God ordained sin? [split from Adam/Eve thread in Origins]

[]RiSeN[]

The confusion is your old traditional man made religious dogma (old wine); does not fit the new wine or revelation of the spirit. These scriptures have always been there; it just your to busy defending eternal torture.

Here is one for you.

2 Peter 2:1

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.​

Damnation: Strong’s NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):

KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

Notice what the Greek says the false prophets bring. Do they bring the message that God will save all; do they bring the good news of salvation to the whole earth. No they bring damnations , destruction, perish etc.

If you are set because I am going against the damnable heresies of eternal torture I am; and that includes the Teutonic Pagan word "hell" that too.

See you are seeking religion not the truth....

You cannot have it both ways; either God is a monster who does not have enough will to save all, but has enough will to torture billions for eternity.....

Oh.. more and more I'm starting to believe you are being led by spirit.. just not the kind you think.

I never said anything about eternal damnation or "Hell", but since you bring it up, I don't believe in the false teaching of it since it does not hold the bible as its source.

Well I think I should stop responding to you since you have made no effort to make this an edifying discussion but rather you consistantly accuse me of being unable to contend with your dizzying theories which also do not hold the bible as there source no matter how fervent you are or what a/the spirit told you.

And as for the scriptures that prove we have freewill, here you go;

De 30:19, 20; Jos 24:15

Now after reading those, ask yourself honestly which one is wrong, you or God?

Good day.

 

[Ben12]

Oh.. more and more I'm starting to believe you are being led by spirit.. just not the kind you think.

I never said anything about eternal damnation or "Hell", but since you bring it up, I don't believe in the false teaching of it since it does not hold the bible as its source.

Well I think I should stop responding to you since you have made no effort to make this an edifying discussion but rather you consistantly accuse me of being unable to contend with your dizzying theories which also do not hold the bible as there source no matter how fervent you are or what a/the spirit told you.

And as for the scriptures that prove we have freewill, here you go;

De 30:19, 20; Jos 24:15

Now after reading those, ask yourself honestly which one is wrong, you or God?

Good day.

Your the one who is following heresies of Damnation; talk about evil; if that is not devil base I got a new on for you. Eternal hell and torment sure does not come from God; it would not do such an evil thing; the devil would thought.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

Your freewill scripture is very WEAK; NOTHING freewill scripture has nothing to do with Adam's sin and nothing to do with salvation; pretty weak???? Salvation comes from the blood of Jesus which is in the NT.

So you are going to cut in run because the your doctines cannot stand against the truth; you are right it is going to get a lot HOTTER. Cannot have it BOTH WAYS…………..

 

[]RiSeN[]

Your the one who is following heresies of Damnation; talk about evil; if that is not devil base I got a new on for you. Eternal hell and torment sure does not come from God; it would not do such an evil thing; the devil would thought.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

"Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world." - 1John 4:1

You speak according to your own disposition.

Your freewill scripture is very WEAK; NOTHING freewill scripture has nothing to do with Adam's sin and nothing to do with salvation; pretty weak???? Salvation comes from the blood of Jesus which is in the NT.

Weak? It directly ousts your claim that God has predestined everything since Jehovah Himself says there is a choice put before man.

If man can choose, like Jehovah asks him to in the verses provided, you are wrong in your theories of predestination.

If man cannot choose, like Jehovah asks him to, then Jehovah is a liar and a hypocrite, for telling man he has a choice and the ability to choose.

Oh, and what of salvation? It is a choice aswell. Look at John 3:16-21. "God loved the world", not "the good", not "the saved", "the world", all of mankind.

"Now this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked" - John 3:19

This is the basis for judgment, that although they were as disobedient children, Jehovah sent to all mankind righteous discipline through His Word, Jesus, yet they chose to reject this discipline and continue in their path of rebeliousness.

Jesus says they "loved the darkness". Love cannot exist where there is not the freedom to choose.

The obedience Jesus showed is the perfection of his choice towards God.(Phil 2:8)

So you are going to cut in run because the your doctines cannot stand against the truth; you are right it is going to get a lot HOTTER. Cannot have it BOTH WAYS…………..

Your getting close to not making any sense at all. All anyone has to do is read the thread in its entirety to see who is cutting and running over and over.

