God The Father Exists

[2ducklow]

If God the Father exists then the other 2 persons of God exist, and you have 3 existances which is 3 beings.

1. If God exists and God the Father exists, then trinity is teaching that 3 beings are one being.

2. If God the FAther does not exist, as James White maintains in his 3who 1 what trinity explanation, then you got 3 non beings (James calles God the father a personal attribute of God and not a being) making up one being.

3. If god the father doesn't exist and god doesn't exist, then trinity teaches that 3 non beings make up one non being.

4. If God the Father doesn't exist but God exists, then trinity teaches that god is made up of nothing.

the only options are A + B + C doesn't exist = D doesn't exist.
or more cucinctly, the only options there are are,

A + B + C exists = D exists.

or
A + B + C does exist = D doesnt exist.

or

A + B + C doesn't exist = D does exist.

and

A + B + C doesn't exist = D doesn't exist.

So if trinity teaches 1. then you got polythiesm masquerading as monothiesm or more correctly trinity is a contradiction, as even James white admits. Not that he admits that trinity is a contradiction but that he admits that 3 beings are one being is a contradiction, and therefore cannot be true.

If trinity teaches 2. then you got god the father whom the bible says is the one and only true god, not existing. Plus God the son doesn't exist plus the holy spirit doesn't exist. and you have a nonsensical doctrine whereby a being is made up of nothing.

If trinity teaches 3, then that means trinity is athiesm.

If trinity teaches 4, then trinity is nonsensical becaue it would teach that god is made up of nothing.


this is why trinitarians cannot say if God the Father exists or is a being.

 

[LogosRhema]

Trinity = Atheism

Excuse while I walk away and laugh.

The Bible, in context, is clear about the reference of God the Father (Yahweh), the Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit (Spirit). If you read throughout the Bible, in context, you learn each of their roles.

God the Father, creator and author.
OT God's Spirit came upon men, Samson, Isaiah, etc. Do you suppose God's entire being came into these men? If so, how could it be the same if Abraham couldn't even look upon His face? The Spirit is clearly another form of the same God. Being a much lesser being with limitations of the Earthly brain I don't believe many could understand this.
Read John
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[b]
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Then God's Spirit after Christ could be poured into us and resides in us, as we are now God's Temples.

The Three are not separate, but play specific roles in the bigger picture. Essentially being a being that can be anywhere at the same time, can't you then assume His divine purpose has certain roles and plans involved? Do you believe He can only fulfill one plan at a time? I assume being as amazing as He is, He has made plans and He is fulfilling them all at once.

These roles can be summed in a trinity.

God the Father: creator, leader, judge, master, Yahweh.

God the Son: forgiveness, intercessory prayer, grace, The Word, Jesus.

God the Holy Spirit: God with us, God in us, God through us, the Enabler of our Faith... Holy Ghost

 

[2ducklow]

Trinity = Atheism

Excuse while I walk away and laugh.

The Bible, in context, is clear about the reference of God the Father (Yahweh), the Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit (Spirit). If you read throughout the Bible, in context, you learn each of their roles.

God the Father, creator and author.
OT God's Spirit came upon men, Samson, Isaiah, etc. Do you suppose God's entire being came into these men? If so, how could it be the same if Abraham couldn't even look upon His face? The Spirit is clearly another form of the same God. Being a much lesser being

So you are claiming that god the holy spirit is a being, and therefore that the other two persons of God are likewise beings, you are also claiming that God is a being, so your saying in effect that 3 beings are one being, which is a contradiction. I'm surprised that you admited that God the holy spirit is a being and that god is a being. see below where I highlighted in bold your claim that the 3 are a being.

that makes your beliefs a contradiction, 3 beings are one being, and James white in his 3 whos and one what explanations says that is a contradiction.


all the rest of your trnity explanation is irrelevant to the point that you chose the option of trinity teaching 3 beings are one being. I would say probably you're not experienced enough yet to know that as a trinitarian you have to totally evade saying whether God the Father is a being or not. You stated too clearly that a person of God is a being and god is a being.

with limitations of the Earthly brain I don't believe many could understand this.
Read John
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[b]
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Then God's Spirit after Christ could be poured into us and resides in us, as we are now God's Temples.

