the scientific appraisal of reality as being somehow determined by environment, evolution and circumstance.

Choices are similarly determined (limited) by circumstances...so I'm not quite sure what your misunderstanding is.

2) It is rather selective in what it chooses e.g. the mother choice of her own personal convenience over that of the life of her child.

Again, I think it's going to be a circumstantial point. Even amongst those who argue a woman should be allowed to have an abortion at any time for any reason...I don't personally know any who would say that having an abortion for the "fun" of it, for example, is a morally good choice.

3) It has no ultimate authoritative foundation that does not change.

How is that a problem with understanding morality? It seems to me if you understand that part, you understand morality pretty well.

In essence can the idea of choice be justified if this high view of science is maintained. Why are the choices accepted by godless people so selective in terms of what is acceptable and what not.

Any individual's view of morality could be called selective...but as a group, the choices which are viewed as "acceptable" and "unacceptable" are very wide and varied...not that selective at all.

With what authority that survives any kind of serious scrutiny can these choices be justified

One only needs to justify their moral choices to themselves...and anyone who's opinion they care about. I would guess that most (if not all) people keep some moral choices they've made hidden, or unknown, to most people for fear of how those people would view them...or just from the fact that they don't care to share that information. I mean, how many people do you know go around telling people about the candy bar they stole from a gas station when they were 11...and then try to justify that action to everyone?
 
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anonymous person

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We know the natural world exists, we have no conclusive evidence to demonstrate anything other than the natural world exists. As such, naturalism is the only position I can rationally justify unless further evidence is brought forward.



Time as we know it started with the universe, so in that regard the universe has always existed. However I'm not arguing that time and the universe as we know it had a beginning, which evidence shows was the big bang.

How the universe came to be is an unanswered question at the moment though. Perhaps one day we'll figure it out. We don't know enough about the cosmos however to make any declarations about what it is or isn't, if there's some kind of separate time there, or if it exists at all (apart from our local universe).

Basically, I'm saying we have a good idea of how things unfolded past the planck time. What happened before then we can't say with any measure of certainty.



Clearly you have greater knowledge than anyone else on the planet on this topic. To dictate what science may or may not discover, and what it's absolute limitations are requires an awful lot of information. How did you get this information may I ask?

Because all throughout history there have been people saying this discovery or that discovery is beyond the abilities of science to ever answer. We were told discovering and analyzing the internal material of stars was forever beyond the reach of science. We were told heavier than air flight was scientifically impossible, same with space flight. In 1934 Albert Einstein himself said it was beyond the abilities of science to ever harness nuclear energy, and was proven wrong by Enrico Fermi in the very same year.

People who say science can never discover the answer are very often proven wrong. That doesn't mean we will ever discover the complete origins story, however you also have no way to know what we might discover for the rest of human civilization.



No, you don't know that.

I accept that you believe it, however you can't prove it. Beliefs do not equate to knowledge, even if you really, really believe it.

You're assuming there is ultimately a natural explanation for the universe as we know it coming to be even if we never discover what it is. This assumption implies that you assume there is some multiverse or some other natural realm from which our universe sprang and that this other natural realm has always existed and exists necessarily.

IOW, you believe in something for which there is no evidence whatsoever. As you stated earlier, naturalism is your default position and whenever you are presented with evidence that naturalism is false, you beg the question on behalf of naturalism, that such evidence for whatever reason, is unacceptable.

That's fine. I'm just telling you that I personally came to a point in my life where I could no longer honestly hold these views. I realized that I had blind faith in naturalism and was holding a view which had nothing going for it and too much evidence against it.

I came to a point where I didn't need anyone to give me evidence for this or that. I began examining why I believed what I did and did this after much thought and meditation and realized that my own motives were an indictment against me. I resolved to take a fresh look at the evidence without any preconceived notions and follow the evidence where it led me. I only hope you do the same. :)
 
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bhsmte

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Well, I have. Right here in this thread. I have shown that an immaterial, timeless (sans the universe) and spaceless efficient cause of the universe exists, i.e. an unembodied mind.

