• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

God ought to be in our Classrooms

SolomonVII

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2003
23,138
4,919
Vancouver
✟162,516.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/columnists/story.html?id=eec7f9ea-4e2c-4240-8728-bec22c93f11f&p=3


"The wars over religion continue, and not just in Iraq and Afghanistan. Indeed, some of the most important battles are occurring, not in areas famous for sectarian storms, but in the becalmed jurisdictions of Quebec and Massachusetts.
The epicentre of the Massachusetts battle is Harvard University, the esteemed institution that began life as a training ground for Puritan clerics. Though it divested itself of its religious mission years ago, Harvard's Task Force on General Education has now recommended that it resurrect its past.
This panel notes that many domestic and international disputes have religion at their core, and it therefore suggests that all undergraduate students take a course in a category called "Reason and Faith." The committee stresses that the courses are not meant as "religious apologetics," but instead examine "the interplay between religion and various aspects of national and/or international culture and society."
That sounds innocuous enough, but evidently not to some scientists. Famed Harvard psychologist Stephen Pinker responded to the proposal by telling the Harvard Crimson newspaper that "universities are about reason pure and simple," and hence faith "has no place in anything but a religious institution."
Although Pinker's objection seems a little overwrought, his sentiments are understandable given the continuing attempts to introduce religion into biology classes through creationism and intelligent design. And that brings us to Quebec's latest religious war"...continue article here... .PeterMcknight"

The technical excellence of science is unparalleled in our understanding of the world of nature.

Science must by definition limit its inquiry to the natural world, but by definition too the supernatural remains beyond our natural experience.

Nevertheless, it is counterproductive, and unnecessarily limiting, to confine our understanding of reality by defining the whole of our reality to the natural world alone, and by what can be studied by scientific method. It simply does not do justice to the wholeness of our existence to believe that what resides beyond the scope of empirical inquiry is therefore outside of rationality too.

Reason and faith are not mutually exclusive.



There need not be the current schism in our institutions of learning between the world of physics and the world of metaphysics. For the questions being posed are not specific to two different realities, but instead pertain to two different questions, and two different explorations of the oneness of our reality.
The syncretization of these questions, according to Peter Mcknight, lies in philosophy:

"Clearly what we have here, in the responses to both the Harvard and Quebec initiatives, is a failure to understand what science is and isn't, and a reluctance to consider what religion is and isn't, and the relationship between the two. But there is a solution to this problem, and the solution involves teaching, not more science or religion, but more philosophy."


I found the article interest. Well worth the read...:)
 

Sojourner<><

Incoherent Freedom Fighter
Mar 23, 2005
1,606
14
45
✟24,385.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
:thumbsup: good post.

Personally, I feel that the treatment of reason and faith as mutually exclusive pursuits to be lacking in reason. But I'm not so sure that I would like to see a fusion between institutions of faith and institutions of pure reason simply because of the mass chaos that would probably ensue. After all I wouldn't want to receive my theology degree from a university that teaches quantum physics along side of Catholicism, Hinduism and Islam. Instead, I think I would like to see more tolerance for faith and faith based reasoning rather than complete rejection of it.
 
Upvote 0
Aug 21, 2006
1,204
37
✟24,187.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Reason and faith are not mutually exclusive.

Exactly



We should have some relegious classes, in teaching institutions, but as option subjects, I dont see people being forced to study physics at uni, so forcing people to take relegious/semi relegious classes, should not be done
 
Upvote 0

The Nihilist

Contributor
Sep 14, 2006
6,074
490
✟31,289.00
Faith
Atheist
I would absolutely take a sociology course on the interplay between science and religion in the United States.
But I don't think the solution is to teach more philosophy, because that doesn't solve the problem. Then the problem is whether we should teach Thomas Kuhn or John Locke.
What they should actually teach is Nietzsche, and they should start in preschool. That will cure our nation of this religion nonsense within about ten years.
 
Upvote 0

Sojourner<><

Incoherent Freedom Fighter
Mar 23, 2005
1,606
14
45
✟24,385.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What they should actually teach is Nietzsche, and they should start in preschool. That will cure our nation of this religion nonsense within about ten years.

