God will Save ALL - Even those considered unorthodox by many denominations

[GodsWatchman]

οπου ο σκωληξ αυτων ου τελευτα και το πυρ ου σβεννυται

Isaiah 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Psalms 22:2-6 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded. But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

Job 25:4-6 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell (Gehenna).

What? Gehenna is on the tongue?

Well - Why not - Heaven is within you also!
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Der Alter - There is a great gulf betwixt you and us - I offer you this cool water now - if you can recieve it.

 

[Der Alte]

* * *
Der Alter - There is a great gulf betwixt you and us - I offer you this cool water now - if you can recieve it.

No you are offering me deadly poison, a chopped up piece of a Bible. The two passages I have asked you to respond to scare the living daylights out of you. You have been running for almost two days throwing irrelevant verse after irrelevant verse at me, anything to avoid actually reading and responding to my posts.

 

[GodsWatchman]

No you are offering me deadly poison, a chopped up piece of a Bible. The two passages I have asked you to respond to scare the living daylights out of you. You have been running for almost two days throwing irrelevant verse after irrelevant verse at me, anything to avoid actually reading and responding to my posts.

What you fail to realize is simply the Nature of Jesus - Who, being the Express Image of God said "Love thy enemies" not "Cook thy enemies".

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

To imply that God is going to Torchure the bulk of His creation ('cause He couldn't get it right) - is BLASPHEMOUS. To imply that God doesn't Love His enemy (the "unRegenerate man" full of Pride of Doctrine) - is to imply that God is a hypocrite - MORE BLASPHEMY.

The truth is - Where the worm dies not means this:
The OldMan cannot die - because Christ has not yet allowed it! Though you might "seek death - you cannot find it!". Because it is not your time.

And because of this- That fire will not go out! It burns within - and anger from pride exposes itself from the heat.

It is a STATE OF BEING - not a "place to be". And many are exibiting the strong hold of that Strong Man ...that Goliath has you bound up. A tongue is ON FIRE OF HELL.

James 3:6 and the tongue is a fire, the world of the unrighteousness, so the tongue is set in our members, which is spotting our whole body, and is setting on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by the gehenna.

Romans 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

A person may be in HELL (Gehenna) and not even know it!

Isaiah 42:25 Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart.

The continuance of this thread with you is certainly not for your benefit - but rather, for the benefit of those that Love God. That light may shine in the darkness and expose decietfulness of man and lift up the Glory of God and our Lord Jesus - for the BLOOD that He shed for All Men.

 

[Der Alte]

What you fail to realize is simply the Nature of Jesus - Who, being the Express Image of God said "Love thy enemies" not "Cook thy enemies".

Two false statements, I fully know the Nature of Jesus. And I have never stated nor implied “cook thy enemies” Still no response to Jeremiah 13:11-17, and 32:35!

To imply that God is going to Torchure the bulk of His creation ('cause He couldn't get it right) - is BLASPHEMOUS. To imply that God doesn't Love His enemy (the "unRegenerate man" full of Pride of Doctrine) - is to imply that God is a hypocrite - MORE BLASPHEMY.

More false statements, I have not implied any of these things!

The truth is - Where the worm dies not means this:
The OldMan cannot die - because Christ has not yet allowed it! Though you might "seek death - you cannot find it!". Because it is not your time. And because of this- That fire will not go out! It burns within - and anger from pride exposes itself from the heat.

Who set you as a judge over me or anyone else? Show me from scripture “that the worm dies not means this: The OldMan cannot die?” How did the entire early church understand this passage?

It is a STATE OF BEING - not a "place to be". And you my friend are exibiting the strong hold of that Strong Man ...that Goliath has you bound up. Your tongue is ON FIRE OF HELL.

Prove from scripture that Gehenna is a state of being. Still pretending to be a judge, in violation of scripture. Since you are so good at interpreting scripture you should have no problem answering my questions about Jeremiah 13:11-17, and 32:35.

You are in HELL (Gehenna) and don't even know it!

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Explain these scriptures, Jeremiah 13:11-17, and 32:35.

 

[SallyNow]

"Go ahead murder, rape, rob, pillage. It does not matter what you do, God will save you in the end. You may be punished a little bit but then you will be in paradise with God and you will willingly love Him just like the rest of mankind.