The Three are not separate, but play specific roles in the bigger picture. Essentially being a being that can be anywhere at the same time, can't you then assume His divine purpose has certain roles and plans involved? Do you believe He can only fulfill one plan at a time? I assume being as amazing as He is, He has made plans and He is fulfilling them all at once.

These roles can be summed in a trinity.

God the Father: creator, leader, judge, master, Yahweh.

God the Son: forgiveness, intercessory prayer, grace, The Word, Jesus.

God the Holy Spirit: God with us, God in us, God through us, the Enabler of our Faith... Holy Ghost

 

[LogosRhema]

So you are claiming that god the holy spirit is a being, and therefore that the other two persons of God are likewise beings, you are also claiming that God is a being, so your saying in effect that 3 beings are one being, which is a contradiction. I'm surprised that you admited that God the holy spirit is a being and that god is a being. see below where I highlighted in bold your claim that the 3 are a being.

that makes your beliefs a contradiction, 3 beings are one being, and James white in his 3 whos and one what explanations says that is a contradiction.


all the rest of your trnity explanation is irrelevant to the point that you chose the option of trinity teaching 3 beings are one being. I would say probably you're not experienced enough yet to know that as a trinitarian you have to totally evade saying whether God the Father is a being or not. You stated too clearly that a person of God is a being and god is a being.

Can a human, being limited to what we have now and who we are and what we do, ever fully understand an immortal being? I don't see how it can be a contradiction seeing as how He can be 10000000000000 places at onces. The trinity sums up God's role with man. Its not that complicated. How can your mom be: mom, sister, and friend all at the same time? Those are who her roles in her life, but she is still the same person within those three simple roles I explained.

If we mimic God, how much more can He do seeing as He is the one that created us?

 

[hybrid]

if God the Father exists then the other 2 persons of God exist, and you have 3 existances which is 3 beings.

you logic is good if you know what you are adding. for exampe ...
1 apple + 1 apple + 1 apple = 3 apples

but how would you add if this were the case ?

1 apple + 1 orange + 1 pear = ?

maybe you should dig deeper to the "nature of being" and enhance your metaphysics just a little bit so you would understand how profound a simple word like being can be.

here's for starter ..

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Being

 

[2ducklow]

Can a human, being limited to what we have now and who we are and what we do, ever fully understand an immortal being? I don't see how it can be a contradiction seeing as how He can be 10000000000000 places at onces. The trinity sums up God's role with man. Its not that complicated. How can your mom be: mom, sister, and friend all at the same time? Those are who her roles in her life, but she is still the same person within those three simple roles I explained.

If we mimic God, how much more can He do seeing as He is the one that created us?

this is better. You do not say that God the Father is a being nor do you say he isnt. Which is the point of my thread that as a trinitarian you cannot say if god the Father exists or not. although really you are admiting indirectly that God the Father exists in claiming that 3 beings are one being is no contradiction.


Notice how James evades the issue even in attempting to state that 3 b eings are one being is a contradiction by misstating it.

It would be a contradiction, obviously, to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person.

http://vintage.aomin.org/trinitydef.html

three beings within a being is not a contradiction, everyone knows that. 3 rocks within a sack is not a contradiction, but 3 rocks are a sack is a contradiction. James merely attempts to muddy the water by evading the true contradiction he is refering to here which everyone knows is '3 beings are one being" by misstating it.

Everyone knows that 3 is one is a contradiciton. So the only recourse is to evade it. James does this by misstating the contradiciton, most trinitarians do it by refusinig to say if god the Father is a being or exists. you apparently beleive 3 are one or 3 is one is perfectly logical.
Most people don't.

 

[2ducklow]

you logic is good if you know what you are adding. for exampe ...
1 apple + 1 apple + 1 apple = 3 apples

but how would you add if this were the case ?

1 apple + 1 orange + 1 pear = ?

you can't.

maybe you should dig deeper to the "nature of being" and enhance your metaphysics just a little bit so you would understand how profound a simple word like being can be.

here's for starter ..

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Being

You have just proved the point of my thread. Which is that as a trinitarian you cannot say if god the Father exists. read your post you won't admit he exists and you won't deny he exists.

