God The Father Exists

[2ducklow]

that's circular reasoning.

no it isn't. all I said was that YHWH is God the Father. one is a name, YHWH, the other is a title, God the Father. It is the same individual.

it does not answer what the 4 letters YHWH means.

it's god's name.

you have already stated that god was YHWH before he became a father.

was, is and always will be YHWH.

what i am pointing at is that the fatherhood of god is inseparable to the sonship of jesus christ being the firstborn and all that. the fatherhood cannot exists without the sonship.. as far as their unique relationship is concern, god became a father simultaneously that jesus became a son. is it not?

Not sure I can agree with you because of what you are implying. I would state it differently. god the Father is a father because he had a son. You seem to be implying that God the Father is a father eternally because he is eternal and his name is God the father therefore Jesus is eternal begotten of the son. with that I do not agree.

so the key is to find out what YHWH means since you assumed that this state of existence is prior than the fatherhood of god and prior to sonship of the son.

YHWH is not a prior state of existance. YHWH is God's name, it is the name of the god who has the title of God the Father. YHWH became a father when he begat Jesus, and thus aquired the title of god the Father. Just as a human dad whose name is George doesn't have the title of George the Father until he begats a son or daughter. so you have falsely assumed something I do not believe once again.

fortunately. the OT translators have explained the meaning of YHWH for us. it means I am that I am. is it not? not much of an explanation for moses to understand who god was, but later in scriptures god's (YHWH) nature was slowly revealed.

so when YHWH became a father, all we have to do is to compare according to scriptures if there is a common nature that god the father shares with his son jesuschrsit.if there are existing scripture that proved that the father's nature was in the son, then the sonship cannot be figuratively interpreted but the meaning is literal.

Jesus having the same nature as god would not make him a literal son of God. Jesus being begotten by God would make him a literal son of god. Jesus having the same nature as god would mean he has the same character as God. You trinitarians use nature as if it meant being, it doesn't. nature doesn't mean being. God is not a nature, he is a being, he exists, he is a spirit being. Jesus is not a nature, he is a being, he exists, he is a human being.

your whole doctrine was based on the priori assumption that the father son relationship was only figuratively.

Jesus is the literal son of god because God created new human male seed to begat Jesus with by using it to fertilize Mary's egg thus causing her to conceive Jesus. You apparently call that figurative, I call it literal. You apparently call Jesus having the same nature, meaning being, with God to mean a literal father and son, I do not. I don't see we can take it further than that.

so when you see scriptures that speaks about the common nature of the two like both are light, spirit, life, etc..

How Jesus is the light is clarified in revelation. Jesus is called the lamp andf god is the light. Jesus is the lamp that the light of God shines through. God was in christ shining his light through the lamp of Jesus. I can provide scripture if you doubt that the bible says this.
As to spirit, Jesus is not a spirit and he even emphatically stated that he was not a spirit.
Jesus is the life because he is the propitiation for our sins, and god is life because God accepts Jesus sacrifice for our sins. It was Jesus who died not god. God could not redeem us because according to the law only a near kinsman could redeem another man. Jesus a man is our near kinsman and the redemptive price that was required by law to redeem sinfull man was death, a price God cannot pay. Only Jesus a man our near kinsman could pay the price for our salvation.

you interpreted it according to your assumption, that jesus as light is a figure of speech only and not the same light that the father would have been light., spirit or life for that matter.

I interpret it with scripture that says Jesus is the lamp and god is the light.

Revelation 21:23 And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb.ASV

Lamp and light are two entirely different words in Greek. the KJV falsely translates the Greek word luchnos as light when it means lamp.

Jesus is the lamp god is the light.

me on the other hand, think of the father and son as having the same common nature or essence. not since essence are qualitative and not quantifiable, their essence could simply mean ONE.

you are using nature and essence as if they meant being, they do not, if you take nature and essence according to what the words mean, you have stated here that god and Jesus have the same character and essential qualities.

and yet having the same essence, there are obvious distinctions. thus the formula 3 in 1. (same principle can be applied to HS)

except trinity doesn't teach 3 person in one god, it teaches 3 persons are one god, trinitarians falsely claim thathree persons of god are in one god, but in reality they teach that god the father is god, god the son is god, god the holy spirit is god, and god is one god, all 3 are the one god, You trinitarians say they all 3 are one god then deny it by saying the 3 are in one god. Saying god the father is god, god the son is god, god the holy spirit is god and there is only one god, doesn't equate to 3 persons of god within one god, it equates to 3 gods are one god, or 3 beings are one being. so saying trinity teaches 3 in one, is calling trinity something it is not.

also no scripture says God has a nature, or Jesus has a nature, or that they have the same nature, or that they have or are esseneces or have the same essence. Since you use the words nature and essence in ways that the words do not mean, and since the words are not ascribed to either Jesus or God the Father, you have an extremely weak case, biblically speaking. Actually I don't think anyone who uses the words nature and essence know what they mean in relationship to how they use them to defend the trinity.