 

[Ben12]

Why do you call God, Jehovah. It is just one name of many?

I choose a turkey sandwich over ham; has nothing to do with freewill. Freewill is not a scriptual word in the Bible except for the OT Freewill offering. Do a search; it just not there; except for your religion and many like yours....

Man has no choice; you can't have it both ways; God draws/drags you. No choice in dragging drawing.

Jesus said, "No man can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws (Gk)drag) him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets And they shall all be taught by God.

Everyone that hath learned from the Father cometh unto Me. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray Him. And He said, "Therefore said I unto you, that no one is able to come unto

Me unless it is granted them by the Father." John 6:44,45,64,65.
Salvation is ALL of God. Its first beginning, its final completion, and everything in-between, is ALL the handiwork of God. Down through the centuries, Christendom has tried to take some of the glory for their salvation for themselves by claiming that they "appropriated it." As it relates to God's dealings with man, the word "appropriate" is an abominable word.

You cannot "appropriate" the things of God. They are given, they are given. All of the initiative for salvation is God's. We cannot come to God unless He grants us the ability to come; and then we will not come of ourselves, but we will come according to the measure that He draws us..

Everyone of us is what we are by the grace of God, and by His grace alone. Certainly we will believe; yes, we will yield; yes, we will follow after; certainly, we will give ourselves to the truth; but we can only do these things in the measure that God initiates and energizes His will within us. Jesus said, "I can of my own self do nothing." And so it is with us.
Jesus said, ''I will draw all men unto Me." The Greek word "draw," literally means "drag." The scripture says that our flesh is enmity against our spirit, and that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be. Therefore God calls, draws and apprehends use while our own self-will wears out and dies in the process.

Jesus said to Saul of Tarsus, "Don't you know that it's hard to kick against the pricks?" And when Saul's name was changed to Paul he said, "God separated me from my mother's womb, called me by His grace, and chose to reveal His Son through me." God's drawing of Paul started when he was born, and so it is with us all. John 3:27 says, "A man can receive nothing except it be given him from heaven." And 1 Corinth. 4:7 adds, 'What hast thou that thou didst not receive?"

If God has given you sufficient motivation to choose Christ and His way, why do you glory in yourselves as if you were responsible for the decision? Why do you act as if your motivation to choose was something that was inherent in you? Your choosing of Christ is not your own decision. It is God's decision working in and through you. Glory only in the God Who gave you this faith..Don't glory in yourself for receiving it, you received it only because God decided that it was time to successfully motivate you to receive it.
Isaiah 54:13 promises that we will ALL he taught of God,.and great will be the peace of our children. 1 Corinthians 15:23 says, "For as with, in and by Adam all died; so with, in and by Christ shall all be made alive, but each man in his own order. None of our children will be eternally lost. They are scheduled by God to be taught by Him. God has reserved a specific time schedule for every one of us to be taught by Him. Isaiah 11:9 says, "The earth shall be full of the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea."
We can think we have a knowledge of God's love, but we will never really know it until He reveals to us what He is really like. God's nature is love, and His love will not fail to achieve its desire to receive a loving response from everyone.
Only to the extent that we understand God's love, can we love others. We shall all be taught by God to love one another. Love is the bond of perfection, and the fulfilling of the law. God will teach us how to apply His love. We may know all about God's love, but it will do us no good until God teaches us how to apply it in our relationships with others.
Isaiah 29:13 says, "For as much as this people draw near Me with their mouth, and with
their lips do honor Me, but they have removed their heart far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the precepts of men." When your fear of God is taught only by the precepts of man, you will fulfil Matthew 15:9 which says, "In vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandment's of men. " And 1 Timothy 1:7 adds, "Desiring to be teachers of the law, they understand neither what they say nor whereof they affirm." We need to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ."

