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God pre-destined us to fall

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Thanks for the respectful tone, sometimes in short supply in Internet conversations :)


I think limited free will is a good reading of scripture. God absolutely steps in and overrides free will when it suits him. The conclusion then is that our salvation is not god's main priority, he could intervene to save everyone but allows most to go to hell, so clearly our salvation from a hell he didn't even make for us is not important enough in all situations for God to act.


Not sure what you are getting at here. If the evidence is that time is not relative as you say in your post, why would we assume that it is?


Citation needed


An interesting speculation but obviously just a thought experiment and not a proven hypothesis.



This is interesting since you seem to be arguing that God does not have free will. If God can know what each of us will do in any given circumstance but can't change it (contradicted by the exodus story, the witness of the church in acts and a bunch of others) then he doesn't actually have free will. He is just a giant robot.

Wow! I have done a poor job explaining.

I do believe time is relative.

You can google “wormholes” for an explanation, but right now they are just hypothesized and there just may not be a way to test the hypothesis.

God very much has free will, but God cannot change history and where humans are concerned everything is “history” for God.

God has always chosen to do the very best thing throughout history, but that does not make Him a robot since God has the power to choose to do something else, but God’s Love compels God to only do the very best thing and God is Love.

It is not that God’s wisdom is so great that God can “figure out” what man will do, since with your wisdom you could “know” (not figure out) what a person will do if you had the written history of that person handed to you by someone in the future who recorded everything that person did.

Here is the place we need to explore the greatest and I did not address: You said: “…The conclusion then is that our salvation is not god's main priority, he could intervene to save everyone but allows most to go to hell…”

If there is this eternal intelligence it would be at the epitome of the best it could be and not in the process of improvement. It would be the ultimate bad or good but not somewhere in-between. Why be bad when He can be good just as easily? The ultimate “good” would be what is called Godly type Love (to be defined later) and is totally unselfish type Love. Since this God would be able to direct our thinking, why would He have us think of him as being totally bad, when He could make us think bad was good and thus He would be worthy of praise? If God were bad and we praise a “Good God” than we are not praising Him.


Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.


So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes that compels even God to do all He does) and become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).



What keeps the all powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?


There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)


This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).


An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).


This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.


Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.


All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.




Fair enough but this not the picture we get from the Bible. The Bible says god predestined a bunch of stuff which means more than knowledge.

God can certainly “predestine” everything He will be doing and really already did.

God even before deciding to make a being (before time began) could predestine to save all those that will accept His Love, without being individually specific.

Your comment
God can predestine (foreordained) to save all those that believe and know from the beginning who did believe, since “historically” that is what they did
From what I say above Godly type Love requires a free will choice by the individual, so there arte things that are impossible for God to do since they are impossible to do.
My.response
Knowing is not predestination. If there was no chance of them chosen otherwise god wouldn't have to act, ever for any reason. And if God does act in any way at any timez then he is in a causal relationship with his creation, and if he is in a causAL relationship then by definition is is not simply foreknowledge.

Explained above.
 
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