We must be forgiven for these crimes; yet if on Earth we are forgiven, our eternal destiny may be good. Yet we can't really say; we do not know what happens afterwards, we don't know who goes. Perhaps purgatory? I don't really know; maybe I should not be saying anything. I don't want to get anyone in trouble...

Maybe we should all pray on this and hope an archeologist, a Christian expert, and a Greek scholar who specializes in ancient Greek comes along and sheds some light.

*edited to remove a statement I didn't feel comfortable posting*

 

[FineLinen]

The false UR doctrine encourages sin and a Godless lifestyle. "Go ahead murder, rape, rob, pillage. It does not matter what you do, God will save you in the end. You may be punished a little bit but then you will be in paradise with God and you will willingly love Him just like the rest of mankind.

Correct me if I am wrong but I count five names. How does the fact that five people from the 19th century may have written Christian hymns, sermons or essays make my statement nonsense?

Your math is amazing D.A! Wow, you counted five names. There are plenty more including....oh never mind, we shall pursue them later.

Unfortunately you have not done your homework. Hannah W. Smith, evangelist and author of many remarkable books, one of which has been reprinted by the B.G. Evangelistic Association, minus three chapters, is indeed from the 1900's, and few men have reached higher levels of faith and experience in the Holy One!

George MacDonald, whose life was the catalyst that brought individuals like C.S. Lewis to Jesus Christ from atheism, continues to be a rich resource for anybody that longs to know Jesus Christ more fully! He of course was from the 1900's.

Elhanan Winchester was a patriot and preacher in the time of George Washington. You are of course slightly off on his sojourn in this realm!

William Law will go down in the history of the Christian Church as one of the finest examples of Godliness! Again, d.a. you were off by a few centuries!

Introduction To William Law

http://www.passtheword.org/William-Law/wl-intro.htm

William Law's On-Line Manuscripts

http://www.passtheword.org/William-Law/index.html

Sir Isaac Watts, D.A, author of over 600 hymns, was not from the 19th Century. So, my dear old friend, your math score is 100% with a 60% for your history part! Keep up the excellent work!

[move]"Through the Son God made the whole universe, and to the Son He has ordained all creation shall ultimately belong."[/move]

 

[FineLinen]

Он сообщил нам тайну Его желания.

И это находится в гармонии с милосердной целью Бога для правительства мира, когда времена готовы для этого-

цель, который Он лелеял в Его собственном мнении восстановления целого создания, чтобы найти его одну Голову в Христе; да, вещи на небесах и вещах на земле, чтобы найти их одну голову в Нем.

И Вы также, кто в Нем был сделан наследниками, будучи выбранным заранее в соответствии с намерением Его, чей мог бы, выполняете во всем проект собственное желание.

Jesus Christ Only

http://www.dayspring.com/movies/webmovies/names.html

[move]"...God's merciful purpose...the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ..."[/move]

 

[Der Alte]

My earlier response:
The false UR doctrine encourages sin and a Godless lifestyle. "Go ahead murder, rape, rob, pillage. It does not matter what you do, God will save you in the end. You may be punished a little bit but then you will be in paradise with God and you will willingly love Him just like the rest of mankind.

Response to listing five irrelevant names:
Correct me if I am wrong but I count five names. How does the fact that five people from the 19th century may have written Christian hymns, sermons or essays make my statement nonsense?

Your math is amazing D.A! Wow, you counted five names. There are plenty more including....oh never mind, we shall pursue them later.

Unfortunately you have not done your homework. Hannah W. Smith, evangelist and author of many remarkable books, one of which has been reprinted by the B.G. Evangelistic Association, minus three chapters, is indeed from the 1900's, and few men have reached higher levels of faith and experience in the Holy One!

George MacDonald, whose life was the catalyst that brought individuals like C.S. Lewis to Jesus Christ from atheism, continues to be a rich resource for anybody that longs to know Jesus Christ more fully! He of course was from the 1900's.

Elhanan Winchester was a patriot and preacher in the time of George Washington. You are of course slightly off on his sojourn in this realm!

