God wins in the end. But do we not need to be concerned about fighting against the enemy?

[Bible Highlighter]

I pointed out that in his letter to the Galatians that was, at times, the case. But not in Romans 7.

In Romans 7:1, Paul says he speaks to those who know the Law. This would be the Law of Moses or the Torah (the 613) and not the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.

 

[aiki]

You are also ignoring my points about Circumcision Salvationism.

Why should I bother with them? You started talking about works salvation, I didn't. I was addressing something else entirely in my first post to this thread which began our back-and-forth.

So I attempted to correct that unbiblical line of thinking.

What unbiblical line of thinking? My initial post to this thread had nothing whatever to do with "Circumcision Salvation."

Just read the verses and it evident.

I'm afraid very little of what you think is "evident" actually is. But, honestly, I couldn't care less about your views on "Circumcision Salvationism." I certainly didn't post to this thread with any intention of discussing it. So, why are you making it an issue?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why should I bother with them? You started talking about works salvation, I didn't. I was addressing something else entirely in my first post to this thread which began our back-and-forth.



What unbiblical line of thinking? My initial post to this thread had nothing whatever to do with "Circumcision Salvation."



I'm afraid very little of what you think is "evident" actually is. But, honestly, I couldn't care less about your views on "Circumcision Salvationism." I certainly didn't post to this thread with any intention of discussing it. So, why are you making it an issue?

We are not saved by Works Salvationism. That charge gets thrown around a lot falsely. Obeying God as a part of being loyal to Him is not Works Salvationism. It also is not in contradiction to one being first saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Sanctification is the 2nd work of God, and Justification is the 1st work of God. Both are works of God in the salvation process. For God has chosen us to salvation through a belief of the truth, and by the Sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13). Paul was not arguing against the Sanctification Process for salvation, but he was arguing against "Circumcision Salvationism" or Law Alone salvationism that attempted to attack the Justification Process (the 1st work of God done in a believer's life). Understanding this basic view on Soteriology helps us to understand why we are to be sober and vilgilant because the devil seeks those in whom he may devour. With a proper view of Soteriology, one can properly understand spiritual warfare and how the devil seeks to destroy all people (Both believers and unbelievers). The devil uses sin to destroy both. Even not believing in Jesus is a sin (See 1 John 3:23, cf. 1 John 3:4). For he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). All who do evil hate the light (John 3:20). Paul says we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). Many today do not have the mind of Christ and they justify sin and evil. This of course is why we must put on the breastplate of righteousness so that we can stand in the evil day and to stand against the schemes of the devil. The schemes of the devil is to get a person to justify some kind of serious sin or false belief that breaks God's commands in the New Covenant (and not the Old Covenant).

 

[aiki]

We are not saved by Works Salvationism.

No, we most definitely are not saved by our works.

That charge gets thrown around alot falsely.

Charge? I don't follow. Who is throwing this charge around at whom?

Obeying God as a part of being loyal to Him is not Works Salvationism.

No, it's not. Did someone say it was? I didn't.

It also is not in contradiction to one being first saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Uh huh.

Sanctification is the 2nd work of God, and Justification is the 1st work of God.

??? Um, Scripture I think makes it pretty clear that we are sanctified by being justified and that these things are imparted to us in Christ when we are saved. In fact, we cannot be saved if we are not perfectly justified and sanctified. God cannot accept anything less than the perfection of Christ - certainly not our bumbling, stumbling human attempts at obedience.

Both are works of God in the salvation process.

Yes. I don't know what you mean by "salvation process," however.

Paul was not arguing against the Sanctification Process for salvation, but he was arguing against "Circumcision Salvationism" or Law Alone salvationism that attempted to attack the Justification Process (the 1st work of God done in a believer's life).

Again, why are you going on about this? My first post to this thread had nothing to do with this stuff; but your posts in response to my first post have more and more migrated into this matter while ignoring most of what I've written since my first post.

