God The Father Exists

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]sure, first 3 passages are Isaiah[/size]

6"Thus says the LORD, the (K)King of Israel and his (L)Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
'I am the (M)first and I am the last,
And there is no God (N)besides Me.
7'Who is like Me? (O)Let him proclaim and declare it;
Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,
From the time that I established the ancient nation.
And let them declare to them the things that are coming
And the events that are going to take place.
8'Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
(P)Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
And (Q)you are My witnesses
Is there any God (R)besides Me,
Or is there any other (S)Rock?
I know of none.'"

12"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
(W)I am He, (X)I am the first, I am also the last.
13"Surely My hand (Y)founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I (Z)call to them, they stand together.
14"(AA)Assemble, all of you, and listen!
(AB)Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will (AC)carry out His good pleasure on (AD)Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15"I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have (AE)called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16"(AF)Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have (AG)not spoken in secret,
(AH)From the time it took place, I was there
And now (AI)the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit."


Calling forth the generations from the beginning? '(L)I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last (M)I am He.'"

Revelation 1

9(AD)I, John, your (AE)brother and (AF)fellow partaker in the tribulation and (AG)kingdom and (AH)perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos (AI)because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10I was [a](AJ)in the Spirit on (AK)the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice (AL)like the sound of a trumpet,
11saying, "(AM)Write in a book what you see, and send it to the (AN)seven churches: to (AO)Ephesus and to (AP)Smyrna and to (AQ)Pergamum and to (AR)Thyatira and to (AS)Sardis and to (AT)Philadelphia and to (AU)Laodicea."
12Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw (AV)seven golden lampstands;
13and (AW)in the middle of the lampstands I saw one (AX)like a son of man, (AY)clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and (AZ)girded across His chest with a golden sash.
14His head and His (BA)hair were white like white wool, like snow; and (BB)His eyes were like a flame of fire.
15His (BC)feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His (BD)voice was like the sound of many waters.
16In His right hand He held (BE)seven stars, and out of His mouth came a (BF)sharp two-edged sword; and His (BG)face was like (BH)the sun shining in its strength.
17When I saw Him, I (BI)fell at His feet like a dead man And He (BJ)placed His right hand on me, saying, "(BK)Do not be afraid; (BL)I am the first and the last,
18and the (BM)living One; and I (BN)was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have (BO)the keys of death and of Hades.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.​

 

[&Abel]

thx!

 

[2ducklow]

oopsy daisy

 

[2ducklow]

Mr. White evades no issue whatsoever. This can be found out by reading the first 4 paragraphs to find out exactly what he does say, which is no evasion whatsoever:

3 beings within one being is not a contradiction, 3 beings are one being is the contradiciton of t rinity, they even tried uncusseffully to put it in 1 john 5.7, "these 3 are one.." 3 rocks in a sac, 3 cars in a garage , 3 women in a beauty salon, 3 men in a car, 3 gods in one big god , are not contradictions. 3 gods or 3 beings, or 3 persons are one god, is a contradiction. 3 rocks are a sack is a contradiction, 3 women are a beauty salon is a contradiction, 3 men are a car, is a contradiction, 3 gods are one god,is a contradiction, 3 persons of God are one god is a contradiciton. I'm surprised you don't know this very very basic fact.

James white didn't even correctly state the contradiction of trinity which everyone knows what it is, namely 3 beings are one being. He evaded it.

You, on the other have done a fine butcher job on the context of what he does say in regards to ... , which is a fine statement of fact, yes it would be contradiction. But you have misprepresented what he has said ( there is one eternal being of God)to push your agenda.

For those interested in the facts and not mischaracterizations: http://vintage.aomin.org/trinitydef.html

Ok here is the quote.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"It is necessary here to distinguish between the terms "being" and "person." It would be a contradiction, obviously, to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person. So what is the difference? We clearly recognize the difference between being and person every day. We recognize what something is, yet we also recognize individuals within a classification. For example, we speak of the "being" of man---human being. A rock has "being"---the being of a rock, as does a cat, a dog, etc. Yet, we also know that there are personal attributes as well. That is, we recognize both "what" and "who" when we talk about a person.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Bible tells us there are three classifications of personal beings---God, man, and angels. What is personality? The ability to have emotion, will, to express oneself. Rocks cannot speak. Cats cannot think of themselves over against others, and, say, work for the common good of "cat kind." Hence, we are saying that there is one eternal, infinite being of God, shared fully and completely by three persons, Father, Son and Spirit. One what, three who's."[/FONT]

red
beings are different than persons.