Evangelical Babylon confines its people within the circle of a limited concept of God's love, consequently, their
"fear toward God has been taught them by the precepts of man," and they are prevented from learning what our Lord and Saviour is really like. As the Scripture says, "Their bed is too short and their covers are too narrow." In order to grow in their knowledge of God's love, they need to get out of the bed they are trying to sleep in.
O to learn from the Father! Jesus said that everyone who learns of Me, comes. Evangelical Babylon tries to reverse the order. They tell us that if we come, we will be able to learn. But Jesus says, "When the Father teaches you about Me, then you will come." Psalm 40:6 says, "Mine ears Thou hast opened." The Hebrew word "opened" literally means "digged." God has to dig our ears out of all the other voices that prevent us from knowing what He is really like.
John 5:25-28 says that the hour is coming when all who are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they shall live. They who have done evil will come forth unto the resurrection of damnation. The word "damnation" is the Greek word "Krisis"`from which we get our word "crises." A crisis is a turning point. The Chinese word for crises consists of two characters. One means trouble and the other means opportunity. All of God's judgements, including the lake of fire, are positive in nature and are motivated by His love, for He has no other motivation, and they are all correctional processings of God to bring us into righteousness. When evil-doers learn from the correctional instruction of God's judgement, it will cause them to come to the Saviour. First there is the learning, then there is the coming. Every judgement is a part of the process of being taught by God. Every day, all day long we are in the process of being judged by God. Our reaction to every seemingly insignificant happening in our life is judging us before God, and the reaping of what we sow through these reactions is part of the process of God's instruction. They are instructional chastenings and are part of the judgements of God.
Most of Christendom's concept of God's judgement is condemnatory and negative. This concept is an anti-Biblical misconception from beginning to end. All expressions of judgement are the handiwork of God and their end result will be to gird us up unto righteousness. We ought to have the attitude of the Psalmist who said, "I have hoped in Thy judgements."

 

[gluadys]

Well, the conversation has veered quite a way from the original point.

So long as we are speaking of the current situation (post-fall, post-resurrection) re: salvation, there is no final resolution on such questions as free-will/predestination or universal vs. non-universal salvation.

Personally, I hold to predestination and also lean to universal salvation.

However, Ben12's original point was that God ordained the fall itself. Specifically that he changed Adam's nature to drag Adam into sin.

That even the strictest Calvinist would repudiate. Since the fall, it is true, in our fallen nature we are unable to choose the good, unable to choose salvation.

But Adam in his state of innocence was not burdened by bondage to sin and was able to freely choose.

There is one and only one creation of Adam, though it is described twice (Gen 1:26 and Gen. 2:7) The second account is not a description of God changing Adam's nature to guarantee that he would sin.

 

[Ben12]

Well, the conversation has veered quite a way from the original point.

So long as we are speaking of the current situation (post-fall, post-resurrection) re: salvation, there is no final resolution on such questions as free-will/predestination or universal vs. non-universal salvation.

Personally, I hold to predestination and also lean to universal salvation.

However, Ben12's original point was that God ordained the fall itself. Specifically that he changed Adam's nature to drag Adam into sin.

That even the strictest Calvinist would repudiate. Since the fall, it is true, in our fallen nature we are unable to choose the good, unable to choose salvation.

But Adam in his state of innocence was not burdened by bondage to sin and was able to freely choose.

There is one and only one creation of Adam, though it is described twice (Gen 1:26 and Gen. 2:7) The second account is not a description of God changing Adam's nature to guarantee that he would sin.

Don't Whine

Truth is harsh and demand over whelming thought and is especially true of spiritual truth. So what is your point; I mean if you believe in freewill; show me the scripture. If God does not draw/drag or I like the word force people; show where it says in the Bible.

If eternal torture is so important to your sound scriptural doctrine; show me scripture. I love this topic; I got a lot I would love to show you. The whole doctrine of damnation will look like Swiss cheese when I am done; it is so full of religious made bias; false translation; and I will used God’s Word to prove it.

I worship a savior not a monster one if I believed like you could be compared to Hitler, Stalin and Mao; they only killed millions. You claim our Lord who told the women at the well; go and sin no more is going to torture billions for eternity. that is not the Jesus i know.
We discuss Adam’s fall and we disagree; I would be glad to on continue you on the conversation; I brought it up.

I am sure you love to condemn heretics like me in your local social club you call the church; but this is a open Forum; this is where truth will be shaken to its core. In the end the truth will be revealed if you can handle it.

 

[gluadys]

Don't Whine

Not whining. Just stating my position.