I have not written that Paul was arguing against "the sanctification process for salvation." I don't even know what you mean by this. One does not go through a process of sanctification in order to be saved - that's flat-out works salvation - but is perfectly sanctified in Christ as an effect of being saved.

Understanding this basic view on Soteriology helps us to understand why we are to be sober and vilgilant because the devil seeks those in whom he may devour.

See above. For myself, I am "sober and vigilant" because I don't want the devil to diminish the wonderful fellowship with God that I enjoy.

With a proper view of Soteriology, one can properly understand spiritual warfare and how the devil seeks to destroy all people (Both believers and unbelievers).

I suspect your idea of "proper soteriology" and mine differ widely.

Many today do not have the mind of Christ and they justify sin and evil.

And some go so far as to call evil, good, genuinely believing that the mistaken things they teach about Christian doctrine are actually true.

This of course is why we must put on the breastplate of righteousness so that we can stand in the evil day and to stand against the schemes of the devil.

All of the armor of God is found in the Person of Christ. We are to "put on Christ" (Romans 13:14; Galatians 3:27) and when we do, we are clothed in all of the "armor" Paul describes in Ephesians 6. Christ is our Salvation (1 John 5:11-13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; John 3:16); he is our righteousness (Romans 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Philippians 1:11); he is The Truth (John 14:6); he is the heart of the Gospel (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 4:12); our faith is imparted to us from him (Romans 12:3). This is why Paul does not maintain a consistent description of the "armor" (1 Thessalonians 5:8). It isn't the particular pieces that are important but rather that they are all aspects of our Lord and Saviour in whom every believer "lives, and moves, and has his being." (Acts 17:28) All who have "put on Christ" and in him have "put on the new man" (Ephesians 4:24) and become a "new creature in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17) are necessarily clothed in all of the "armor" Paul describes.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Again, it is illogical for Jesus to pray for Peter's faith to not fail if there was no possibility of Peter's faith failing. You don't believe that a Christian's faith will fail. Yet, Jesus prayed so that Peter's faith would not fail.

Well, maybe you are misunderstanding what Jesus meant by what He said?

"But I have prayed for you, in order that your faith fail not."
(My prayer being the reason that your faith fail not; and as noted, it didn't. Peter's courage failed; (Peter failed) and he denied knowing Jesus, but he never denied Jesus was the Messiah. There is a difference there!)

See Strong's #2443

The structure of the Greek explains to us that the prayer was not:
"Father I pray Peter has enough faith to not fall away."

It was more like:
"Father; You are faithful to grant requests that are in Your will. I know Peter belongs to You. Man is but dust and Peter's faith will fail if You don't sustain him, even though he doesn't realize right now that he needs sustaining."

Father - "Jesus, you know the plan is from the foundations of the world. You also know this hinges on you. Faith won't fail Peter because you have requested it not. I grant your request because you are my obedient son and I love you."

(And all God's people said: "Amen!")

Also, Jesus said, "“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me." (Matthew 23:37) (NLT).

So here we see the Lord's will not coming to pass. Jesus desired the children of Jerusalem to be gathered together like a hen protects her chicks, but they would not let him do so. It was not because GOD elected them to do so.

Jesus, although being God incarnate had a human will of his own. He also prayed that there be another way for the atonement to be accomplished and "the cup pass from" (him) "Not my will, but Your's be done."

The fact that sentient entities (including all carbon based life forms with the cerebral capacity to make decisions) are capable of making choices that are independent of the desires of other entities (God included); does not prevent God's plan from being accomplished.

As the One who has the power, presence, knowledge and wisdom to act and counter act in real time, to ensure His will is accomplished, is what makes God God!

Yes, Peter can refer to "us" as the whole of humanity.

Except that isn't what he does in that passage!

If things are as you say, then GOD would be responsible for people remaining as sinners with them never having any kind of hope of salvation. What about the whole, love your enemies thing Jesus taught?

You miss the fact that no one wants redemption to begin with.