William Law will go down in the history of the Christian Church as one of the finest examples of Godliness! Again, d.a. you were off by a few centuries!

Introduction To William Law

William Law's On-Line Manuscripts

Sir Isaac Watts, D.A, author of over 600 hymns, was not from the 19th Century. So, my dear old friend, your math score is 100% with a 60% for your history part! Keep up the excellent work!

And here we see inane sarcasm and derison used to cover up for the fact the Mssr Linen has no rational, reasonable response to my post. How does the listing of five names, from whatever period in the entire history of the world, prove that my assertion that Universalism encourages a sinful and Godless lifestyle, was nonsense, as FL accused?

Are you also going to overwhelm us with post upon irrelevant post to conceal the fact you can't answwer my questions?

 

[FineLinen]

We must be forgiven for these crimes; yet if on Earth we are forgiven, our eternal destiny may be good. Yet we can't really say; we do not know what happens afterwards, we don't know who goes. Perhaps purgatory? I don't really know; maybe I should not be saying anything. I don't want to get anyone in trouble...

Maybe we should all pray on this and hope an archeologist, a Christian expert, and a Greek scholar who specializes in ancient Greek comes along and sheds some light.

*edited to remove a statement I didn't feel comfortable posting*

Hi there Sally. Our Father has instructed us to forgive our enemies 70X seven. Rest assured His intructions to us come from what He is. Do you think that our Father punishes with a goal in view, or is punishment an end in itself?

[move]"We must die, and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again. But God does not take away life; instead He deviseth ways for the banished to be restored."[/move]

 

[Der Alte]

Он сообщил нам тайну Его желания.

И это находится в гармонии с милосердной целью Бога для правительства мира, когда времена готовы для этого-

цель, который Он лелеял в Его собственном мнении восстановления целого создания, чтобы найти его одну Голову в Христе; да, вещи на небесах и вещах на земле, чтобы найти их одну голову в Нем.

И Вы также, кто в Нем был сделан наследниками, будучи выбранным заранее в соответствии с намерением Его, чей мог бы, выполняете во всем проект собственное желание.

Jesus Christ Only

"...God's merciful purpose...the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ..."

Translation below. And your point is?

It(He) informed us secret of His(Its) desire.

And it is in harmony with the merciful purpose of the God for the government of the world when times are ready for this purpose

The purpose, by which it(He) cherished in His(Its) own opinion of restoration of the whole creation to find his(its) one Head in the Christ; yes, things in heavens and things on the ground to find their one head in it(Him).

And you also who in it(Him) has been made by successors, being chosen beforehand according to intention of it(Him) whose could, carry out in all the project own desire.​

​

 

[FineLinen]

U.R. doctrine encourages sin and a Godless lifestyle.

Yes indeed, believing that our Father will accomplish His cherished purpose of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ is an abominable doctrine indeed. God forbid that His purpose could possibly be realized!

George MacDonald is a prime example of how belief in our Father's cherished purpose will lead one into sin and a "Godless lifestyle."

"I will accept no explanation of any way of God that involves what I should scorn as false and unfair in a man.

If it is said, 'It may be right of God to do something that it would not be right of man to do,' I answer, 'Yes, because more is required of men--not less.' God can have no duty that is not both just and merciful. More and higher justice and righteousness is required of Him by Himself, the Truth--greater nobleness, more penetrating sympathy, and nothing but what, if an honest man understood it, he would say was right."

-George MacDonald- (God The Merciful & Just)

Series 1

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken1/htm/TOC.htm

The Child In The Midst

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken1/htm/ii.htm#ii

The Consuming Fire

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken1/htm/iii.htm#iii

The Higher Faith

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken1/htm/iv.htm#iv

It Shall Not Be Forgiven

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken1/htm/v.htm#v

The New Name

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken1/htm/vi.htm#vi

The Heart With The Treasure

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken1/htm/vii.htm#vii

The Temptation In The Wilderness

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken1/htm/viii.htm#viii

The Eloi

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken1/htm/ix.htm#ix

The Hands Of The Father

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken1/htm/x.htm#x

Love Thy Neighbor

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken1/htm/xi.htm#xi

Love Thine Enemy

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken1/htm/xii.htm#xii

The God Of The Living

http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken1/htm/xiii.htm#xiii

"All that is needed to set the world right enough for me--and no empyrean heaven could be right for me without it--is, that I care for God as He cares for me; that my will and desires keep time and harmony with His music...." -George MacDonald (The Inheritance)

[move]"We must die, and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again. But God does not take away life; instead He diviseth ways for the banished to be restored."[/move]

 

[Der Alte]

Yes indeed, believing that our Father will accomplish His cherished purpose of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ is an abominable doctrine indeed. God forbid that His purpose could possibly be realized!