 

[2ducklow]

2ducklow,

Since it is clear the tenet that Jesus is God is an irrational tenet then those that choose to hold to it are by definition irrational at least when it comes to what they consider a mystic(beyond understanding) belief. To try any rational argument with them on it beyond pointing out their belief is irrational is an exercise if fruitlessness and serves not to advance your message. It is common sense that the Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son and yet those who believe Jesus is God choose to believe to believe otherwise. I wish they would repent since their beliefs destroys the true faith in the power of God to completely overcome one’s sins but they choose what they choose and will be held accountable for doing so. Perhaps you would do better to discuss other aspects of the gospel with them and others and leave this point up to God.

he that hath ears to hear will hear what I am saying, he who doesn't won't. Trinitarians when pressed will admit that their doctrine is incomprehensible, yet all there explanations are an attempt to explain trinity in a comprehensible mannar. I just unravel the confusing con tradictory explanations exposing the incomprehensible nonsensical trinity explanations, such as James whites here in this thread, of trinity. Hey some people do cross word puzzles, i unravel confusing, contradictory, nonsensical trinity explanations such as James white's and expose them for what they really say. What James white really said in a nutshell is this, this is my take in italics below of what he is saying, in an orderly not jumbled up confused mannar.

3 beings in one being is a contradiciton, and trinity doesn't teach that 3 beings are in one being, it teaches that 3 persons are in one being. A being is a no nothing being like a rock (a what) or a nonpersonal being like a cat, which is the kind of being god is, and god is only a personal being because he has 3 personalitie traits (3 who's) called father son and holy ghost.
A person is a what and a who, God is a person. god is not a person he is a what . a person is a what and a who, a person of God is a who, not a what and a who. God is a person and he is not a person, persons of God are persons (what and who's) persons of god are not persons they are only personality traits (3 whos')


The first paragaraph is qualified by James white with his contradictions. after all trinity is beyond comprehension so it a contradiction can only be explained with contradictions.

 

[&Abel]

Revelation 2

Message to Ephesus

1"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this: 2'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;
3and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary.
4'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
5'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.
6'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

Message to Smyrna

8"And to the angel of the church in (Q)Smyrna write: (R)The first and the last, who (S)was dead, and has come to life, says this: 9'I know your (T)tribulation and your (U)poverty (but you are (V)rich), and the blasphemy by those who (W)say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of (X)Satan.
10'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be (Y)tested, and you will have tribulation (Z)for ten days Be (AA)faithful until death, and I will give you (AB)the crown of life.
11'(AC)He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches (AD)He who overcomes will not be hurt by the (AE)second death.'

Message to Pergamum

12"And to the angel of the church in (AF)Pergamum write: The One who has (AG)the sharp two-edged sword says this: 13'I know where you dwell, where (AH)Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny (AI)My faith even in the days of Antipas, My (AJ)witness, My (AK)faithful one, who was killed among you, (AL)where Satan dwells.
14'But (AM)I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the (AN)teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, (AO)to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.
15'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the (AP)Nicolaitans.
16'Therefore (AQ)repent; or else (AR)I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with (AS)the sword of My mouth.
17'(AT)He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches (AU)To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden (AV)manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a (AW)new name written on the stone (AX)which no one knows but he who receives it.'

Message to Thyatira

18"And to the angel of the church in (AY)Thyatira write: (AZ)The Son of God, (BA)who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this: 19'(BB)I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.
20'But (BC)I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman (BD)Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they (BE)commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
21'(BF)I gave her time to repent, and she (BG)does not want to repent of her immorality.
22'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who (BH)commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of [a]her deeds.
23'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who (BI)searches the minds and hearts; and (BJ)I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
24'But I say to you, the rest who are in (BK)Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the (BL)deep things of Satan, as they call them--I (BM)place no other burden on you.
25'Nevertheless (BN)what you have, hold fast (BO)until I come.
26'(BP)He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds (BQ)until the end, (BR)TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;
27AND HE SHALL (BS)RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, (BT)AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;
28and I will give him (BU)the morning star.
29'(BV)He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

10For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.