So what is your point; I mean if you believe in freewill; show me the scripture. If God does not draw/drag or I like the word force people; show where it says in the Bible. [/FONT]

You haven't been reading me very well, and I expect you have never read Calvin.

When it comes to salvation, I DON'T believe in free will. I agree with every scripture you have posted to the effect that salvation is given by God's sovereign grace. I agree that God's grace and calling are irresistable.

But as for scripture, you have not shown one single verse that speaks of God's drawing the elect to him that is not speaking of those who are ALREADY sinners.

Sinners have no free will in respect to salvation. They cannot choose to save themselves, they can do nothing to bring about their salvation, nor anything to thwart God's will to save them.

But in the garden Adam was not a sinner. Until you can show me scripture that says God compels those who are not sinners, you have no case.

If eternal torture is so important to your sound scriptural doctrine;

It isn't. Obviously you missed where I said I am open to the possibility of universal salvation.

 

[Ben12]

I guess I need to apologize for misreading where you are coming from. In reference to Calvin; I read no religious theology; I am anti-religious.

On the Adam issue; I understand where you are coming from but there is no way little Adam brought the curse on humanity without God’s total complete sovereign will; God is not so naïve.

I apologize for my preconceived judgment on your view point on freewill; I am pretty hard headed.


But as for scripture, you have not shown one single verse that speaks of God's drawing the elect to him that is not speaking of those who are ALREADY sinners.

I do not understand what you are asking me above.

 

[gluadys]

I guess I need to apologize for misreading where you are coming from. In reference to Calvin; I read no religious theology;

Well no wonder you misinterpret scripture then. There is some skill involved and some discernment. There is no point re-inventing the wheel. You want to discuss theology, you should read theology, just the same as you would read history to discuss history or read computer science to discuss computers.

On the Adam issue; I understand where you are coming from but there is no way little Adam brought the curse on humanity without God’s total complete sovereign will; God is not so naïve.

In his foreknowledge, God knew Adam would sin if God created him. In his sovereign will God chose to create him anyway and permit him to sin.

What God did not do was compel Adam to sin. God does not create bondage to sin; that is Satan's doing.

I apologize for my preconceived judgment on your view point on freewill; I am pretty hard headed.

Fwiw, Calvin and Augustine before him, discriminated among four combinations of humanity and free will: innocence, depravity, regeneration and glorification.

Innocence is the state of Adam and Eve in the garden. They did not know good and evil yet; they were free to choose either good or evil.

Depravity is the normal state of fallen humanity from Adam and Eve after the fall to the present. We know good and evil and are in bondage to evil. We have no capacity in ourselves to choose the good, and can only break free through the grace of God.

Regeneration is the state of redeemed humanity in this life. By the grace of God we have been freed from bondage to sin and by his grace we can choose the good. But we are still open to temptation and liable to sin.

Glorification is the state of redeemed humanity in eternity. It is the state of greatest freedom where freed of every last vestige of sin, our wills are purified and in harmony with the will of God so that we always freely choose what is good.

But as for scripture, you have not shown one single verse that speaks of God's drawing the elect to him that is not speaking of those who are ALREADY sinners.I do not understand what you are asking me above.

I wasn't asking anything really. Just repeating what was said above. All the scriptures which suggest no free will apply to sinful humanity, not to humanity in its innocence. They all speak of God's ability to deliver from sin.

But that is pretty meaningless until sin comes into the world.

 

[Ben12]

Reference to religion and following these men of God in the past; in the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve did the first religious act. Do you have any idea what that might be? I do not discuss theology; I discuss scripture, where does it say Calvin, Luther, Augustine or any other Great men of God will lead and Guide you into all truth; that is God’s Spirits job; not man and religion.

