'God the Son' is unbiblical

[OldAbramBrown]

... a womb rather than a grave ...

It is a poetic sign of both,

 

[Dave G.]

God the Father calls Jesus His Son in which He is well pleased. Then in Hebrews 1:8 we get this:

Hebrews 1:8​

8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

 

[AV1611VET]

Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus called God the Son. ...

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Mark 5:18 And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.
19 Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.
20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.

 

[Paul4JC]

We will all be judged by the Son one day.

[Jhn 5:22-23 NIV] 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

[Heb 1:3 NIV] 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

 

[Hawkins]

The purpose of the Bible is for human salvation instead of the composition of God.

Ants can never understand the anatomy of a human, thus if you have a plan to redeem a hive of ants, you won't set a criteria to say that ants must understand human anatomy in order to be saved. Similarly, understanding God's Trinity is not part of the criteria, in terms of the New Covenant, of human salvation. You can tell this from the faith statements of the Apostles' Creed which sets a standard for one to recognize a physical church possessing the power of salvation.

That said. God's Trinity is revealed as an acknowledgment to those who can stay closer to God. We humans know of who Jesus is by means of the testimonies from the chosen disciples and apostles. While Thomas said that,

John 20:27-28
Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

This is kept as part of the disciples' testimonies on who Jesus is.

 

[ChurchBuilder]

Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus called God the Son. ... Yet, this phrasing is used over and again... Such a central concept to the Trinitarian description of God has been kept out of the Bible scriptures. I don't think that is an accident.
Whether you are a Trinitarian or not... there must be something unacceptable to God about using that particular phrase.
There must be a subtle misunderstanding in using that phrase, or it would be in the Bible.

You make a very good point. Thank you. God bless.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Of course they do.

I'll provide the stats:

Global Christian Population Projected to Reach 3.3 Billion by 2050

There will be over 2.6 billion Christians worldwide by the middle of 2023 and around 3.3 billion by 2050, according to a report published in early January by the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.

goodfaithmedia.org

Reports that there are an estimated 2.6 billion Christians globally.

Largest Christian Denominations in the World

A list of the different types of Christianity found around the world as well as the number of believers.

www.worldatlas.com

Reports

1.285 billion Catholics
270 million Eastern Orthodox
86 million Oriental Orthodox
85 million Anglicans

So with those numbers alone we find that of the estimated 2.6 billion Christians 1.726 billion of them believe that God died, and they eat God's flesh and drink God's blood. As all of these churches confess the Nicene Creed and subscribe orthodox Christology, that Jesus Christ is both God and man in perfect union. Of these, only the Oriental Orthodox reject the wording of the Council of Chalcedon speaking of Christ in two natures (dyo physeon), instead subscribing to the original language of St. Cyril of Alexandria who preferred to speak of Christ as God and man in one nature (mia physis). However all here deny the heresies of Nestorius and Eutychus; and thus teach the orthodox Christian confession that Jesus Christ is, in His undivided Person, both fully God and fully human.

If you'd like supporting evidence for this, then consider that Chalcedon (451 AD) is regarded as one of the Ecumenical Councils by

The Catholic Church

The Council of Chalcedon – 451 A.D. - Papal Encyclicals

The council was convoked at Nicaea but later transferred to Chalcedon, so as to be close to Constantinople and the emperor.

www.papalencyclicals.net

The Eastern Orthodox Church

The Fourth Ecumenical Council - Content - Ecumenical Patriarchate: Holy and Great Council

The Fourth Ecumenical Council Held in Chalcedon, near Constantinople, 451. Under Emperor Marcian. 630 Bishops were present. Monophysite Controversies The Council was concerned,...

www.orthodoxcouncil.org

The Anglican Communion

https://www.anglicancommunion.org/media/493671/The-Inheritance-of-Ecumenical-Councils-28-October-final-text_AOOIC_021122.pdf

The above is a PDF file, so to read it your browser should be able to read files in pdf format

As for the Oriental Orthodox, they do not accept Chalcedon, but they do accept Ephesus which condemned the errors of Nestorius and championed the Christology of St. Cyril, here is an article from a Coptic Orthodox website that addresses the history of the Nestorian controversy and provides information on this subject matter--though for our purposes here it is simple to observe that the Coptic Orthodox Church, one of the Oriental Orthodox or Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches, does indeed accept the Council of Ephesus and holds St. Cyril of Alexandria (and his Christology) in high esteem.