34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

 

[Kerwin]

God is Jesus, not Jesus is god.

That also is a contradiction and God is not a God of contradictions.

If I understand the average Trinitarian position it is that the concept is beyond reason but not irrational which is also a contradictory statement. I assume they are trying to say that the Trinitarian concept is rational but beyond our current knowledge base to understand but that answer does not fit the facts as it does not resolve the contradictions that abound in arguments defending the Trinitarian tenet.

The most rational description I can come up for the Trinitarian concept is that “God” is a family name and that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three members of that family but that is polytheism.

I suppose we could also go by the similar Hindu concept in which the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three parts of the composite being God even though they are beings themselves. This is a limited form of the pantheistic belief and is in practical terms polytheism but it does have some support in the natural world as there are some example of it such as Iceland moss. It also assumes that until component being known as The Father fathered the component being known as Jesus the composite being God was incomplete.

I also believe both of those descriptions are considered heresy by most Trinitarians though in trying to explain the Trinity they often sound like they are supporting them.

 

[&Abel]

I agree, it is polytheism

its the same as the greek gods....different "persons" but all at the status of "god" above humans

theres no difference

 

[hybrid]

If I understand the average Trinitarian position it is that the concept is beyond reason but not irrational which is also a contradictory statement. I assume they are trying to say that the Trinitarian concept is rational but beyond our current knowledge base to understand but that answer does not fit the facts as it does not resolve the contradictions that abound in arguments defending the Trinitarian tenet.

okay so how do you rationalize god unite himself with humanity in Christ?
or do you believe this to be biblical at all in the first place?
i certainly hope that you don't regard this truth as a metaphor.

 

[hybrid]

Since you use the words nature and essence in ways that the words do not mean, and since the words are not ascribed to either Jesus or God the Father, you have an extremely weak case, biblically speaking.

trinity as a weak case eh. ?
well that's an improvement from an outright wrong and contradictory stance.

I don't think anyone who uses the words nature and essence know what they mean in relationship to how they use them to defend the trinity.

actually, I don't think anyone who uses the words nature and essence know what they mean in relationship to how they use them to attack the trinity

 

[2ducklow]

trinity as a weak case eh. ?
well that's an improvement from an outright wrong and contradictory stance.

That's not what I said. Actually I beleive there is no rational case for trinity period.

actually, I don't think anyone who uses the words nature and essence know what they mean in relationship to how they use them to attack the trinity

Sure I can, all I have to do is look up the def. of nature or essence and it attacks how trinitarians use the word to defend trinity. Nobody knows what nature or essence means when trinitarians use those words to define Jesus and God, You certainly avoided defining the words. what does Jesus has 2 natures, god and man mean? what does nature mean in that sentence?

na⋅ture   /ˈneɪ

tʃər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ney-cher] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1.the material world, esp. as surrounding humankind and existing independently of human activities.2.the natural world as it exists without human beings or civilization.3.the elements of the natural world, as mountains, trees, animals, or rivers.4.natural scenery.5.the universe, with all its phenomena.6.the sum total of the forces at work throughout the universe.7.reality, as distinguished from any effect of art: a portrait true to nature. 8.the particular combination of qualities belonging to a person, animal, thing, or class by birth, origin, or constitution; native or inherent character: human nature. 9.the instincts or inherent tendencies directing conduct: a man of good nature. 10.character, kind, or sort: two books of the same nature. 11.characteristic disposition; temperament: a self-willed nature; an evil nature. 12.the original, natural, uncivilized condition of humankind.13.the biological functions or the urges to satisfy their requirements.14.a primitive, wild condition; an uncultivated state.15.a simple, uncluttered mode of life without the conveniences or distractions of civilization: a return to nature. 16.(initial capital letter, italics

) a prose work (1836), by Ralph Waldo Emerson, expounding transcendentalism.17.Theology. the moral state as unaffected by grace.—Idioms 18.by nature, as a result of inborn or inherent qualities; innately: She is by nature a kindhearted person. 19.in a state of nature, a.in an uncivilized or uncultured condition.b.without clothes; nude; naked.20.of or in the nature of, having the character or qualities of: in the nature of an apology.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nature

so pick one, but none of them fit. Here is how the trinitarian argument goes.
Jesus is both god and man. How? because he has 2 natures, God and man.

Now let's analise that. God is a being, man is a being. They exist, that's the def. of being, something that exists.
so that means that since jesus has 2 natures, god and man, according to trnitarains,
and since god is a being, and man is a being,
the conclusion is that nature = god (according to trinitarians)
and God = being,
therfore nature=being.
that's how you guys use the word nature anyway.