So how does the devil get all this power to cause the curse? I always thought God was the one with the power, not Satan? You keep bringing up freewill as if you are going to convinces me that it has relevance in scripture; show me the scripture? Adam and Eve were free to sin; (freewill again where?)God created them to sin; if they were free to sin is because he created them that way. God created the tree of Good and Evil and He was so naïve to foresee this; but had no control of the circumstance? Is this not the God who planned a savior before a sinner; so this whole human sin and death process is not totally under His sovereign and divine control? Or is it so out of control that God is just totally helpless to do anything. Romans 8 declares Are you saying the death of Jesus was an after thought; when I already pointed out God ordained the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth; what is it? Adam sinned for a purpose for God; cannot you not see that.
The offense of the first Adam brought all men under the sentence of death for sin. Hence presently our mortal bodies are in a state of dying, while our minds need to be freed from minding things of the flesh, to mind things of the Spirit. The act of disobedience of Adam brought forth death. Now, the obedience and work of righteousness of the last Adam also brings forth a death for every man. The question arises, Is the SECOND DEATH the same kind of death as the first? Many people think it is a repetition of the first, and that the results are the same, while its action is more severe and cruel, and destructive, being fire. And some Christians add very sorrowfully, 'and from this second death there is no resurrection, it is an endless torment in agony', BUT NOT SO! For God's seconds are never duplicates of the first; they are always better, higher, and more powerful than the first, and used to counter-balance all the action of the firsts, and MUCH MORE -- He always saves the best until last.

All Bible statements prove that the two deaths are absolutely UNLIKE, and that the two are opposite and antagonistic. The second death undoes all the work of the first Adam, NOT to nullify the purpose being wrought out by the plan of God in the firsts, but to bring a release from the firsts in a MUCH-MORE manner of majesty and glory and power and scope of coverage, into the greater and glorious things of God. Creation was made subject to vanity for a purpose! Sin was allowed for wise ends, but when those ends have been secured it will have to cease to exist. The purpose is not nullified, but the means whereby the purpose has been executed shall be done away. Discipline is a means to an end, but not an end in itself; it leads up to the "AFTERWARDS YIELDING THE PEACEABLE FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS."

The first Adam died to God and righteousness, and became alive unto sin. The last Adam died unto sin (Romans 6:10), and liveth unto God, and so fulfilleth all righteousness. The first made all men sinners, the last made all men righteous. The lives and deaths of the two Adams are thus greatly contrasting the one to the other. The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind, to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because -- the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe.

Death came as an enemy, the fruitage of an act of disobedience that turned man away from God and into the realm of carnality, minding self and flesh. Now God makes death overcome itself. It is by death that death is rendered powerless, and there arises an upspringing, a new life. It takes death to destroy death and thus Christ "did taste death for every man" -- "that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage" (Hebrews 2:9,14-15). Since we are all under the effects of the first death, it is appointed unto us to die once more -- not physical death, we are already in a state of mortality -- but now a dying out to this present death state. We conquer this death of the carnal mind by dying to it -- only God could use such a process bringing victory, but praise God, he is destroying the first death with the second death!
All the crucifixion, our identification with the cross of Christ, must be accepted by faith as a fact, and then the working of it in and through us is a process. If it is done now, through our yieldedness to the call and the claims upon us, we won't have to face it later in what is called "the lake of fire", which is the second death. The passing through that lake of devine purification will thoroughly purge out the last remaining fragments of the rebellion and waywardness of man, till the mystery of iniquity is no more, and then the carnal mind being abolished, death is no more."

Besides death and hades, let's note what of mankind is processed in this purifying lake. The unsavory list is a shameful roll call of the wickedness that besmirched the earth when the book was written, and today pollutes it even more! "...the fearful, the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death". The NIV translation says, "...the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars -- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur".

No matter which way you read it, that list comprises the sin that completely impregnates mankind with the brutish power of the first death. These are DEAD in their trespasses and in sins, (Ephesians 2:1,5.14; Colossians 2:13; et al ), sold under sin (Romans 7:14), bond-slaves of carnality's meanest and most "devilish" passions, corrupt and perverse in nature, obsessed with sexual depravity and every evil invention of mind or body that their self-will is able to devise. Not only are such driven by the unrelenting spirit of the world and the flesh, but they rejoice in their chains and their filth, blatantly proclaiming their "freedom", their "liberty", -- coaxing and beguiling the weak to wallow with them!

Nothing God has done has yet broken these stubborn, rebellious wills and they remain unrepentant. The wages of sin hasn't, not hell, nor the harvest of evil -- not even the tender mercies and loving kindness of the LORD has broken them. The Holy Spirit has told us of a second death into which these incorrigibly wicked men shall surely be placed, and they are placed there by our Lord, along with death and hell.