Saint Cyril of Alexandria and the Council of Ephesus | Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Los Angeles

www.lacopts.org

And, of course, all* of these Churches confess that the Eucharist is the true and literal body and blood of Jesus Christ.

*Anglicans would be a more mixed bag, as Anglican theology/theologies on the Sacraments can be more varied.

This leaves us with the great big tent of Protestantism to address,

Lutheranism: 80-90 million

Member Churches

LWF membership represents over 77 million Christians in the Lutheran tradition in 99 countries across the globe The LWF has 150 member churches, including two associate member churches (AM), as well as ten recognized churches and congregations, and two recognized councils.

www.lutheranworld.org

The LWF, the largest international organization of Lutheran churches, reports 77 million total Lutherans among their member churches

ILC welcomes 17 new member churches representing 4.15 million Lutherans worldwide - International Lutheran Council

BELGIUM – On September 26, 2018, the International Lutheran Council (ILC) welcomed seventeen new church bodies into membership, representing approximately 4.15 million Lutherans across the globe. Their addition more than doubles the number of Lutherans worldwide associated with the ILC, bringing...

ilc-online.org

The smaller ILC, has about 7.15 million Lutherans among their member churches.
There are also Lutheran churches which don't belong to either. Which makes exact numbers of Lutherans more difficult.

The point being here, this is another Christian theological tradition that embraces the Council of Chalcedon, and also emphatically teaches and confesses the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Lord's Supper.

Here is the Athanasian Creed as contained in the Book of Concord (the Lutheran Confessions), scroll to the second to last paragraph talking about the Hypostatic Union:

The Athanasian Creed

Written against the Arians. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and...

bookofconcord.org

And here is what the Augsburg Confession has to say about the Real Presence of Christ in His Supper,

Article X. Of the Lord's Supper.

1 Of the Supper of the Lord they teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed 2 to those who eat the Supper of the Lord; and they reject those that teach otherwise.

bookofconcord.org

Without any need to go further than this, we have already established--by the numbers--that numerically a majority of Christians do, in fact, believe these things. We can see that of the 2.6 billion Christians we've already covered over 1.8 billion who believe that Jesus Christ is indeed fully God and man, and reject Nestorianism, i.e. they beleive God died on the cross and that God has a mother (her name is Mary). And of those covered, they all believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Supper.




Since nobody is claiming that God is a man, then this is an irrelevant statement for this discussion.
Nobody is saying God is a tuna sandwich either.

-CryptoLutheran

The numbers here get really skewed here with American Christianity. American made Christianity majorally would be Baptists, American Evangelicals, SDA, Charismatics and Pentecostals. Baptists, American Evangelicals and SDA comprise a moderate number or percentage who reject the efficaciousness of the sacraments. BY FAR, AND I MEAN BY FAR, the theological rejection of the efficaciousness of baptism and the Lord's Supper are the PENTECOSTALS AND CHARISMATICS. It is impossible to estimate the numbers here. Somewhere between 250-400 million individuals worldwide. The numbers are staggering. Putting in perspective: Approximately one in ten Christians reject the efficaciousness of the Sacraments---baptists, American Evangelicals and SDA. Adding Charistmatics and Pentecostals into the mix, it is approx. one in four.

American made Christianity is a different creature from historic Christianity, yet powerfully influencial.

 

[arrepto veritate]

Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus called God the Son. ... Yet, this phrasing is used over and again... Such a central concept to the Trinitarian description of God has been kept out of the Bible scriptures. I don't think that is an accident.
Whether you are a Trinitarian or not... there must be something unacceptable to God about using that particular phrase.
There must be a subtle misunderstanding in using that phrase, or it would be in the Bible.