George MacDonald is a prime example of how belief in our Father's cherished purpose will lead one into sin and a "Godless lifestyle."

Irrelevant! Law is one man. The prison population in the U.S., in 2002, was 2.08 million.

Crime Statistics in the U.S. 2000

Murder - 15,517
Rape - 90,186
Robbery - 407,842
Burglary - 2,049,946

 

[G4m]

My earlier response:
The false UR doctrine encourages sin and a Godless lifestyle. "Go ahead murder, rape, rob, pillage. It does not matter what you do, God will save you in the end. You may be punished a little bit but then you will be in paradise with God and you will willingly love Him just like the rest of mankind.

Der Alter, your post raised a few questions for me:

Isn't christianity based on being able to have any and all sins forgiven?

Haven't we all sinned and don't we all continue to sin, no matter what religion or doctrine we follow?

What about the thief that was crucified with Jesus, from what I understand he was leading a sinful life, yet Jesus promised him paradise.

 

[FineLinen]

U.R. doctrine encourages sin and a Godless lifestyle.

Dr. Arthur Tappan Pierson -The Bible & Spiritual Life-

"This view (Restitution of All) is so clearly scriptural that the only surprise is that it has not been more definitely and widely held. It adds immeasurably, both to the glory of Christ as the coming King, and the Father as the former and framer of the ages. It is the period typified by the eighth day of the Mosaic Code: the perfect glory of Christ, reserved for 'the morrow after.' The millennial 'Sabbath.' And while the millenial period is limited to a thousand years, there are no definite limits to this final age of glory."

P. B. Fitzwater- (Professor of Systematic Theology- Moody Bible Institute) Christian Theology P. 407

"Then there is the Universalist who declares that the redemption provided by Christ avails for the salvation of all men. This means that what God has done for the salvation of sinful men accrues to the benefit of all men. This view of Universalism is quite widespread. Many leaders in the evangelical church hold to this view, even though they have not dared to declare it." -Dr. P. B. Fitzwater-

"In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus every knee will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be openly and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by all beings in the heavens, of those on the earth and those in the underworld."

http://newhopemusic.com/bringing.htm

[move]Every knee, every tongue, all beings openly and freely proclaims His Lordship![/move]

 

[FineLinen]

Dr. Clarence Jordan

Founder Koinonia Community

Habitat For Humanity

The Cotton Patch Gospels

"God will seek us--how long?

Until He finds us. And when He's found the last little shriveling rebellious soul and has depopulated hell, then death will be swallowed up in victory and Christ will turn all things to the Father that He may be all in all. Then every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

U.R. doctrine encourages sin and Godless lifestyle

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/y/e/yenation.htm

Ye nations round the earth, rejoice
Before the Lord, your sovereign King,
Serve Him with cheerful heart and voice;
With all your tongues His glory sing.

The Lord is God; ’tis He alone
Doth life and breath and being give;
We are His work, and not our own;
The sheep that on His pastures live.

Enter His gates with songs of joy,
With praises to His courts repair;
And make it your divine employ
To pay your thanks and honors there.

The Lord is good, the Lord is kind;
Great is His grace, His mercy sure;
And the whole race of man shall find
His truth from age to age endure.


-Isaac Watts-

[move]He comes to make His blessings flow far as the curse is found![/move]

 

[GodsWatchman]

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

I do stand correct in this manner. I wanted to show that Hell can be a "state of thinking" - but in publicly announcing your "state of mind" I was wrong and do appologize.

 

[zeontes]

What about the thief that was crucified with Jesus, from what I understand he was leading a sinful life, yet Jesus promised him paradise.