 

[hybrid]

see? you can't add it up and yet it's a real case scenario.
the problem with your argument is you arbitrarily put your own value and meaning to every premise you make to arrive to your "per-desired" conclusion.

from the link i provided it can be argued that "being" as existence can be something non-personal and universal so that the distinction and the multiplicity of persons with in it were not necessarily separate and therefore can be construed as one being.

this is of course a 180 degree departure from your understanding of being as an absolute individual.
that's okay. although i think its wrong. its like making god into your own image. imo
you can believed what ever you want but at least make a decent representation of what you dislike.

the father exists whatever we think of him. so its not really up for a debate.

 

[LogosRhema]

this is better. You do not say that God the Father is a being nor do you say he isnt. Which is the point of my thread that as a trinitarian you cannot say if god the Father exists or not. although really you are admiting indirectly that God the Father exists in claiming that 3 beings are one being is no contradiction.


Notice how James evades the issue even in attempting to state that 3 b eings are one being is a contradiction by misstating it.



http://vintage.aomin.org/trinitydef.html

three beings within a being is not a contradiction, everyone knows that. 3 rocks within a sack is not a contradiction, but 3 rocks are a sack is a contradiction. James merely attempts to muddy the water by evading the true contradiction he is refering to here which everyone knows is '3 beings are one being" by misstating it.

Everyone knows that 3 is one is a contradiciton. So the only recourse is to evade it. James does this by misstating the contradiciton, most trinitarians do it by refusinig to say if god the Father is a being or exists. you apparently beleive 3 are one or 3 is one is perfectly logical.
Most people don't.

Based on what I've said, God the Father exists.

*Waits for rebuttal*

 

[&Abel]

I found something interesting today...jesus stating that he created everything with his own hands

12"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
(W)I am He, (X)I am the first, I am also the last.
13"Surely My hand (Y)founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I (Z)call to them, they stand together.
14"(AA)Assemble, all of you, and listen!
(AB)Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will (AC)carry out His good pleasure on (AD)Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15"I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have (AE)called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16"(AF)Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have (AG)not spoken in secret,
(AH)From the time it took place, I was there
And now (AI)the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit."

could it be that jesus was with the father cause he is the father...could it be that the father is actually the holy spirit and we now are able to see him as he actually is without the barrier between sin and the father?

I'm not sure but its all very interesting

 

[&Abel]

is jesus and the holy spirit within us simply different access points to the same god?

 

[2ducklow]

see? you can't add it up and yet it's a real case scenario.

yea you can add them up but you have to call them something they all are for example fruits. one apple one organd one bananna are 3 fruits. not 3 banannas. you can't add one car and one house, unless you call them something they both are say things. then you get 2 things. but i don't see how this has anything to do with anything really. if you are arguing that you can't add up the 3 persons each of which is god unless you call them something they all are , say god, then you are arguing that they are 3 gods. cause if you add up 3 gods you get 3 gods not one god. or are you arguing that adding 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 is putting god in my own image and adding 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 is not putting god in my image? apparently you are.

the problem with your argument is you arbitrarily put your own value and meaning to every premise you make to arrive to your "per-desired" conclusion.

from the link i provided it can be argued that "being" as existence can be something non-personal and universal so that the distinction and the multiplicity of persons with in it were not necessarily separate and therefore can be construed as one being.

I have no idea what that means. I 'm gonna have to try and descipher it..

this is of course a 180 degree departure from your understanding of being as an absolute individual.
that's okay. although i think its wrong. its like making god into your own image. imo

So i have made god in my image if I say he is an absolute individual.
I don't see how you get that at all. If I say God is just an individual and not absolute have I made him in my image as well? If i say god is absolute have I made him in my image? If I say god is absolute individual and you say no he is not an absolute individual, how does that mean I have made god in my image and you havent? Because I believe in saying things that make sense and you don't does that mean i have made god in my image and you haven't? is that what you mean? That's what it appears to me that you are saying.

you can believed what ever you want but at least make a decent representation of what you dislike.

And I haven't made a decent representation of trinity because I say God the father exists and if God exists then trinity teaches that 3 beings are one being is what you are saying. to decently represent trinity I should say that God the father is only partialy an individual and that he with the 2 other partial individuals are one being namely god. I should have listed that as an option is what you are saying correct? WEll I don't consider saying God the father is a partial individual as an option, it is nonsense to me. And i don't list all the numerous nonsensical options that there are for they are too numerous to list.

the father exists whatever we think of him. so its not really up for a debate.