Jesus is the fulfillment of the law given by Moses from God. Part of the law is the Shema Deut 6:4-5 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! You must love the Lord your God with your whole mind, your whole being, and all your strength." However Godship is explain between the Father, Son and Spirit, there can only be one God. I suspect that is the reason why the Bible never says God the Son or God the Spirit just God the Father would indicate 3 Gods or polytheism and that can not be.

You pose a fascinating question why is the sonship so important? If God, Son and Spirit are all part of the God, making one God, and the early church deemed subordinationism and modalism as heresies, how does this fit? Tellyontellyon thank you for the research project.

 

[The Liturgist]

You are missing the point of my question.. it is not about believing in the trinity or not believing in the trinity...
Maybe spend a bit of time reading my question and my responses in the thread and you might get the gist of what I'm actually asking.

God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are theologically correct, and there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that God does not want us to use these titles, or God the Father, for that matter (who is referred to as Our Father in Heaven or The Father by Christ our Lord, God and Savior).

 

[The Liturgist]

The numbers here get really skewed here with American Christianity. American made Christianity majorally would be Baptists, American Evangelicals, SDA, Charismatics and Pentecostals. Baptists, American Evangelicals and SDA comprise a moderate number or percentage who reject the efficaciousness of the sacraments. BY FAR, AND I MEAN BY FAR, the theological rejection of the efficaciousness of baptism and the Lord's Supper are the PENTECOSTALS AND CHARISMATICS. It is impossible to estimate the numbers here. Somewhere between 250-400 million individuals worldwide. The numbers are staggering. Putting in perspective: Approximately one in ten Christians reject the efficaciousness of the Sacraments---baptists, American Evangelicals and SDA. Adding Charistmatics and Pentecostals into the mix, it is approx. one in four.

American made Christianity is a different creature from historic Christianity, yet powerfully influencial.

That said, fortunately the majority of Christians, and the five largest worldwide denominational groupings, which are the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans and Reformed / Calvinists, are sacramental. Also the word Charismatic usually is used to refer to people who have Pentecostal-like practices albeit in existing denominations, so for example, there are some Charismatic Catholics and Charismatic Anglicans etc, and they are sacramental, so its not quite as bad as you suggest. Also I have heard that some Pentecostal churches do value the sacraments as a result of Presbyterian influence.

But I do share your lament about the spread of non-sacramental Christianity.

 

[The Liturgist]

The point is that Words Matter. Especially for Christians who rely entirely on the words of scripture, subtle differences in words can make big enough differences in theology to get people burned at the stake. And also, you want to be worshipping and believing correctly don't you? Do you read and think about it yourself, or do simply accept your ministers position?
Can you really be a believer if you haven't examined clearly and closely what you pupport to believe?

I have examined closely the doctrines and beliefs of the Early Church, and those churches which continue to adhere to its doctrine, and the Old and New Testament Scriptures that were selected as canonical by the Early Church, and her creeds, and the writings of her fathers, and I can declare that since not denying the deity of Christ is ordinarily neccessary for salvation according to Quicunque Vult*, sometimes called The Athanasian Creed, that the use of the phrase God the Son, which is also implied by Matthew 28:19, is justifiable, and also edifying from a catechetical perspective, since it serves to remind the laity of the deity of Christ.

*On the other hand, salvation, particularly for children and the mentally disabled, can be facilitated through the Holy Sacraments of Baptism, Chrismation and the Eucharist, which function noetically and do not require mental comprehension, contrary to the views of credobaptists. It is also worth noting that credobaptism did not exist prior to the late 16th century, contrary to the claims of the Landmark Baptists.

 

[The Liturgist]

If you think that's wild, just wait when you discover that I also eat God's flesh and drink His blood.

-CryptoLutheran

Me too. The Eucharist is the medicine of immortality, and we are required to partake of it for our salvation, according to John ch. 6, and according to the Petrine Epistles, this makes us partakers of the Divine Nature.