Now if you object to one of the premises of my argument, then which one do you object to and why?
You have provided personal opinions, without any objective evidence to support.
 
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anonymous person

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I am open to the possibility that walking exists without legs, or even that walking produces legs. (Not sure what that might even mean (and what redefinitions of "walking" or "existence" it will take to arrive at that conclusion, though. Come to think of iit, it makes quite some sense from my perspective of radical constructivism.).
Same with mind and brain.

The funny thing, however, is: In a process- rather than object-oriented thinking, there´s absolutely no need for a distinction natural vs. supernatural, and even less is there a need for such a thing as a "first cause" (a postulation that actually falls back into adopting "proper basic beliefs" of object-based thinking).

No matter how we slice it, it´s too obvious that you are reverse-manufacturing your "arguments" from your desired result (that a God and specifically blble-God is a necessary assumption). This tends to cause a lot of errors.

You can't use the word "we" my friend. At most, as a radical constructivist, you can say "I". Nor can you speak about "error", for the notion implies that there is a "right" way to reason and think which exists independently of us and which humans can, for whatever reason fail to do. But if reality and knowledge and truth are mere constructs created by the individual, then well, it may be true to you that my reasoning is fallacious while at the same time it is true to me that it is not. So your radical constructivism not only depends upon the correspondence theory of truth which stands in stark opposition to it, but it also lands you affirming that the laws of logic no longer obtain.

As I stated earlier, views such as these that float around in the atheist community serve to only reaffirm my conviction that atheism is simply intellectually bankrupt. I had to get real with myself and make a decision to either live with my head in the sand or to pull it out and be willing to embrace reality, a reality that I could not bend and form and fashion to my own will and desires, but one that stood over and against my desires, in direct opposition to them.
 
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anonymous person

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Because nature is what we're typically trying to explain; in this particular case, diversity of life on Earth.

This simply assumes that the diversity of life on earth can be satisfactorily explained by appealing to natural phenomena. Apart from presuming at the outset of your investigation that natural phenomena can be satisfactorily explained by appealing to natural causes which just is metaphysical naturalism, why think that for example, the diversity we observe can be totally accounted for by appealing to natural causes?

It seems to me that when we get to issues like the very origin of life, or the existence of DNA, then we have come to the point where we admit there simply is no naturalistic explanation that would have more explanatory power and scope as well as fit to the data and accord with accepted beliefs as the intelligent design hypothesis.

Think about it for just a moment. The origin and existence of complex biological information systems like DNA, whose chemical structure within every human cell contains the coded instructions for creating the proteins out of which our bodies are built. Each one of the thirty thousand genes embedded in our twenty-three pairs of chromosomes can yield as many as 20,500 different kinds of proteins! Is it likely that this extraordinary biological ‘software’ arose by chance? To quote science writer, George Sim Johnson’s article, ‘Did Darwin Get It Right?’ (Wall Street Journal, 15/10/99):

“Human DNA contains more organized information than the Encyclopaedia Britannica. If the full text of the encyclopaedia were to arrive in computer code from outer space, most people would regard this as proof of the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence. But when seen in nature, it is explained as the workings of random forces.”

And if this astounding fact were not sufficient in itself to indicate the presence of intelligent design in Nature, Australian geneticist, Michael Denton, points out that the biological information needed to build the proteins for all the species of organisms that have ever lived - a number estimated to be approximately one thousand million –

“could be held in a teaspoon and there would still be room left for all the information in every book ever written.”

Illustra Media’s documentary video, Unlocking the Mystery of Life, shows how DNA serves as the information storehouse for a finely choreographed manufacturing process by which the right amino acids are linked together with the right bonds in the right sequence to produce the right kind of proteins that fold in the right way to build biological systems. Detailed study of this “absolutely mind-boggling” procedure helped to convince Dean Kenyon, America’s leading chemical evolutionist, that unguided naturalistic processes could not explain the origin of life, as he had once believed. On the contrary, he argues:

“This new realm of molecular genetics [is] where we see the most compelling evidence of design on the Earth.”