Well now you say he exists, previously your statements implied that he only partially exists. you know the bit about absoulte individual.


God is not an absolute individual? what is an unabsolute individual? A partial individual? so you are saying then that god the father is only partially an individual. or that he is only partly an individual or 1/3 of an individual. which would mean that a person of god is 1/3 of a being, namely the being of God.. so really here you are saying by implication that God the father is only 1/3 of a being. and that I am making god in my image cause I say god the father is a whole individual and you are not making god in your image cause you say he is 1/3 of a being. That's what it amounts to.


being is nonpersonal and universal? what does that mean? Apparently you are either saying that God the father is non personal and universal or God is nonpersonal and universal. which is it?

the distinction and multiplicity of persons within a being ( presumably a nonpersonal and universal being) are not seperate and therefore the 3 beings can be construed as one being? what does that mean? let me boil that one down some. persons within a being can be construed as one being. So that means that you are saying that 3 beings within a being are a being. which means you are saying that the 3 persons of god are within God and are God. you are saying then that the 3 persons are in God and are god. in other words you are saying 3 beings are in one being, and are one being.. And I am making God in my image cause I say God is God the father a being, and you are not making god in your image cause you are saying that god the father is a part being within a being that is a being. So if we say anything that makes sense relating to god we are making god in our image correct?

 

[hybrid]

yea you can add them up but you have to call them something they all are for example fruits. one apple one organd one bananna are 3 fruits. not 3 banannas.

they are three variety of the same genre. their common denominator were being fruit.

I have no idea what that means. I 'm gonna have to try and descipher it..

i guessed you haven't bothered to read the link. so what you don't understand is not necessarily wrong. that's the moral.

So i have made god in my image if I say he is an absolute individual.

yes. an absolute individual make sense to you, understandably because we think in terms of being individual. but individuality in reality is actually defined by certain limits and boundaries. as god he has also cosmic/universal and even transcendental (beyond matter and spacetime) attributes like eternality and infiniteness.

when you think about qualities like eternality and infiniteness, all ideas about limits, boundries and conditions are not applicable. and the good thing about the trinity is that while it does not deny the personal aspect of god it incorporates the absolute aspect of god at the same time.

stale monotheism like the one you espouse lacks the philosophical framework for which it could address the mystery of god.

the distinction and multiplicity of persons within a being ( presumably a nonpersonal and universal being) are not seperate and therefore the 3 beings can be construed as one being? what does that mean? let me boil that one down some. persons within a being can be construed as one being. So that means that you are saying that 3 beings within a being are a being. which means you are saying that the 3 persons of god are within God and are God. you are saying then that the 3 persons are in God and are god. in other words you are saying 3 beings are in one being, and are one being.. And I am making God in my image cause I say God is God the father a being, and you are not making god in your image cause you are saying that god the father is a part being within a being that is a being. So if we say anything that makes sense relating to god we are making god in our image correct?

actually if we follow your logic, you don't make sense at all.

for example, the bible teaches that chrsit is in us.
now according to your reasoning, christ is one being that is in me which is also a being.
chrsit is in you, that is one being within a being {you } again
and christ say in abel. so the christ in abel in also counted as one being again.

adopting your favorite equation ...

1 being + 1 being + 1 being = 3 beings.

we have ...

christ in you + christ in me + christ in abel = 3 christs.

of course you will deny this. and from what i read in the other thread your explanation to all this oneness is that this is just a ":figure of speech".

so what the heck is the ontological meaning of what the figurative manner the bible is talking about?

 

[2ducklow]

they are three variety of the same genre. their common denominator were being fruit.

i quessed you haven't bothere to read the thread. so what you don't understand is not necessarily wrong. that's the moral.

And I see you have no desire to expond upon my understanding of what you said which is that God the Father isn't a being he is 1/3 of a being, and he is a being. So I will assume my understanding of what you said is correct. I can see why one would not want to put it in such unequivacal terms.

yes. an absolute individual make sense to you, understandably because we think in terms of being individual. but individuality in reality is actually defined by certain limits and boundaries. as god he has also cosmic/universal and even transcendental (beyond matter and spacetime) attributes like eternality and infiniteness.

when you think about qualities like eternality and infiniteness, all ideas about limits, boundries and conditions are not applicable. and the good thing about the trinity is that while it does not deny the personal aspect of god it incorporates the absolute aspect of god at the same time.

stale monotheism like the one you espouse lacks the philosophical framework for which it could address the mystery of god.