 

[hybrid]

that's the def. of being, something that exists

no. the def of being, something that exists in a certain way.
how you define words only reveal you dont understand what you are alking about. sorry

 

[2ducklow]

no. the def of being, something that exists in a certain way.
how you define words only reveal you dont understand what you are alking about. sorry

are you serious? I define being as something that exists and you say I don't know what I'm talking about. that is ridiculous.

be⋅ing   /ˈbi

ɪŋ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [bee-ing] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1.the fact of existing; existence (as opposed to nonexistence).2.conscious, mortal existence; life: Our being is as an instantaneous flash of light in the midst of eternal night. 3.substance or nature: of such a being as to arouse fear. 4.something that exists: inanimate beings.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/being


Don't suppose you care to define nature. you can't and remain a trinitarian. that was a challange.

 

[hybrid]

Don't suppose you care to define nature. you can't and remain a trinitarian.

well i read your provided definition, and the intended meaning was there, you just refuse to see it, what about nature as reality?

also, you are picky in you definition with being, i have provide some definition of being and persons from the other thread that also convey the intended meaning for trinitarians.

but i guessed you would have avoided or rejected these definitions because it is devastating to your case.

 

[hybrid]

so when i talked about the nature of god it is the same as trying to answer the question what is god. so can you imagine the difficulty there? its like a computer program trying to understand its own matrix.

and when you say god is one, you have the right answer to the wrong question.

 

[2ducklow]

well i read your provided definition, and the intended meaning was there, you just refuse to see it, what about nature as reality?

reality , . what is a god reality? please explain. what is a man reality? please explain.


consider this.

trinitarians say that Jesus is both God and man because he has two natures, god and man. you say nature means reality.
so here is the trinitarian equation we have.
Jesus= 2natures=god and man = 2realities = god and man.

2 natures are just other words for god and man so really the trinitarian explanation is just saying.

Jesus is god and man because he is god and man.

 

[2ducklow]

so when i talked about the nature of god it is the same as trying to answer the question what is god. so can you imagine the difficulty there? its like a computer program trying to understand its own matrix.

there is absolutely no difficulty in answering the question what is god. God is a spirit, the bible says so. the difficulty is explaining the trinitarian, nonbiblical concept of god being a substance other than spirit. you don't need a computer to figure out that god is a spirit.
so you resort to unbiblical terms that have no meaning in your jargon like nature, essence, reality, all of which you never define except as 'god and man".

a computer works on the principle of logic not illogic, so it could never answer illogical questions put to it like "how is the number 3 the number 1. It would just start smoking until it blew up.

 

[hybrid]

reality , . what is a god reality? please explain. what is a man reality? please explain.


consider this.

trinitarians say that Jesus is both God and man because he has two natures, god and man. you say nature means reality.
so here is the trinitarian equation we have.
Jesus= 2natures=god and man = 2realities = god and man.

2 natures are just other words for god and man so really the trinitarian explanation is just saying.

Jesus is god and man because he is god and man.

but i have already time and time again addressed your dualistic thinking about these things, you keep insisting that there was really actual separation in nature when there is none. i already asked you a simple question to tell me where exactly the head ends and the body starts to categorically say that they are two different things and you can't. why because there is none, the separation is only imagined and exists in your head, the same way your dumb formulas are just your imaginations.

consider these... maybe reality is "indivisible".
the point is that the seemingly separation of things implied that something whole is being divided . it is that intrinsic wholeness of reality that is being addressed by the unity of the 3 divine persons.

 

[hybrid]

there is absolutely no difficulty in answering the question what is god. God is a spirit, the bible says so.

yes, but what is spirit?

the difficulty is explaining the trinitarian, nonbiblical concept of god being a substance other than spirit. you don't need a computer to figure out that god is a spirit.
so you resort to unbiblical terms that have no meaning in your jargon like nature, essence, reality, all of which you never define except as 'god and man".

i never invented trinity. it was simply presented in scriptures whereas Christ were described in non-human terms/characteristics that even the early ancients Christians never failed to notice. and to assign meaning and treat them all as figure of speech is missing the mark. imho. why do you think that even christ himself talk in parables to convey matters concerning spirit if it were easy to logically explain.?

a computer works on the principle of logic not illogic, so it could never answer illogical questions put to it like "how is the number 3 the number 1. It would just start smoking until it blew up.

