God vs. Nature

[brightlights]

A vote and a hypothetical question:

The poll has to do with the personal, semi-personal, or entirely impersonal nature of reality. Here's the question:

What would be different about your life if you believed that every event and experience came to you not from "nature" or "chance" but from God? Everything from your body working properly (or dysfunctionally) to you getting a paycheck to the earth spinning around the sun. Would you be terrified or comforted?

 

[quatona]

A vote and a hypothetical question:

The poll has to do with the personal, semi-personal, or entirely impersonal nature of reality. Here's the question:

What would be different about your life if you believed that every event and experience came to you not from "nature" or "chance" but from God?

Nothing of significance.

Would you be terrified or comforted?

Neither.
I guess I would have problems fathoming why a person would intentionally create and control such a complex drama, though.

 

[Paradoxum]

I don't know, it depends how personal this God is. Can you talk to it? Might life might not change much if it is just a deist God.

I'm not sure if I'd be comforted or terrified, or changed much at all. If everything happens the same, then this God allows great suffering. Should I be comforted that this God might compensate people for this, or worry that God would allow it in the first place?

 

[brightlights]

A deist God, by definition, is uninvolved in daily affairs. He would be the 2nd option in the poll.

 

[Paradoxum]

A deist God, by definition, is uninvolved in daily affairs. He would be the 2nd option in the poll.

I meant, how God would affect my life depends on what sort of God he is.

 

[Davian]

A vote and a hypothetical question:

The poll has to do with the personal, semi-personal, or entirely impersonal nature of reality. Here's the question:

What would be different about your life if you believed that every event and experience came to you not from "nature" or "chance" but from God? Everything from your body working properly (or dysfunctionally) to you getting a paycheck to the earth spinning around the sun. Would you be terrified or comforted?

Dunno. I have never been there myself. I suppose it would depend on the nature (pun intended) of the deity that one might believe in. Why care about a god that doesn't care, for instance?

 

[circuitrider]

I couldn't answer the poll because I think there needs to be more options.

I believe God set up natural laws which most of the time run what happens. At the same time I believe God does interact with his creation. I suppose I could have picked the middle ground answer but my understanding is that God set up the laws of nature. So how much of that then is God, nature, etc.?

 

[Eudaimonist]

What would be different about your life if you believed that every event and experience came to you not from "nature" or "chance" but from God? Everything from your body working properly (or dysfunctionally) to you getting a paycheck to the earth spinning around the sun. Would you be terrified or comforted?

That depends. Is this a Deist God that allows a divinely created nature to run its course, or is this a God that has plans for people, and thus tinkers with nature at times with supernaturally caused events?

If it is the Deist God, it wouldn't make any difference to me at all.

If it is the other sort, I don't suppose that I would be terrified unless I thought this God to be highly evil. For instance, if thousands of people, good and bad, die in a natural disaster, this could indicate a malicious God. If God is a cosmic Big Brother, that would spell Trouble.

If God is benevolent (towards me, anyway), this might be comforting, however, even benevolence can have its problems. The more intervention there is, however well-intentioned, the more this can become like a someone owning me like a pet animal. I take good care of my pet cat, but I don't give that cat much freedom to be a cat (e.g., living out in the wild hunting birds and mice).

Out of all of the choices, the Deist God would be best.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[brightlights]

The God I'm talking about is the personal cause of all events. So there would be no such thing as nature per se.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

A vote and a hypothetical question:

The poll has to do with the personal, semi-personal, or entirely impersonal nature of reality. Here's the question:

What would be different about your life if you believed that every event and experience came to you not from "nature" or "chance" but from God?.../quote]

I would believe that God is broke, and needs a loan every Sunday.

I would believe that Genocide, Rape, Slavery, and Misogyny are moral acts. Not only that, but I would admit this, and argue the point, on a public forum.

Whenever I questioned my beliefs, I would become terrified of going to Hell.

Fear would be my moral compass.

I would disown family members who thought differently.

Other stuff too, but that's a start.

 

[brightlights]

I couldn't answer the poll because I think there needs to be more options.

I believe God set up natural laws which most of the time run what happens. At the same time I believe God does interact with his creation. I suppose I could have picked the middle ground answer but my understanding is that God set up the laws of nature. So how much of that then is God, nature, etc.?

Yours would be option 2. God establishes a natural order but is only occasionally involved in it.

 

[brightlights]

A vote and a hypothetical question:

The poll has to do with the personal, semi-personal, or entirely impersonal nature of reality. Here's the question:

What would be different about your life if you believed that every event and experience came to you not from "nature" or "chance" but from God?.../quote]

I would believe that God is broke, and needs a loan every Sunday.