And the monothiesm that you espouse whereby God the Father is 1/3 of God addresses the mystery of God? so in other words God the father has to be some nonsensical thing like 1/3 of a being in order to have the full philosphical rframework you are looking for.

actually if we follow your logic, you don't make sense at all.

for example, the bible teaches that chrsit is in us.
now according to your reasoning, christ is one being that is in me which is also a being.
chrsit is in you, that is one being within a being {you } again
and christ say in abel. so the christ in abel in also counted as one being again.

adopting your favorite equation ...we have ...

christ in you + christ in me + christ in abel = 3 christs.

of course you will deny this. and from what i read in the ither thread your explantion is all of these oneness is "just a :figure of speech".

so what the heck is the ontological meaning of what the figurative manner the bible is talking about?

The bible says that the holy spirit is the spirit of Christ, and that those of us who are baptised in the holy spirit have the spirit in us. I can't explain how Christ is in me and others other than that which the bible says. I could offer some guesses, but that would be all I could do, For me it is sufficient that I know him and his Father personally. How they do it will be revealed to me some day, and it will be an explanation that makes sense not one that does not make sense. your explanation that god the father is 1/3 of a being, (that seems to me to be what you are saying and you haven't tried to explain how it isn't so I assume that's what you are saying) is a nonsensical explanation. If it were scripture you would have a case, but since it is your explanation that makes no sense you don't have a case.

 

[hybrid]

there are enough people here who cited proof scripture for trinity.
im more interested in the ontological meaning of the trinitarian concept.

isn't that exciting when all is revealed? we can compare notes as to whose idea of god is much closer to the real one?

your logic and reasoning is the one making parts with god. so if the spirit of christ is in us? how many spirit are there?

let me rephrase the equation according to your reasoning based on the assumption that person = being.

1/3 spirit in 2dl + 1/3 spirit in hybrid + 1/3 spirit in abel = 1 spirit.

 

[2ducklow]

there are enough people here who cited proof scripture for trinity.
im more interested in the ontological meaning of the trinitarian concept.

isn't that exciting when all is revealed? we can compare notes as to whose idea of god is much closer to the real one?

your logic and reasoning is the one making parts with god.

no it is what your explanation amounts to. you haven't refuted it. even now you are not affirming or denying it. leave it murky that way no one can pin you down right? you won't explain what ""multiplicity of persons within a being " means. to me it means god the father is one of 3 persons in god, you refuse to clarify, cause you got to leave it murky.
you talk about non being persons, but refuse to say if you mean god the father, god or who. again leave it murky so you appear to have an explanation but have none. you talk about the multiplicity of persons within a being being a being. i say this means you are saying several persons who are non beings are a being, you refuse to clairify it. cause you gotta leave it murky otherwise the nonsensicalness of your doctrine will be exposed.

so if the spirit of christ is in us? how many spirit are there?

a spirit that is omnipresent can be in me and you at the same time and only be one spirit.

let me rephrase the equation according to your reasoning based on the assumption that person = being.

it's not my reasoning it is what a person is a person is a being. look up person in the dictionary.

1/3 spirit in 2dl + 1/3 spirit in hybrid + 1/3 spirit in abel = 1 spirit.

god the father is the one and only true God, he exists, there is no other god but him. you even admit he exists, although apparently you consider his existance to be 1/3 of an existance which is nonsense to me. I'm though, you refuse to clarify yyour nonsensiclal statments . you jsut ignore them . bye bye.

 

[hybrid]

hahaha.

my point is both our equations are ridiculous when applied to the oneness of god.
again just because it doesn't make sense to you means it doesn't make sense to everyone else.
believe me, when it comes to spiritual matters, the mind is overrated.
the secret to make sense of it is not to treat a "non-material thing like god/spirit" in mathematical terms which obviously is a physical concept..
does it make sense?

 

[gort]

this is better. You do not say that God the Father is a being nor do you say he isnt. Which is the point of my thread that as a trinitarian you cannot say if god the Father exists or not. although really you are admiting indirectly that God the Father exists in claiming that 3 beings are one being is no contradiction.