I see you have alot of recovering left to do. It'll be a long road.
 
Upvote 0

michabo

reason, evidence
Nov 11, 2003
11,355
493
50
Vancouver, BC
Visit site
✟14,055.00
Faith
Atheist
Famed Harvard psychologist Stephen Pinker responded to the proposal by telling the Harvard Crimson newspaper that "universities are about reason pure and simple," and hence faith "has no place in anything but a religious institution."

Note that this is a nonsequitur. I don't think that Pinker said this in response to being asked about having a class on how religion affects politics. It is clearly a response to whether or not faith should be in classrooms, not whether or not people should study the effect of faith.

Faith has no place in classrooms. But we are in desperate need of an understanding of the ways in which faith affects politics and societies.

Nevertheless, it is counterproductive, and unnecessarily limiting, to confine our understanding of reality by defining the whole of our reality to the natural world alone, and by what can be studied by scientific method.

No one has ever proposed an alternate means of gaining knowledge. Can you?

People who say this use it as a segue for some special pleading for their own brand of faith. It's disingenuous and self-serving.

Reason and faith are not mutually exclusive.
Yes, they certainly are.
 
Upvote 0

The Nihilist

Contributor
Sep 14, 2006
6,074
490
✟31,289.00
Faith
Atheist
I see you have alot of recovering left to do. It'll be a long road.
Ha! Seriously, though, by recovering, I mean getting over metaphysical nonsense, including, you know, religion, which seems to be the primary cause of most neurosis that exists today. I'd probably feel as guilty about masturbating as a lot of Christians if I thought an invisible man was watching me do it.
 
Upvote 0

SolomonVII

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2003
23,138
4,919
Vancouver
✟162,516.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
RE:
Nevertheless, it is counterproductive, and unnecessarily limiting, to confine our understanding of reality by defining the whole of our reality to the natural world alone, and by what can be studied by scientific method.

No one has ever proposed an alternate means of gaining knowledge. Can you?
Scientific method can produce a computer that makes communication possible over long distances in real time.
It can show us the formation of human life in the most intricate detail.

What scientific knowledge cannot give us is a reason marvel at that human life, or to place a value on communicating with each other in the first place.

As 30 million human American abortions would reveal, the problem of unwanted human life can be dealt with very efficiently, but it is just outside of the scope of science to place a scientific value on a human life in the first place.

Science can show us how, but cannot really tell us what is the point.

Science can answer why there is life on earth, but it can supply no answer on why go through the bother with living?

And as much as the secularist/athiest would love to sweep away the 'devil' of Christianity, what current events are showing us is that there are seven more religious devils from of a myriad of religions more than willing to take its place.
 
Upvote 0

michabo

reason, evidence
Nov 11, 2003
11,355
493
50
Vancouver, BC
Visit site
✟14,055.00
Faith
Atheist
What scientific knowledge cannot give us is a reason marvel at that human life, or to place a value on communicating with each other in the first place.
True enough.

But these are value statements, not knowledge statements. Science is the only means of revealing what is and will be; philosophy deals with what should be.

Theology... Theology doesn't teach us anything about either.

And as much as the secularist/athiest would love to sweep away the 'devil' of Christianity, what current events are showing us is that there are seven more religious devils from of a myriad of religions more than willing to take its place.
The devil is faith in all its guises. Christianity is just the single most powerful force of irrationality in North America and the western world.
 
Upvote 0

SolomonVII

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2003
23,138
4,919
Vancouver
✟162,516.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
Reason and faith are not mutually exclusive
Exactly.
It is no coincidence that modern science was birthed from a Christian culture.


We should have some religious classes, in teaching institutions, but as option subjects, I dont see people being forced to study physics at university, so forcing people to take relegious/semi relegious classes, should not be done.
It is not a question of forcing a faith into education. Rather, it is a case of understanding that the concept of "God" belongs in any intelligent discussion of our human existence. In the realm of values and morality, ultimate purpose and meaning, there exists a burning need to reconnect to wholeness of our humanity.