I would believe that Genocide, Rape, Slavery, and Misogyny are moral acts. Not only that, but I would admit this, and argue the point, on a public forum.

Whenever I questioned my beliefs, I would become terrified of going to Hell.

Fear would be my moral compass.

I would disown family members who thought differently.

Other stuff too, but that's a start.

Sounds like your beef with Christianity is more than intellectual.

 

[brightlights]

That depends. Is this a Deist God that allows a divinely created nature to run its course, or is this a God that has plans for people, and thus tinkers with nature at times with supernaturally caused events?

If it is the Deist God, it wouldn't make any difference to me at all.

If it is the other sort, I don't suppose that I would be terrified unless I thought this God to be highly evil. For instance, if thousands of people, good and bad, die in a natural disaster, this could indicate a malicious God. If God is a cosmic Big Brother, that would spell Trouble.

If God is benevolent (towards me, anyway), this might be comforting, however, even benevolence can have its problems. The more intervention there is, however well-intentioned, the more this can become like a someone owning me like a pet animal. I take good care of my pet cat, but I don't give that cat much freedom to be a cat (e.g., living out in the wild hunting birds and mice).

Out of all of the choices, the Deist God would be best.


eudaimonia,


Mark

So you wouldn't mind a Santa Claus type God who is benevolent but largely uninvolved but you don't want a God who has any authority over you?

 

[Eudaimonist]

So you wouldn't mind a Santa Claus type God who is benevolent but largely uninvolved

If the degree of involvement is small, it might not be so bad. A Yoda or an Obi Wan Kenobi that helps out or gives advice at convenient moments might be okay. The role here is "friend" or "mentor".

but you don't want a God who has any authority over you?

Authority like a slave/pet owner? No. I would have to be utterly lacking in self-respect to want such a thing.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Received]

Maybe furthest, Mark, you're saying that (God or not God) people are fully capable of knowing the good for themselves (i.e., no blind spots)?

 

[brightlights]

If the degree of involvement is small, it might not be so bad. A Yoda or an Obi Wan Kenobi that helps out or gives advice at convenient moments might be okay. The role here is "friend" or "mentor".



Authority like a slave/pet owner? No. I would have to be utterly lacking in self-respect to want such a thing.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Would it be wrong to assume from this that autonomy is an ultimate value of yours?

The existence of a creator/sustainer God to whom we owe our existence and allegiance would certainly threaten your autonomy.

 

[Received]

I remember Chris Hitchens (whom I loved and partly despised) would claim that God isn't acceptable simply on the grounds that he would be like a dictator, given that he knows your thoughts, feelings, plans, etc. I never got that reasoning. What makes a dictator have the bad ring isn't the knowing everything part, but the misuse of knowledge for bad ends.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Would it be wrong to assume from this that autonomy is an ultimate value of yours?

Yes, it is an aspect of the ultimate good, but not a complete description of that good.

The existence of a creator/sustainer God to whom we owe our existence and allegiance would certainly threaten your autonomy.

Only if God is malevolent, or if God is benevolent in a misguided way. The Deistic God, or the "friend" or "mentor" God, might be fine. (I don't have a "Santa Claus" God in mind.)

Maybe furthest, Mark, you're saying that (God or not God) people are fully capable of knowing the good for themselves (i.e., no blind spots)?

Yes, people are capable of knowing the good, though brightlights did catch a crucial point -- autonomy is an essential aspect of personal flourishing. You cannot flourish through someone else's actions, or as a puppet, or simply by following rules by rote. It is an activity for which you personally are the cause, and it requires judgment (phronesis).


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[brightlights]

Only if God is malevolent, or if God is benevolent in a misguided way.

How can we possibly speak of God being misguided? A man-made god could certainly be misguided. We can even say that God does not exist. But if there is a creator that made us and our finite intellect, isn't it the height of arrogance to judge God as if we stood over him in any way or had any knowledge that he did not have?

The Deistic God, or the "friend" or "mentor" God might be fine.

A God who gives advice but not commands?

 

[Eudaimonist]

How can we possibly speak of God being misguided?

Very easily. I was speaking of hypotheticals. I mentioned several. I personally make no assumptions whatsoever that the hypothetical creator of the universe can't make mistakes in judgment.

But if there is a creator that made us and our finite intellect, isn't it the height of arrogance to judge God as if we stood over him in any way or had any knowledge that he did not have?

No, that isn't arrogance. We are capable of thinking and making judgments about ethics. That whole "arrogance" line is just an Argument from Intimidation that is designed to silence objections.

A God who gives advice but not commands?

Yes, advice is preferable to commands.


eudaimonia,

Mark