blue,

a rock and a cat are beings they are just what''s. But he is wrong, because persons are also beings, a being isn't just a stupid rock, or a stupid cat,, it's anything that exists, so he needs to get a dictionary big time. he is going about it backwards here. it's being, then subdivision is personal being, or non personal being. what he is doing is backwards, he is saying being = rock personal being = person, like you can't just say that a person is a being, I'm a person and a being. person is just more precise, James in effect is saying a person isn't a being he/she is a personal being. so he goes personal being, subdivide into beings, and personalities. That's really wierd that an educated man like James is could say that. I think James explanation is so convoluted that he just kind of didn't know what he was saying in trying to explain away the contradiction of trinity. I' ve seen lots of people do this trying to explain the contradiction of trinity. It's an insurmountable problem to explain how 3 beings are one being. it can't be done.

purple

a person, (which he says are god, man and angels) is a what and a who being, not just a what being like a rock.




brown,
.
contradiction time,
here he says god is one being shared by 3 persons (previously he said a person is god,,man or angels and they are what and whos, now he just says they are whos, by saying they are just who's he is saying they are just personalities, not beings, ). He now says God is one what, which he previously said was just a cat or rock like being, Also previously he said God was a personal being , a what and a who. nother contradiction.

So I didn't misrepresent him, i Just represented some of what he said, and not the parts where he contradicted himself. Although, it is really hard to make heads or tails out of anything said by him in that it is so convoluted but if you stick with it you can begin to descipher it and see it for its total nonsensicality, and contradictiveness. my color coding should help in that regard.

 

[2ducklow]

Anyone care to show me where the being of God is openly displayed as only one person (such as the Father) in the Old Testament?

no scripture says god the father is a person, yet you say he is a person so why do you want us to have scripture saying god the father is only one person before you will believe it when you don't need scripture saying he is a person to believe he is a person? double standard?

this verse in the OT does say that god is a father.

Psalms 68:5 A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.

as far as I know however, no OT scripture uses the NT term , God the Father, if that is what you are looking for.

If you can't find one, why is there a theological presupposition already made that the being of God can only be made up of one person named the Father if the scriptures say nothing on the matter?

John 17:1 These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the son may glorify thee:


John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.


these 2 scriptures, john, 17.3 and 1 cor. 8.6 emphatically and verty clearly state that God the Father is the one and only true God. I know of no scripture that says God the Father is a person. In fact I'm quite sure there are none. but that would cut both ways in that you call god the father a PERSON of god, which no scripture says, yet you have no trouble beliving that, yet why can't you believe God the father is the one and only true god when scripture clearly and unequivacally says he is?

 

[hybrid]

these 2 scriptures, john, 17.3 and 1 cor. 8.6 emphatically and verty clearly state that God the Father is the one and only true God. I know of no scripture that says God the Father is a person. In fact I'm quite sure there are none. but that would cut both ways in that you call god the father a PERSON of god, which no scripture says, yet you have no trouble beliving that, yet why can't you believe God the father is the one and only true god when scripture clearly and unequivacally says he is?

we do believe. no problem.
the scripture did not say "one true absolute stand alone god. "
by the very word father it is very "unequivocal" that HE begotten a son.
your insistence that the fatherhood of god is a mere figure of speech is the cause of your own misunderstanding.

 

[hybrid]

2dl,
tell me if the fatherhood of god just a metaphor or not?
before jesus, was god a father or not?
before creation , was god a father or not?
before all things therefore, did god existed as a father or not?
if yes, to whom he was a father?
if not, how do you explain his eternal fatherhood?

 

[2ducklow]

we do believe. no problem.
the scripture did not say "one true absolute stand alone god. "

one and only true god = one true absolute stand alone god.

by the very word father it is very "unequivocal" that HE begotten a son.

Only to trinitarians, and most christians because they believe Jesus is God. god is the father of Jesus because he created a new human male seed that he used to fertilize Mary's egg with thus making God the Father the beggater of Jesus and Mary the conceiver of Jesus, as scripture says. Nothing unequivalcal about that.

your insistence that the fatherhood of god is a mere figure of speech is the cause of your own misunderstanding.