You also neglect to consider that if God did what was fair; we'd all be condemned.

If God so willing to suffer the vessels fitted for destruction, for the sake of saving His elect? Who are you oh man to reply against God: Why have You made me this way. Has not the Potter power over the clay; to make one lump unto honor and another unto dishonor.

Besides the fact that God is not the one who made you that way; your own "free will" did that. You "freely will" to sin.

Also, Scripture says that GOD is angry at the wicked every day (Psalms 7:11). So...... why is GOD angry at His own decision to make some to remain as sinners?

The wrath of God is a manifestation of His holy and just character. The only reason God is no longer angry at believes is because Christ paid for their sin. If given the choice to be in Adam's position; every single one of us would have transgressed. Even as living in a fallen world; we still chose to obey or disobey the conscience God created us all with. And this is why the "wages of sin" are earned upon the choices to act (or not act) that sinners make. This is why we are all condemned by "the Law".

Why did it grieve GOD in Genesis 6 that many in the global flood turned out to be wicked?

Because God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. God is not a sadist.

Could not GOD just elect them to salvation whereby He would no longer feel grieved by their wickedness? Come on now. Your belief here makes no sense in light of Scripture.

God could have elected and atoned for the entire human race. What would you think of a God who just allowed anyone into His kingdom regardless of whether they believed or not?

Where much is forgiven is much love; but where there's no accountability; that's not love, (nor is it justice).

Romans 2:4 does not say Unconditional Election or describe a process like Unconditional Election. You are just injecting your biased belief into this verse and not comparing Scripture with Scripture.

Romans 2:4 also does not say that your own good will leads you to repentance. Romans 2:4 doesn't actually mention election at all. You correctly interjected the notion of election in there, because the verse implies that you are not the source of Godly repentance that leads unto salvation. You want to believe you are. You have not the conviction of your personal worthiness of God's wrath to throw your existence unconditionally upon His sovereign mercy. This is why you so vehemently oppose this doctrine.

THE NATURAL MAN HATES GOD

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake:" Mathew 10:22

"For every one that does evil hates the light, either cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." John 3:20

"The world cannot hate you; but me it hates, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil" John 7:7

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own; but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." John 15:18

"I have given them thy word: and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as 1 am not of the world." John 1 7:14

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved" Matthew 10:22, Mark 13:13, Luke 21:17

"Than shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake" Matthew 24:9

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22).

Now how is it that one continues in His goodness?

(these aspects of Godliness are given to a person by God and do not originate with any individual's natural inclinations)

Numbers given to words are from the Strong's Concordance

(O.T.) - Old Testament,
(O.S.C.) - only saved can,
(N.T.) - New Testament
(S.R.W.) - same root word,
(T.) - translated as