Read more: Coyne on Faith and Religion

Personally, I think it's time someone stood up and told the emperor he was wearing no clothes.

The incredible lengths that men like Dawkins go to to explain all of this in naturalistic terms is really an embarrassment to the scientific community. Is it any wonder why many in the community, even many atheists, have begun to distance themselves from him and others like him?






Not knowing the origin of life, however, neither invalidates the ToE nor points to supernatural origins.

I never claimed it did.


At best, it's a gap in human knowledge. A gap which is being worked on as we speak.

Once again, your commitment to metaphysical naturalism is evident here. It's as if you're saying, well, science hasn't found out how life originated, but one day it will and it will be explainable in naturalistic terms by appealing to natural phenomena! Just continue to believe and have faith in science!

And why must any worldview attempt to answer the origin of life? What is wrong with just not having an answer?

Why? Because that is what a worldview does. Answering questions such as the origin of life is what meta-narratives, by definition, do.

Your meta-narrative, naturalism, has a genesis account too! It answers the question by saying that life arose by just the right amount and ratio of natural forces acting on just the right amount and ratio of matter in just the right way over just the right amount of time and all of this just so happened to create the irreducibly complex building blocks necessary for life.

I mean really. Let's be reasonable, ok?



Sure, science can't answer philosophical questions about the nature and purpose of our existence. So?

Tell that to men like Hawking and Krauss, men who are seen as pioneers and visionaries in the scientific community, who if they had their way, would consign philosophy to the dust broom closet.

You say so, as if the questions about the nature and purpose of our existence aren't the most important questions we can ask and the ones for which men have been searching for since the beginning of recorded history!

There is nothing to say that science must be able to answer such questions. So I'm not sure why you say that "a hypothesis must account for much more than just diversity we observe".

Science is mainly about the how, not the why.

My point is that science plays a part in our search for truth. It is not the be all end all to knowledge. Science has limitations and to use it in a way in which it becomes something other than what it is, is to abuse it.

My point in saying that a hypothesis must account for much more than the diversity we observe was that one can be a Christian and believe in ToE. The ToE is a part of ones meta-narrative. One can even be a world renowned scientist at that! Have you ever read Francis Collins' works?



First of all, I can appreciate the irony in using a fictional scenario in a fictional movie to argue for intelligent design. ;)

Unfortunately you misunderstood why I appealed to the movie. I appealed to the movie, not to argue for intelligent design, but rather to argue that the scientists in that movie understood that you don't have to have an explanation of an explanation in order to recognize that that explanation is the best explanation for a given set of data.

But even in the case of something like SETI, there is a framework around it based on human knowledge; i.e. what would we expect an alien signal to look like if we were trying to contact another civilization. And in fact this is one of the big challenges with SETI, because if such a signal is not intended to be specifically intercepted and understood (i.e. if it's compressed, encoded, etc), then such a signal may never even be detectable by us.

You're only proving my point. We know that broadcasts containing repeating prime numbers don't just randomly happen. The good old boys over at SETI know that such broadcasts are the result of some intelligent mind, regardless of whether or not they know who this intelligence is, what it is, where it is, how it transmitted the signal, so on and so forth. The fine tuning found in the initial constants and quantities of the big bang, the irreducibly complex coding and language processing systems found in living organisms are far more complex and intricate than a signal broadcast of prime numbers!

You've just made about six leaps beyond the starting point. You can't immediately jump from "we're trying to detect design in nature" to "this particular theological viewpoint that coincidentally happens to be the predominant religious belief in Western society is the correct interpretation of said designer". That's way too much of a leap. It also confirms that theists tend to be working backwards from theological belief to design rather than the other way around.

Naturalists work backwards from their metaphysical beliefs to theorizing the existence of multiverses, or postulating that something can come from nothing, or that the universe could exist before it existed and create itself!!!

