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Godless March on Washington

isshinwhat

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Where did he say anything to discredit atheism? There is a difference between an atheist and an anti-theist, and vice-versa. A theist does not have to disparage atheists to practice his faith. A president praying says, in actuality, nothing more than he prays. What others read into it is often what they bring in themselves as preconeptions. Would it be wrong of a President to call for increased aid to farmers, since that would be favoring those who farm over those who do not? Theism and the practice thereof does not have to be anti-atheistic.

Neal
 
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crazyfingers

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
We have citizens here that do not speak English. Should the President not speak English because that excludes a portion of the populus? Where does it stop?


The english language is not specificed in the constitution.  Separation of chruch and state is.  When the President is speaking AS PRESIDENT, he should not be saying that religion is preferred which Bush did on his National Day of Prayer.  YOu know that Madison, who wrote the 1st amendment did say that presidential calls to prayer are a violation of the constitution.

If we are to be a free counrty, then all must have the freedom to exercise the basic rights inherent to humanity. For those who pray, it is the duty of a president to call them to prayer.

Many in the clergy would say that it is their duty and not the presidents' duty.  Are you saying that the president should usurp the duty of the clergy?

Prayer is at the very least a unifying force. For those who do not pray, it is the President to enkindle solidarity between them, as well.

When Bush called on all Americans to pray I found that to be completely alianating. He was disrespecting me.

A President should be all things to all people. He should be a symbol of unity in a diverse country.

Neal

And calling all people to prayer is immensely alianating to some 14% of the population.
 
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isshinwhat

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When Bush called on all Americans to pray I found that to be completely alianating.

Would it have been appropriate had he not said all? How do you recommend he handle matters, including his own faith, publicly, without ostracizing a good portion of the country?

Neal
 
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isshinwhat

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Everyone benefits from farming, and I dare say that not many people would speak poorly of it, regardless of religious affiliation, or the lack thereof.

Agreed. With properly practiced religion, the same should be true, whether you are theist or not. A Christian, since that is what I am most familiar with, should treat everyone equally and give aid to all without prejudice. I realize this is a very optimistic statement that borders on naive, but why should any expression of faith, or lack thereof, be spoken of any differently than something that is more tangibly beneficial to everyone, all the time, like farming?

Neal
 
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sampo

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Quite simply because most Christians do not see anything other than Christianity as being beneficial to anyone. In fact, the opposite is true in a lot of cases. Most christians have a tough time even conversing with non-Christians, muchless thinking that their viewpoints are valid and should be treated as such. Sad but true. I am an agnostic, but I do not try and say that my way is the only way. It would be a pretty boring existence if everyone were like me. A lot of Christians do not uphold that viewpoint in regard to heathens, however.
 
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isshinwhat

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Many in the clergy would say that it is their duty and not the presidents' duty. Are you saying that the president should usurp the duty of the clergy?

The clergy are not the only group who call people to prayer. Anyone can, and for a Christian, it is at various times our duty, though we may be laity. There is no usurpation occurring.

Neal
 
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crazyfingers

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
Would it have been appropriate had he not said all? How do you recommend he handle matters, including his own faith, publicly, without ostracizing a good portion of the country?

Neal

 

He needs to talk as if he has some respect for those who do not share his faith.  And he needs to clearly differentiate between when he is speaking as "The President" and when he's speaking as a person.  When he is making a televised speech, he is clearlty "The President" and needs to show some respect for those who do not share his faith because when he speaks as "the President" and pushes his own faith to the exclusion of others or none, he can not help but imply that other beliefs are less than adequate.
 
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isshinwhat

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Quite simply because most Christians do not see anything other than Christianity as being beneficial to anyone. In fact, the opposite is true in a lot of cases. Most christians have a tough time even conversing with non-Christians, muchless thinking that their viewpoints are valid and should be treated as such. Sad but true. I am an agnostic, but I do not try and say that my way is the only way. It would be a pretty boring existence if everyone were like me. A lot of Christians do not uphold that viewpoint in regard to heathens, however.

Sadly I stand in agreement with your statement. But I am a self-professed naive optimist, so I'm going to do my best to change the situation. I am certain you, as well as every other atheist on this forum, serve an important and beneficial role.

Neal
 
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crazyfingers

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
The clergy are not the only group who call people to prayer. Anyone can, and for a Christian, it is at various times our duty, though we may be laity. There is no usurpation occurring.

Neal

 

I can find some clergy who disagree with that.

For the recent national day of prayer the president had a government paid chaplain write the official prayer and a lot of clergy were extremely upset over this.  It was not what they considered to be of their faith.

And, what business is it of the government to be writing prayers with tax dollars anyway?  The governemnt should not be in the prayer business.
 
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isshinwhat

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And he needs to clearly differentiate between when he is speaking as "The President" and when he's speaking as a person.

Sounds like the Pope speaking ex Cathedra. In one case we believe him to be infallible, in the other we do not. Anyway....