BELIEF - (S.R.W. as faith) (NT) I Pete 1:21
BORN OF THE LIGHT - Jn 1:4 & 12 & 13
CHOSEN - (T. choose) Jn 15:16
FAITH - I Sam. 26:23, Rom 12:3, Ga1 2:16 & 20, 3:2 & 5 & 22, Eph 3:12, Phil 3:9, Col 2:12, Jude 3, 1 Thess 1:3 (faith is a work) II Thess 1:11
FEAR OF GOD- Ps 130: 4, 34:11, Mal 3:5, 2:5, Jer 32: 40, (O.S.C.) Jer 44:10, Rom 3:10-18
FORGIVENESS - 2 Cor 2:7-10, Mk 2:7, Lk 5:21
FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT - Prov 8:19
GENEROSITY - (T. caring) 2 Cor 8:16
GENTLENESS - 2 Cor 10:1, Ps 18:35
GODLY - 2 Pete 1:3
HEALING - Ps 147:3, Mal 4: 2, Ex 15:26, Is 61:1 (spiritual)
HONESTY - Matt 7: 17, Lk 8:19, (not in O.T.) (S.R.W. as goodness)
HUMILITY - Deut 8:2 & 3 & 16, 2 Chron 2: 21, Is 2:7+, 5:13
JOY - Rom 15:13, Ps 16:11, 126:5, Eccl 2: 26, Ezek 6:22
LONG-SUFFERING - (S.R.W. Patients) Gal 5:22
MEEKNESS - Zep 2:3, 2 Cor 10:1
NOT WALKING AFTER THE FLESH - Eph 2:5
OBEDIENCE - I Jn 5: 1-3, Rom 5:19,6:16, Eph 2:10
PATIENTS - Rom 15:4 & 5, Col:10-12, Rev 1:9
PEACE - Phil 7 & 9, 2 Thess 3: 16, Jn 14:26, 16:3
PRAISE - Is 38: 17+, 61:11 & 13, (O.S.C.) Prov 28: 4, Ps 145:10, 115:17
PRAYER - Rom 8:15 & 26 & 27 & 34, Heb 7:5
QUICKENED - Eph 2:1 & 5, Ps 80:18, Jn 5:21, 6:63
REPENTANCE - Rom 2:4, Acts 5:31, Jer 31:17-19
RIGHTEOUSNESS - 2 Pete 1:1, 2 Cor 9:9 &10
SALVATION - Rom 6:23
TEMPERANCE - Gal 5:22 (def. - 1 Cor 7: 9)
THANKSGIVING - Heb 13:5, I Cor 14:16, 2 Cor 9:9-11, (O.S.C.) Jer 30:18 &19, Is 51:3
TRUST - Ps 22:9
TRUTH - Jn1:17
TURNING - Ps 85:4, Jer 31:18
WILL - Matt 8:2 & 3, I Cor 1:1, 11:27, Lk 10: 22, Jn 5:21, 6:37, Rom 9:16 &18, Phil 2:13, I Cor 1:1, Jer 30:21&22
WISDOM - Prov 2:6, 8: 14, 14: 6, (def - 8:14), 9:10
WORKS - Eph 2:10, 2 Tim 4:18, Heb 13:21, 4: 10, Rev 15: 3, (def.- Rom 9:15), Jn 1:12&13, Titus 3:5
WORSHIP - Rev 3:9, Acts 17: 24-26, (O.S.C.) Jn 4:23 &24

Try re-reading the verse again in context.

- ya mean like 2 Peter 3:9???

It does not read with a Calvinistic bias. Nothing is suggestive here of a forced repentance given to Israel.

Romans 11 actually explains to us who "Israel" is. The Israel of promise is actually the collection of all believers both OT and NT. together. The saints of all time are the true Israel because we are in Christ and He is the "seed of Abraham".

Peter is defending his position to the unbelieving Jews and he is saying that Savior is at the right hand of God and that He can give repentance to Israel if they want it.

"If they wanted it" is not in the text! LOL

This does not mean Israel at that time as a nation repented.

Agreed; because that passage is not talking about Israel after the flesh.

So the fact that Israel as a nation did not receive repentance is proof that Peter was not talking about how Jesus was giving some kind of forced repentance upon the nation of Israel.

God used the nation of Israel because He promised Abraham that through his seed (Christ) all nations would be blessed.

It is talking about the chastisement or correction of the OT saint and not forced salvation.

Salvation isn't forced; its necessity comes to the sinner's attention as a result of being "woked" by the Spirit of God.

This is a heart felt cry of help from God to serve Him again, and not some kind of talk of forced regeneration. Here is is in the NLT.

"I have heard Israel saying, ‘You disciplined me severely, like a calf that needs training for the yoke. Turn me again to you and restore me, for you alone are the LORD my God." (Jeremiah 31:18) (NLT).

Note the verse does not say: "Hang on God, I'm about to turn myself." It's a distinct recognition that without God's "turning"; I will remain forever lost in my sin.

Hear the cry of the OT saint here? He is crying for help for God to restore Him and to turn Him back to God's good ways.

And why is he calling on God to do this? If he really has a "free will" why doesn't he do it for himself?