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

​

Statement of Faith​

The Nicene Creed​

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Clare73]

Are people getting the actual point I'm trying to make? The question I'm asking...
It's not a question about the Divinity of Jesus, that's taken as read. It's about why does God emphasise Jesus being Son through the Scriptures?

There MUST be a significance to that.

Not when "the Son of God" and "God the Son" is a distinction without a NT difference.

 

[Clare73]

The point is that Words Matter.

And where do we find the words "Trinity" or "sovereignty" in the Greek, but nevertheless they are the teaching of the NT.

 

[Clare73]

I'm just a Buddhist who is trying to investigate Christianity and trying to get answers to the questions that I ask (I don't really want Jesus's Divinity proven to me... I accept that is what Christians believe... I want to know what they think about Sonship, and why it is emphasized)

And as such you are not well versed in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures,
nor do you have a grasp of the concepts therein,
nor apart from the Holy Spirit can you apprehend the Judeo-Christian Scriptures.

Case in point: your question has been answered multiple times from those Scriptures, but you still cannot understand the answer and will not receive it from the NT Scriptures.

I don't doubt that you are looking for answers, but they are understood only by those who are believing in and trusting on the work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus of Nazareth for the remission of their sin, which is necessary for reconciliation and right standing with God (Jn 3:18).

It works like this.
God doesn't give us the answers so that we can evaluate them to decide if we agree and will believe them or not.
God gives no answers to those who do not come to him having already decided to receive and believe them when he gives them to us.

If we have the answers, and hold them for another reason, not believing in and trusting on Jesus for the remission of our sin and reconciliation with God nor obeying him, having those answers will serve to infinitely increase God's judgment against us, so it is mercy if he withholds them.

 

[Clare73]

Thank you.. your answer made sense and is also suggesting the answer to another thing that has been confusing me... I.e., the necessity of baptism by water.
I had thought that it represented a death and rebirth in the grave...
But now I'm thinking that the watery baptism is actually a womb rather than a grave, so rebirth in Christ echo's Christ's birth in his mother's womb. From the womb he is born as fully man and fully God... Prefiguring what we can become... Human but with a restored heart.
Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

In Titus 3:5, it represents the washing and renewal by the Holy Spirit in the new birth of Jn 3:3-8, and
in Col 2:11-12, it also represents the "being buried with Christ into death in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead. . .we too may live a new life" of Ro 6:1-4, 8-10.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus could not be born of a fleshly man, because it is the seed of man that became corrupt during the fall. So Jesus could not be born of corrupted seed. But Jesus could be born of a woman who was a virgin that’s pure
So, through the work of the Holy Ghost, Luke 1:35 KJV, the seed of God was made to fertilize the virgin’s eggs so that Jesus would be born in the likeness of sinful flesh, Romans 8:3 KJV,

A comment on the text.

Christ was like sinful man, in that he was human, but he was not himself sinful man. He said he was sinless (Jn 8:46).

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Is Jesus God?
Is he also the "only a son" of God?

I don't see a problem. Just because the phrase "God the son" is not in scripture does not mean it is unacceptable. It is a logical conclusion.

Myself I don't agree with the phrase, "God the Son" because when the angel that came and announced Jesus birth to Mary, that angel didn't say her child would be God, but that he would be "God's Son.(Luke 1:35) Why is it that this angel said Jesus would be God's Son, if this angel wanted to teach Mary and us that Jesus would be God? Also I know there are those in the world who say that "God himself" came to earth to provide the ransom, but why is it the scriptures don't say that, but instead they say "God sent forth his Son" to do this.(Galatians 4:4,5; 1John 4:9,10) It just seems to me that people want me to believe that God can't inspire his servants to write down his thoughts accurately. So since the scriptures say at Luke 1:35 and other scriptures that Jesus is God's Son or the Son of God, instead of God, or God the Son, then I'm going to believe what's written down, that Jesus was and is "the Son of God" or "God's Son", not "God the Son." John the Baptist never called Jesus, "God the Son." He called him, "the Son of God." None of Jesus apostles or disciples called Jesus, "God the Son" but instead said Jesus was "the Son of God" or "God's Son. There is a very big difference between the statement, " God the Son" and "the Son of God," they don't mean the same thing. At John 3:16 Jesus said: "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten Son, and just two verses later at John 3:18 Jesus used the phrase "the only begotten Son." Jesus didn't use the phrase, "God the Son" at John 3:16 or John 3:18.
Also at John 10:36 this scripture shows that the Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy. Jesus said in defense of this charge, "Do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, I am "God's Son?" When Jesus was defending himself concerning this charge of blasphemy he didn't say he was "God the Son" but instead he said he was "God's Son."