And we need to do wo without ever thinking that we have to sacrifice our rationality in the process. The article states that even the eggheads of the Vatican can understand that faith and rationality are not in conflict. If this is so for the upper echelons of Catholicism, would it not be doubly true for the upper echelons of Protestantism, which historically broke with Catholicism in pursuit of a faith purer and more rational than what they found in the CVatholicism of their day?

Really, what would be desirable at this point in time would be just to be able to speak the of God in an intellectual discussion without fear of embarrassment or being ridiculed.
 
Upvote 0

michabo

reason, evidence
Nov 11, 2003
11,355
493
50
Vancouver, BC
Visit site
✟14,055.00
Faith
Atheist
And we need to do wo without ever thinking that we have to sacrifice our rationality in the process. The article states that even the eggheads of the Vatican can understand that faith and rationality are not in conflict.
So people who use faith and whose livelihood depends on faith have decreed without any argument or support that faith and evidence are not in conflict... and you immediately believe them? Wow, you're sure not demonstrating the compatibility between faith and rationality.

You do know these "egghead" rationalists only recently acknowledged that Gallileo was right?

Really, what would be desirable at this point in time would be just to be able to speak the of God in an intellectual discussion without fear of embarrassment or being ridiculed.
Faith will never have a place in an intellectual, rational discussion. It is inherently irrational and anti-intellectual. At best you will have a handful of scientists whose minds are disciplined enough to compartmentalize their irrational beliefs so they don't interfere with there professional lives, but even these people are dwindling.


Frankly theists have far too much freedom to peddle their irrationality in public without fear of embarrassment. Even Prez Bush can blither about how God speaks to him. When he gets the same treatment for saying God speaks to him that he would get if he said that aliens speak to him, then the world will finally be in its happy place.
 
Upvote 0
T

Tenka

Guest
Sojourner said:
Instead, I think I would like to see more tolerance for faith and faith based reasoning rather than complete rejection of it.
What is faith based reasoning and what can it offer?
Solomon said:
Science can answer why there is life on earth, but it can supply no answer on why go through the bother with living?
Because while the 'how life' can be tested for and explained the 'why life' produces only arbitrary answers indicating that it is a personal answer that people find for themselves.
It is no coincidence that modern science was birthed from a Christian culture.
What is this supposed to mean?
 
Upvote 0

David Gould

Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.
May 28, 2002
16,931
514
54
Canberra, Australia
Visit site
✟36,618.00
Faith
Atheist
Politics
AU-Labor
Can anyone give us an answer to Michabo's question about what method we can use to examine the universe other than the scientific method?

Let us assume for a moment that there is some metaphysical realm out there somewhere that science cannot investigate. By what method can we investigate that realm?
 
Upvote 0

Sojourner<><

Incoherent Freedom Fighter
Mar 23, 2005
1,606
14
45
✟24,385.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Can anyone give us an answer to Michabo's question about what method we can use to examine the universe other than the scientific method?

Let us assume for a moment that there is some metaphysical realm out there somewhere that science cannot investigate. By what method can we investigate that realm?

Reading works pretty well.
 
Upvote 0

Sojourner<><

Incoherent Freedom Fighter
Mar 23, 2005
1,606
14
45
✟24,385.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Would you care to elaborate? I confess I don't see how this answers the question.

It's quite obvious. How often does a 'normal' person actually use science to investigate anything? If a person wants to know something about science wouldn't he or she need to read about it? Same goes for metaphysics. If you want to know what is 'beyond' you should read about it.
 
Upvote 0

michabo

reason, evidence
Nov 11, 2003
11,355
493
50
Vancouver, BC
Visit site
✟14,055.00
Faith
Atheist
It's quite obvious. How often does a 'normal' person actually use science to investigate anything? If a person wants to know something about science wouldn't he or she need to read about it? Same goes for metaphysics. If you want to know what is 'beyond' you should read about it.
David Gould was asking how a researcher would learn. Or how did the author come to this knowledge?
 
Upvote 0