exactly , your mind is a mini logical computer that cannot comprehend reality. illogical trinity it may seemed, the logical aspect of course is in the faith that this idea was divinely inspired.

to show you it has basis in reality take for example the lowly electron. the scientist tell us that an electron is "non-local" (it's a quantum physics term). so what do you mean by non-local?

nobody understands.. right? but if you make a logical deduction to the behavior of nonlocality, it can be said that it is nowhere and everywhere simultaneously. if that is the best rationalization we can make of it, is it logical at all? if the everyday item like electron eludes our logical understanding of its true nature, how much more its creator. to say god is one, means nothing anymore, i think the human civilization is past way beyond polytheism. but to say we are one in god thru christ. now that is an idea basically unexplored. but to be sure obviously oneness cannot be found in our beliefs nor our minds.

2dl, not everything in the universe is algorithmic. there are non-algorithmic aspects in reality, like spirit, consciousness. and for sure god is beyond the simple algorithm you wanted to in case your idea of god.

 

[Kerwin]

okay so how do you rationalize god unite himself with humanity in Christ?

Jesus has a perfect faith and so is the house God chooses to live in and those that believe that Jesus is the King that God appointed over heaven and earth will become a house that Jesus will live in and because God lives in Jesus, God will also live in those that believe just as Jesus asked in prayer. Those that believe are not Jesus and Jesus is not God but we all are bound by the unity of the spirit of holiness that flows between us.

1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

 

[&Abel]

if jesus wasn't god then his work would be pointless...the reason we have access to that spirit is because god created a perfect human version of himself

we now have access to jesus' spirit which is also the spirit of the father

if jesus was just another man he could never have defeated death

if this were the case I'm sure Enoch(7 generations after Adam) could have taken care of that pesky sin problem

 

[Kerwin]

if Jesus wasn't god then his work would be pointless...the reason we have access to that spirit is because god created a perfect human version of himself

Your argument seems to be that only the death of God can grant humans access to the Spirit of God and therefore Jesus must be God since scripture states man has access to the Spirit after Jesus died on the cross. The situation though is that there is no scriptural support for the idea that only the death of God can grant humans access to the Spirit of God. On the other hand we are told that a Jesus did not sin and thus was a sacrifice without fault and thus pleasing to God.

we now have access to Jesus’ spirit which is also the spirit of the father

You misunderstand scripture since those who are reborn also have a new spirit created like God in true holiness and righteousness and yet they are neither Jesus nor God. Each person belonging to the true church, including God, has their own spirit but those spirits are united by the spirit of holiness that flows between them. It is through that spirit that Jesus lives in each of those that believe and God lives in Jesus.

if Jesus was just another man he could never have defeated death

As scripture states “The wages of sin is death” and Jesus did not sin so death could not keep hold of him since he did not earn those wages.

if this were the case I'm sure Enoch(7 generations after Adam) could have taken care of that pesky sin problem

Scripture states “Enoch walked with God” but that does not necessary mean he did not sin since we know others that walked with God did sin. I will confidently say he did sin since he was not reborn in spirit and you cannot stop sinning by human effort. Jesus was born the first time with the spirit in the image of the one each of those who believe are reborn in. What he did for himself he can also do for each of us and Enoch could only look forward to our times.

 

[&Abel]

Your argument seems to be that only the death of God can grant humans access to the Spirit of God and therefore Jesus must be God since scripture states man has access to the Spirit after Jesus died on the cross. The situation though is that there is no scriptural support for the idea that only the death of God can grant humans access to the Spirit of God. On the other hand we are told that a Jesus did not sin and thus was a sacrifice without fault and thus pleasing to God.



You misunderstand scripture since those who are reborn also have a new spirit created like God in true holiness and righteousness and yet they are neither Jesus nor God. Each person belonging to the true church, including God, has their own spirit but those spirits are united by the spirit of holiness that flows between them. It is through that spirit that Jesus lives in each of those that believe and God lives in Jesus.



As scripture states “The wages of sin is death” and Jesus did not sin so death could not keep hold of him since he did not earn those wages.



Scripture states “Enoch walked with God” but that does not necessary mean he did not sin since we know others that walked with God did sin. I will confidently say he did sin since he was not reborn in spirit and you cannot stop sinning by human effort. Jesus was born the first time with the spirit in the image of the one each of those who believe are reborn in. What he did for himself he can also do for each of us and Enoch could only look forward to our times.

the spirit of god was very limited before jesus(and those who had it had it in abundance)...the gift is a combination of that spirit and our dept paid for sin

the spirit has been distributed on a massive scale through jesus' work on the cross