I never said God is the Father of Jesus figuratively. I suppose the ot scripture I quoted would be taken correctly as being figurative. God is the Father of the Fatherless, I have experienced that myself. He takes over some of the role our earthly fathers have when our fathers die or are gone. At least that's how i understand the verse. and my experience backs up that interpretation.

 

[2ducklow]

2dl,
tell me if the fatherhood of god just a metaphor or not?
before jesus, was god a father or not?

He is called the father of Adam in the OT. but I suppose that should be taken figuratively in that God is his father in the sense that he created him. not in the sense that he begat Adam, which would be the literal sense of fatherhood. Only Jesus is the literal begotten son of God.
I don't know off hand if any scripture uses the fatherhood of god as a metaphor. I can think of a scripture where a human father is used as a metaphor for our heavenly father, but not the other way around.

before creation , was god a father or not?

Not in the sense of the one who begats an offspring. I don't know off hand if God is refered to the father of anyone, that would have to be angels i suppose,prior to creation.

before all things therefore, does the father exists or not?

well he existed before all things were created if that is what you mean. If you are trying to say that he exists now in times past, well i don't believe that.

if yes, to whom he is a father?

god is only literally the father of Jesus in the sense of begatting. all other cases would be figurative.

if not, how do you explain his eternal fatherhood?

the bible doesn't say god the father has eternal fatherhood, that's something from some church council , council of nicea I believe. God isn't eternally begatting as chuch councils say, that idea is nonsensical to the max and no scripture says any such nonsensical thing as eternally begatting, or eternal fatherhood. I believe you are confusing church council pronouncements with scripture.

 

[hybrid]

god is the father of Jesus because he created a new human male seed

I never said God is the Father of Jesus figuratively

yes you did.

 

[hybrid]

so it is clear to me that you believed the fatherhood of god started only before creation.
so when the scripture said god the father as one true god, it was referring to the real god that was once not a father. right?

so before god was not a father, what is he according to scriptures?
light? love? spirit?

 

[2ducklow]

yes you did.

of course you aren't going to quote me having said that. just make the false accusation without any facts to back it up. I never said Jesus was the figurative son of god. you just made it upl.

Jesus is the literal son of God, not the figurative son of god. god the father created a new male seed that he used to fertilize Mary's egg with thus begatting Jesus. and Mary conceived Jesus in that her egg was fertilized. thats biology 101.

 

[2ducklow]

so it is clear to me that the fatherhood of god started only before creation.
so when the scripture said god the father as one true god, it was referring to the real god that was once not a father. fight?

so before god was not a father, what is he according to scriptures?
light? love? spirit?

I assume you mean before god was a father what was he. He was and is YHWH.

 

[hybrid]

He was and is YHWH.

which means?

 

[2ducklow]

which means?

he is and was YHWH means God the Father is and was YHWH. But I know what you want. You are saying that god the father isn't god the father unless he is eternally having kids, correct? well I say God the Father is god the father because he had sons. he was not a father until he had his first son. When God the Father became a father figuratively i do not know but he only literally became a father with the begatting of Jesus. And he is not called, YHWH is not called God the Father, until the NT or until Jesus. you want to argue that God the father has to eternally be begatting kids or he isn't god the Father, or something like that correct? I find no validity in that line of thinking. apparently you do.

what would eternall begatting be anyway? Jesus forming eternally over and over and over and over and over for all eternity past and present and future into a two cell fetus? that is ridiculous.

 

[hybrid]

he is and was YHWH means God the Father is and was YHWH.

that's circular reasoning. it does not answer what the 4 letters YHWH means.
you have already stated that god was YHWH before he became a father.

what i am pointing at is that the fatherhood of god is inseparable to the sonship of jesus christ being the firstborn and all that. the fatherhood cannot exists without the sonship.. as far as their unique relationship is concern, god became a father simultaneously that jesus became a son. is it not?

so the key is to find out what YHWH means since you assumed that this state of existence is prior than the fatherhood of god and prior to sonship of the son.