When he is making a televised speech, he is clearlty "The President" and needs to show some respect for those who do not share his faith because when he speaks as "the President" and pushes his own faith to the exclusion of others or none, he can not help but imply that other beliefs are less than adequate.

I still have yet to see him excluding anyone, with the exception of his asking all Americans to pray. For instance the closing of the legal oath states "so help me God." If that were to be taken out, would that necessarily make it an atheistic oath, to the exclusion of theist possibilities? Does it imply there is no God? In my opinion, his praying, in and of itself, is not an endorsement of theism "to the exclusion of others or none."

Neal
 
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crazyfingers

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
Sounds like the Pope speaking ex Cathedra. In one case we believe him to be infallible, in the other we do not. Anyway....



I still have yet to see him excluding anyone, with the exception of his asking all Americans to pray. For instance the closing of the legal oath states "so help me God." If that were to be taken out, would that necessarily make it an atheistic oath, to the exclusion of theist possibilities? Does it imply there is no God? In my opinion, his praying, in and of itself, is not an endorsement of theism "to the exclusion of others or none."

Neal

 

Do you really want me to go find his speech when he proclaimed the national day of prayer after 911?  I can dig it up with a lot of effort if I have to. I found it completely alianating. 
 
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Starscream

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Originally posted by lambslove
You get a lot more respect than you are willing to admit.

Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists are regularly killed for their beliefs. Show me one atheist in recent times who was killed for being an atheist.


Hey crazyfingers, do you think you could find a link to that atheist on death row in Pakistan for lambslove here?

(edited to add:  BTW, he's on death row for the heinous crime of teaching evolution)

You are correct, many people are killed for their beliefs.  Do you honestly suspect that an atheist in the heart of the Middle East would get off any better than a Jew or Christian?


And, why should you get more respect than you already get? What do atheists contribute to society?

This particular atheist would be more than willing to put his contributions against yours.  Perhaps I don't drop some coin in the collection plate each week but I assure you that my wife and I are very generous with our time and money for needy causes.

You have now made two generalizations against atheists:

1)  They only march to seek the spotlight.

2)  They make no worthwhile contributions to society.

Perhaps now you understand a bit better why some of feel the need to speak up against prejudice?
 
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isshinwhat

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Do you really want me to go find his speech when he proclaimed the national day of prayer after 911? I can dig it up with a lot of effort if I have to. I found it completely alianating.

Nahhh. There is no need for you to do my footwork. I haven't seen it, but I'll look for it.

Neal
 
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isshinwhat

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Does it start out:

We are here in the middle hour of our grief. So many have suffered so great a loss, and today we express our nation's sorrow. We come before God to pray for the missing and the dead, and for those who love them.

On Tuesday, our country was attacked with deliberate and massive cruelty. We have seen the images of fire and ashes, and bent steel.

Now come the names, the list of casualties we are only beginning to read. They are the names of men and women who began their day at a desk or in an airport, busy with life. They are the names of people who faced death, and in their last moments called home to say, be brave, and I love you.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010914-2.html
 
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crazyfingers

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Bush calls for a Day of Prayer

On Tuesday morning, September 11, 2001, terrorists attacked America in a series of despicable acts of war.

They hijacked four passenger jets, crashed two of them into the World Trade Center's twin towers and a third into the Headquarters of the U.S. Department of Defense at the Pentagon, causing great loss of life and tremendous damage.

The fourth plane crashed in the Pennsylvania countryside, killing all on board but falling well short of its intended target apparently because of the heroic efforts of passengers on board.

This carnage, which caused the collapse of both Trade Center towers and the destruction of part of the Pentagon, killed more than 250 airplane passengers and thousands more on the ground. Civilized people around the world denounce the evildoers who devised and executed these terrible attacks. Justice demands that those who helped or harbored the terrorists be punished -- and punished severely.

The enormity of their evil demands it. We will use all the resources of the United States and our cooperating friends and allies to pursue those responsible for this evil, until justice is done. We mourn with those who have suffered great and disastrous loss. All our hearts have been seared by the sudden and sense-less taking of innocent lives.

We pray for healing and for the strength to serve and encourage one another in hope and faith. Scripture says: "Blessed are those who mourn for they shall be comforted."

I call on every American family and the family of America to observe a National Day of Prayer and Remembrance, honoring the memory of the thousands of victims of these brutal attacks and comforting those who lost loved ones. We will persevere through this national tragedy and personal loss. In time, we will find healing and recovery; and, in the face of all this evil, we remain strong and united, "one Nation under God."

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim Friday, September 14, 2001, as a National Day of Prayer and Remembrance for the Victims of the Terrorist Attacks on September 11, 2001. I ask that the people of the United States and places of worship mark this National Day of Prayer and Remembrance with noontime memorial services, the ringing of bells at that hour, and evening candlelight remembrance vigils.