Notice how James evades the issue even in attempting to state that 3 b eings are one being is a contradiction by misstating it.



http://vintage.aomin.org/trinitydef.html

three beings within a being is not a contradiction, everyone knows that. 3 rocks within a sack is not a contradiction, but 3 rocks are a sack is a contradiction. James merely attempts to muddy the water by evading the true contradiction he is refering to here which everyone knows is '3 beings are one being" by misstating it.

Everyone knows that 3 is one is a contradiciton. So the only recourse is to evade it. James does this by misstating the contradiciton, most trinitarians do it by refusinig to say if god the Father is a being or exists. you apparently beleive 3 are one or 3 is one is perfectly logical.
Most people don't.

Mr. White evades no issue whatsoever. This can be found out by reading the first 4 paragraphs to find out exactly what he does say, which is no evasion whatsoever:

We must first remember that very few have a good idea of what the Trinity is in the first place - hence, accuracy in definition will be very important. The doctrine of the Trinity is simply that there is one eternal being of God - indivisible, infinite. This one being of God is shared by three co-equal, co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.

You, on the other have done a fine butcher job on the context of what he does say in regards to ...

It would be a contradiction, obviously, to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person.

, which is a fine statement of fact, yes it would be contradiction. But you have misprepresented what he has said ( there is one eternal being of God)to push your agenda.

For those interested in the facts and not mischaracterizations: http://vintage.aomin.org/trinitydef.html

For me, I know that simplifying the doctrine to its most basic elements has been very important and very useful. When we reduce the discussion to the three clear Biblical teachings that underlie the Trinity, we can move our discussion from the abstract to the concrete Biblical data, and can help those involved in false religions to recognize which of the Biblical teachings it is denying.

James White

 

[gort]

Anyone care to show me where the being of God is openly displayed as only one person (such as the Father) in the Old Testament?

If you can't find one, why is there a theological presupposition already made that the being of God can only be made up of one person named the Father if the scriptures say nothing on the matter?

 

[&Abel]

sure, first 3 passages are Isaiah

6"Thus says the LORD, the (K)King of Israel and his (L)Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
'I am the (M)first and I am the last,
And there is no God (N)besides Me.
7'Who is like Me? (O)Let him proclaim and declare it;
Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,
From the time that I established the ancient nation.
And let them declare to them the things that are coming
And the events that are going to take place.
8'Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
(P)Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
And (Q)you are My witnesses
Is there any God (R)besides Me,
Or is there any other (S)Rock?
I know of none.'"

12"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
(W)I am He, (X)I am the first, I am also the last.
13"Surely My hand (Y)founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I (Z)call to them, they stand together.
14"(AA)Assemble, all of you, and listen!
(AB)Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will (AC)carry out His good pleasure on (AD)Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15"I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have (AE)called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16"(AF)Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have (AG)not spoken in secret,
(AH)From the time it took place, I was there
And now (AI)the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit."


Calling forth the generations from the beginning? '(L)I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last (M)I am He.'"

Revelation 1

9(AD)I, John, your (AE)brother and (AF)fellow partaker in the tribulation and (AG)kingdom and (AH)perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos (AI)because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10I was [a](AJ)in the Spirit on (AK)the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice (AL)like the sound of a trumpet,
11saying, "(AM)Write in a book what you see, and send it to the (AN)seven churches: to (AO)Ephesus and to (AP)Smyrna and to (AQ)Pergamum and to (AR)Thyatira and to (AS)Sardis and to (AT)Philadelphia and to (AU)Laodicea."
12Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw (AV)seven golden lampstands;
13and (AW)in the middle of the lampstands I saw one (AX)like [b]a son of man, (AY)clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and (AZ)girded across His chest with a golden sash.
14His head and His (BA)hair were white like white wool, like snow; and (BB)His eyes were like a flame of fire.
15His (BC)feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His (BD)voice was like the sound of many waters.
16In His right hand He held (BE)seven stars, and out of His mouth came a (BF)sharp two-edged sword; and His (BG)face was like (BH)the sun shining in its strength.
17When I saw Him, I (BI)fell at His feet like a dead man And He (BJ)placed His right hand on me, saying, "(BK)Do not be afraid; (BL)I am the first and the last,
18and the (BM)living One; and I (BN)was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have (BO)the keys of death and of Hades.