I know this was addressed to Der Alter, but I just wanted to remind you only the one thief was made that promise.

 

[SallyNow]

Hi there Sally. Our Father has instructed us to forgive our enemies 70X seven. Rest assured His intructions to us come from what He is. Do you think that our Father punishes with a goal in view, or is punishment an end in itself?

Eep! I don't know! I'm not that far in learning to even begin to answer that.

*Wanted: One Ancient Greek Scholar to shed some light on a confusing thread*

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter, your post raised a few questions for me:

Isn't christianity based on being able to have any and all sins forgiven?

Haven't we all sinned and don't we all continue to sin, no matter what religion or doctrine we follow?

What about the thief that was crucified with Jesus, from what I understand he was leading a sinful life, yet Jesus promised him paradise.

Fair question. The thief confessed his sins, on the cross, acknowledged that he deserved his punishment, but pleaded for mercy. So what about those who continue to live a sinful lifestyle, with no thought of their creator, will they be rewarded by going immediately to paradise the instant they die? And OBTW paradise and heaven are synonymous in the N.T.

Didn't Jesus say earlier that many will come to Him telling about all the mighty works they did in His name and He will say, "I never knew you?" We might try to casually dismiss that, e.g. with me saying to someone I only met, "I never knew you, but now I am beginning to." But that doesn't work, because we, unlike Jesus, are finite. Before the world was, Jesus knew the beginning from the end. So "never" on the lips of Jesus is different than you or I saying never.

I recently preached a sermon on "Memorial Days." One of the verses I referred to was Eclesiastes 9:5. The point I was making was that memorials are for the living, not the dead. And in the middle of my sermon as I spoke these words, I suddenly noticed this phrase, "the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward" The dead do not have any more rewards. There is no second chance after death!

Unfortunately some people think, by quoting a lot of stuff from 19th century writers they somehow invalidate passages like these.

Ecc 9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”​

I see a lot of quotes from "Theologians" of a century ago and out-of-context verses quoted from the writings of the apostles but I don't see any verses where God, or Jesus, speaking, clearly states that all of mankind will be saved, reconciled, or redeemed, reagardless of how they lived their lives.

 

[G4m]

Fair question. The thief confessed his sins, on the cross, acknowledged that he deserved his punishment, but pleaded for mercy. So what about those who continue to live a sinful lifestyle, with no thought of their creator, will they be rewarded by going immediately to paradise the instant they die?

But don't we all continue to live like this? Don't we all continue to sin? Also what happens to that thief? Do you think he would escape judgement?

And OBTW paradise and heaven are synonymous in the N.T.

OK, thanks...

Didn't Jesus say earlier that many will come to Him telling about all the mighty works they did in His name and He will say, "I never knew you?" We might try to casually dismiss that, e.g. with me saying to someone I only met, "I never knew you, but now I am beginning to." But that doesn't work, because we, unlike Jesus, are finite. Before the world was, Jesus knew the beginning from the end. So "never" on the lips of Jesus is different than you or I saying never.

Interesting point! But what are you saying that implies? I mean Jesus created everything, right? So what would it mean if he also never knew you, but also created you?

I recently preached a sermon on "Memorial Days." One of the verses I referred to was Eclesiastes 9:5. The point I was making was that memorials are for the living, not the dead. And in the middle of my sermon as I spoke these words, I suddenly noticed this phrase, "the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward" The dead do not have any more rewards. There is no second chance after death!



Unfortunately some people think, by quoting a lot of stuff from 19th century writers they somehow invalidate passages like these.

Ecc 9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”​

I see a lot of quotes from "Theologians" of a century ago and out-of-context verses quoted from the writings of the apostles but I don't see any verses where God, or Jesus, speaking, clearly states that all of mankind will be saved, reconciled, or redeemed, reagardless of how they lived their lives.

Isn't Solomon also talking about righteous as well as the unrighteous here? So wouldn't that verse only be in relation to earthly rewards?


Also what do you think that hope is for the living? I'm a bit puzzled by that, because Solomon spends all of Ecclesiastes saying how worthless life and our days are. I don't know what this hope would then be...