I encourage employers to permit their workers time off during the lunch hour to attend the noontime services to pray for our land. I invite the people of the world who share our grief to join us in these solemn observances. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this thirteenth day of September, in the year of our Lord two thousand one, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and twenty-sixth.  

                              GEORGE W. BUSH

 

His speech

1:00 P.M. EDT      THE PRESIDENT:  We are here in the middle hour of our grief.  So many have suffered so great a loss, and today we express our nation's sorrow. We come before God to pray for the missing and the dead, and for those who love them.     

On Tuesday, our country was attacked with deliberate and massive cruelty.  We have seen the images of fire and ashes, and bent steel.     

Now come the names, the list of casualties we are only beginning to read.  They are the names of men and women who began their day at a desk or in an airport, busy with life.  They are the names of people who faced death, and in their last moments called home to say, be brave, and I love you.     

They are the names of passengers who defied their murderers, and prevented the murder of others on the ground.  They are the names of men and women who wore the uniform of the United States, and died at their posts.     

They are the names of rescuers, the ones whom death found running up the stairs and into the fires to help others.  We will read all these names.  We will linger over them, and learn their stories, and many Americans will weep.     

To the children and parents and spouses and families and friends of the lost, we offer the deepest sympathy of the nation.  And I assure you, you are not alone.     

Just three days removed from these events, Americans do not yet have the distance of history.  

But our responsibility to history is already clear: to answer these attacks and rid the world of evil.     

War has been waged against us by stealth and deceit and murder.  

This nation is peaceful, but fierce when stirred to anger.  

This conflict was begun on the timing and terms of others.  

It will end in a way, and at an hour, of our choosing.     

Our purpose as a nation is firm.  Yet our wounds as a people are recent and unhealed, and lead us to pray.  In many of our prayers this week, there is a searching, and an honesty.  At St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York on Tuesday, a woman said, "I prayed to God to give us a sign that He is still here."  Others have prayed for the same, searching hospital to hospital, carrying pictures of those still missing.     

God's signs are not always the ones we look for.  We learn in tragedy that his purposes are not always our own.  Yet the prayers of private suffering, whether in our homes or in this great cathedral, are known and heard, and understood.     

There are prayers that help us last through the day, or endure the night.  

There are prayers of friends and strangers, that give us strength for the journey.  And there are prayers that yield our will to a will greater than our own.
    

This world He created is of moral design.  Grief and tragedy and hatred are only for a time.  Goodness, remembrance, and love have no end. And the Lord of life holds all who die, and all who mourn.     

It is said that adversity introduces us to ourselves.  

This is true of a nation as well.  In this trial, we have been reminded, and the world has seen, that our fellow Americans are generous and kind, resourceful and brave.  We see our national character in rescuers working past exhaustion; in long lines of blood donors; in thousands of citizens who have asked to work and serve in any way possible.     

And we have seen our national character in eloquent acts of sacrifice. Inside the World Trade Center, one man who could have saved himself stayed until the end at the side of his quadriplegic friend.  A beloved priest died giving the last rites to a firefighter.  Two office workers, finding a disabled stranger, carried her down sixty-eight floors to safety.  A group of men drove through the night from Dallas to Washington to bring skin grafts for burn victims.     

In these acts, and in many others, Americans showed a deep commitment to one another, and an abiding love for our country.  Today, we feel what Franklin Roosevelt called the warm courage of national unity.  This is a unity of every faith, and every background.     

It has joined together political parties in both houses of Congress. It is evident in services of prayer and candlelight vigils, and American flags, which are displayed in pride, and wave in defiance.     

Our unity is a kinship of grief, and a steadfast resolve to prevail against our enemies.  And this unity against terror is now extending across the world.     

America is a nation full of good fortune, with so much to be grateful for.  But we are not spared from suffering.  In every generation, the world has produced enemies of human freedom.  They have attacked America, because we are freedom's home and defender.  And the commitment of our fathers is now the calling of our time.     

On this national day of prayer and remembrance, we ask almighty God to watch over our nation, and grant us patience and resolve in all that is to come.  We pray that He will comfort and console those who now walk in sorrow.  We thank Him for each life we now must mourn, and the promise of a life to come.     

As we have been assured, neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, can separate us from God's love.  May He bless the souls of the departed.  May He comfort our own.  And may He always guide our country.     

God bless America.
   

                          END                 1:07 P.M. EDT

 

Dubya did not speak to me at all.  His speech above showed no effort at all to include anyone who does not believe in his god.  It was utterly alianating
 
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LouisBooth

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"Dubya did not speak to me at all. "

Umm..he is a christian..so he called to what he knew to do, ask christians to pray.

" His speech above showed no effort at all to include anyone who does not believe in his god. "

ummm so? He doesn't mention specifically humanists, cultists, nor satanists, nor many other people. so what? you're alienated because you want to be alienated.
 
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