So as far as those who say that just because phrase "God the Son" isn't in the scriptures and that it's a phrase that reaches a reasonable conclusion, then I ask, why didn't Jesus use the phrase, "God the Son?" Jesus can reach far better reasonable logical conclusions than any human or humans that has ever been on earth or ever will be on earth. He never used the phrase "God the Son" so no human being is going to teach me that they can reach better reasonable logical conclusions than Jesus Christ. "God's Son" "the Son of God" and "the only begotten Son of God" are all reasonable logical conclusions that Jesus Christ himself agrees with. These phrases, "God's Son" "the Son of God" and "the only begotten Son of God" are the reasonable logical conclusions I will stick with.

 

[Clare73]

Myself I don't agree with the phrase, "God the Son" because when the angel that came and announced Jesus birth to Mary, that angel didn't say her child would be God, but that he would be "God's Son.(Luke 1:35)

Yes, that revelation was given to us later in NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), from the apostles, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, where

The NT apostles identify Jesus as the YHWH of the OT.

1) Mt 3:3 (Isa 40:3) - Isaiah prophecies a voice of one calling in the desert, "Prepare the way for YHWH," which was John the Baptist (Mk, Lk).
John prepared the way for Jesus (Mk 1:-8, Lk 3:16, Jn 1:29-34). . .making Jesus the YHWH of Isa 40:3.

2) Ro 10:9, 13 (Joel 2:32) - Joel prophesies that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved," which Paul quotes and applies to Jesus. . .making Jesus the YHWH of Joel 2:32.

3) Heb 1:6 (Dt 32:43) - Moses said, "Rejoice, O nations, with his people, and let all the angels worship him (YHWH), for he will avenge the blood of his servants (Septuagint translation), which Hebrews quotes and applies to Jesus. . .making Jesus the YHWH of Dt 32:43.

4) Eph 4:8-9 (Ps 68:18) - The psalmist states, "When you ascended on high. . .that you, O YHWH, might dwell there," which Paul applies to the ascended Christ. . .making Christ the YHWH of Ps 68:18

5) Jn 19:37 (Zec 12:10) - Zechariah prophesies that they will look on YHWH (12:1-2), the one they have pierced, which John applies to Jesus. . . making Jesus the YHWH of Zec 12:1-2, 10.

6) Lk 4:18-21 (Isa 61:1, 8) - Isaiah's prophecy identifies YHWH of vv. 7-8 with the Messiah of v. 1, which Jesus applies to himself. . .
making Jesus the YHWH of Isa 61:1, 7-8.

7) Rev 1:12-18 (Isa 44:6, 48:12) - In Rev 1:12-18, Jesus (1:18, 2:8) identifies himself as the First and the Last, which is YHWH of Isa 44:6, 48:12. . .making Jesus the YHWH of Isa 44:6, 48:12.

8) In Rev 21:6, 22:12-13, Jesus (1:18, 2:8) is the Alpha and Omega who is the Lord God of Rev 1:8.

9) In Rev 20:11-13 w/ Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39, the one on the throne is Jesus, who in Rev 21:7 is God. . .making Jesus the God of Rev 21:7.

10) Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 (Ge 1:1, Isa 44:24, Jer 10:16) - Isa 44:24 says YHWH created alone, while Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 say Jesus brought all things into being, created all things including angels and by his power holds them in existence, and made the universe. . .so according to John, Paul and Hebrews, Jesus is the Elohim Creator YHWH of Ge, Isa and Jer.