Proponents on both sides have an explanatory ultimate and simply defend why that is their explanatory ultimate. Christians for centuries have been defending their beliefs by presenting good arguments, reasons, and evidences for the central truths of Christianity. These apologists didn't just sit back and tell people to take their word for it! Nor did they cast aside logic and reason and venture to claim that things can just pop into being without a cause whatsoever or that things can create themselves. Nor did they set aside the evidence that they had which showed that the universe had a beginning. Nor did they shy away from answering the hardest questions regarding evil and suffering. They dealt with these issues head on and their work and writings speak to us today.

Having examined responses from both sides, there simply is no comparison. On one side, you have mockery, ridicule, rhetoric, fallacious reasoning, the setting aside of the fundamental laws of logic, and the postulation of things for which there is no shred of evidence.

On the other side, you have clear, concise, thoughtful, well evidenced, logical, sound arguments and evidence which appeals to commonly held principles and properly basic beliefs.

I had to make a decision on who to listen to.



Even if we do get to the point where we can, say, detect design in biological organisms, we don't even know if the origin is even supernatural at that point. You've got a heckuva lot more legwork to do before you even get into theology.

For that I would just supplement my arguments with additional arguments and evidence, which I have plenty of.



Huh? If you pick a random published paper in a typical scientific journal, you'll unlikely to find any mentions of creationism or ID. Generally scientists don't feel the need to go out of their way to explicitly 'disprove' creationism or ID.

The same cannot be said for typical material put about by creationist or ID organizations.

No, some just feel the need to ridicule and mock people that aren't methodological naturalists. Those who do this happen to be quite popular and so have a large audience. If the tables were turned, I doubt you would blame those who were subject to such treatment for reacting.

A scientist can lose his job, his reputation, and more just for saying something that doesn't fit neatly within the box naturalists in the academy have constructed. He can be publicly ridiculed and scorned and humiliated just for attempting to disagree with the status quo.

So yes, I would expect people in such positions to react by defending their views and attempting to show those who mock and ridicule where their error lies.
 
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Ana the Ist

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This simply assumes that the diversity of life on earth can be satisfactorily explained by appealing to natural phenomena. Apart from presuming at the outset of your investigation that natural phenomena can be satisfactorily explained by appealing to natural causes which just is metaphysical naturalism, why think that for example, the diversity we observe can be totally accounted for by appealing to natural causes?

Well, it is the only method which has ever satisfactorily explained a natural phenomenon. What other methods would you propose using and why?
 
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quatona

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You can't use the word "we" my friend.
I can use any word I want to. Plus, I am not your friend.
At most, as a radical constructivist, you can say "I".
Nor can you speak about "error", for the notion implies that there is a "right" way to reason and think which exists independently of us and which humans can, for whatever reason fail to do. But if reality and knowledge and truth are mere constructs created by the individual, then well, it may be true to you that my reasoning is fallacious while at the same time it is true to me that it is not. So your radical constructivism not only depends upon the correspondence theory of truth which stands in stark opposition to it, but it also lands you affirming that the laws of logic no longer obtain.
I mentioned radical constructivism just as a side note - I was neither arguing for nor from it.
I wasn´t prepared that this would prompt you to ignore the essential points in my post, although - knowing your strategies for a long time - I should have anticipated that.

Anyway, the points are there to read, and they are unadressed.
Here they are again:

I am open to the possibility that walking exists without legs, or even that walking produces legs. (Not sure what that might even mean (and what redefinitions of "walking" or "existence" it will take to arrive at that conclusion, though.)
Same with mind and brain.

The funny thing, however, is: In a process- rather than object-oriented thinking, there´s absolutely no need for a distinction natural vs. supernatural, and even less is there a need for such a thing as a "first cause" (a postulation that actually falls back into adopting "proper basic beliefs" of object-based thinking).


Your last paragraph that merely consisted of empty rhethorics requires no response.
 
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