fortunately. the OT translators have explained the meaning of YHWH for us. it means I am that I am. is it not? not much of an explanation for moses to understand who god was, but later in scriptures god's (YHWH) nature was slowly revealed.

so when YHWH became a father, all we have to do is to compare according to scriptures if there is a common nature that god the father shares with his son jesuschrsit.if there are existing scripture that proved that the father's nature was in the son, then the sonship cannot be figuratively interpreted but the meaning is literal.

your whole doctrine was based on the priori assumption that the father son relationship was only figuratively. so when you see scriptures that speaks about the common nature of the two like both are light, spirit, life, etc.. you interpreted it according to your assumption, that jesus as light is a figure of speech only and not the same light that the father would have been light., spirit or life for that matter.

me on the other hand, think of the father and son as having the same common nature or essence. not since essence are qualitative and not quantifiable, their essence could simply mean ONE. and yet having the same essence, there are obvious distinctions. thus the formula 3 in 1. (same principle can be applied to HS)

 

[Kerwin]

2ducklow,

Since it is clear the tenet that Jesus is God is an irrational tenet then those that choose to hold to it are by definition irrational at least when it comes to what they consider a mystic(beyond understanding) belief. To try any rational argument with them on it beyond pointing out their belief is irrational is an exercise if fruitlessness and serves not to advance your message. It is common sense that the Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son and yet those who believe Jesus is God choose to believe to believe otherwise. I wish they would repent since their beliefs destroys the true faith in the power of God to completely overcome one’s sins but they choose what they choose and will be held accountable for doing so. Perhaps you would do better to discuss other aspects of the gospel with them and others and leave this point up to God.

 

[hybrid]

Since it is clear the tenet that Jesus is God is an irrational tenet then those that choose to hold to it are by definition irrational at least when it comes to what they consider a mystic(beyond understanding) belief.

which part of my post you found irrational? i beg to disagree.
i think trinity was well thought of and arrived with methodology.
what you don't understand doesn't make it irrational.

I wish they would repent since their beliefs destroys the true faith in the power of God to completely overcome one’s sins .

can you rationalize?
can you explain why belief in trinity destroys faith and god's redeeming power over sin?

but they choose what they choose and will be held accountable for doing so

so you believed all trinitarians are damned?
i like it when you talked dirty. hehe

 

[Kerwin]

which part of my post you found irrational? i beg to disagree.
i think trinity was well thought of and arrived with methodology.
what you don't understand doesn't make it irrational.

I pointed out one way it was irrational in that God cannot be his own Father just like you are not your own father. 2Ducklow pointed out another way in as a person cannot be one person at the same time they are three different persons.

can you rationalize?
can you explain why belief in trinity destroys faith and god's redeeming power over sin?

In order to receive God’s promise of the Spirit of Righteousness you must believe it is possible and thus you must believe that Jesus was tempted by evil in just as you are but overcame by his faith in the one true God and as he did it for himself he can do it for you. You cannot believe that if you believe Jesus is God since Jesus cannot even be tempted by sin.

• God promises in Matthew 5:6 that through faith in His Son those that hunger and thirst for righteousness will completely overcome their sins.
• He is willing to because He wants us each to come to know Him and be saved.
• He has the power to fulfill that promise because He can do anything.
• Jesus is an example to us that God did fulfill that promise and thus he is the firstborn of a new creation.
• We can do the same if we by faith receive and live by the Holy Spirit according to Galatians 5:16

so you believed all Trinitarians are damned?

I cannot go that far because I do not have the power to judge your heart. In addition we are discussing one tenet and that is not the whole gospel. If you reject the whole gospel then there is always the possibility you are incapable of understanding it at this time, though you may comprehend it at a later date.

 

[hybrid]

oh, well i can see that you also carry around like a portfolio your own trinitarian understanding together with a scripted attacked on it.

lIn order to receive God’s promise of the Spirit of Righteousness you must believe it is possible and thus you must believe that Jesus was tempted by evil in just as you are but overcame by his faith in the one true God and as he did it for himself he can do it for you. You cannot believe that if you believe Jesus is God since Jesus cannot even be tempted by sin.

i can't really blame you if you missed the trinitarian concept by a mile.
here's a pearl for you ... so don't waste it.
God is jesus, not Jesus is god.
go figure but don't rush it. it will take a while but you'll get it. hehe