This second death is similar to the first death in that "time" and "experience" are integral parts of it, but it shall surely be more severe in process than what we are now experiencing. The penalty for sin is harsh and terrible. Whether "many stripes" or "few stripes", God's processing is suited to breaking the resistance of the willfully wicked, and some rebellion requires more severity than others to subdue it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Mankind was created in the first place to be formed into a body of spiritual/spirit beings through the process of repentance, salvation, and finally glorification as the bride of Christ. This means that Eve and Adam had to sin to get the process started. God didn't create us just to allow us to run around like wild animals doing anything we wish to do. We are like a dog that has freewill until he gets to the end of his chain. Every act of man is either directed or allowed by God toward his ultimate purpose for us; either salvation or destruction.

Gluadys, I want to disagree with something you said about Adam and Eve's choice of evil over good. They didn't have that choice. They ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It was a single act that brought them both choices. The two are hopelessly entwined as Jesus pointed out when he posed the question "How is it that you, being evil, can do good things.....? Paul's moral dilemna also expresses this fact.

What Adam and Eve did was take to themselves the decision of what they thought was good and what was evil. They ingested mentally and morally a body of knowledge in the form of attitude, disposition and proclivities, if not actual working 'carnal' knowledge. From there it was just a matter of time and experience for mankind to fall into complete moral debauchery.

Adam and Eve didn't create the tree of knowledge, God did. Eve "saw that it was good for food, and to make one wise", and ate of it for this reason. She had no idea what body of knowledge was coming her way before she ate of it. It appealed to her appetite and vanity, not her intellect.

When she began to feel the effects of her act she 'gave' (should be translated 'put upon') Adam to also eat of it. Adam was condemned for "hearkening to the voice of (his) wife". It's not difficult to construct a reasonable scenario of Eve nagging or threatening Adam if he didn't also transgress God's instruction by also eating of the fruit.

It's sad to say but nagging and/or withholding sex is still a powerful tool used by women to get their way.

owg

 

[]RiSeN[]

Your reasoning Ben12 is not unlike many "born again" christians, who, learn first about Christ through the gospels and then try to interpret the OT according to popular teachings and ideas they have acrude from the greek scriptures. And there in lies the problem, your reading the bible backwards.

The Bible starts at Genesis 1:1, not John 1:1.

If, as you say, God knew of the fall before He created mankind, can you please explain God's hypocracy found in Genesis 1:16-17;

"From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."

Why would a loving, just, and righteous God tell Adam not to do something He already knows Adam will do? Why is God deceitful?

 

[gluadys]

Mankind was created in the first place to be formed into a body of spiritual/spirit beings through the process of repentance, salvation, and finally glorification as the bride of Christ. This means that Eve and Adam had to sin to get the process started. God didn't create us just to allow us to run around like wild animals doing anything we wish to do.

I am glad to see you understand that Adam and Eve were truly innocent as babes in the Garden. And I agree that it would not be God's will for those made in his image and given dominion over his creation to remain in this condition.

But it does not follow that maturing in wisdom had to be preceded by sin. Otherwise the child Jesus could not have grown in wisdom without sin.

We cannot know that they had to follow the course they did. Only that they made a choice to disobey. We do not know that had they obeyed they would have remained in the state of wild animals. For they were not created for that role.

We are like a dog that has freewill until he gets to the end of his chain. Every act of man is either directed or allowed by God toward his ultimate purpose for us; either salvation or destruction.

Yes, that I agree with. God clearly foreknew that they would disobey and clearly allowed them to do so. It does not follow that he compelled them to do so. We cannot say they were forced to choose disobedience.

Gluadys, I want to disagree with something you said about Adam and Eve's choice of evil over good. They didn't have that choice. They ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It was a single act that brought them both choices. The two are hopelessly entwined as Jesus pointed out when he posed the question "How is it that you, being evil, can do good things.....? Paul's moral dilemna also expresses this fact.

That's a fair critique.

Adam and Eve didn't create the tree of knowledge, God did. Eve "saw that it was good for food, and to make one wise", and ate of it for this reason. She had no idea what body of knowledge was coming her way before she ate of it. It appealed to her appetite and vanity, not her intellect.

I don't know. Is not desiring to become wise an appeal to the intellect? Let us remember that the intellect is also corrupted by sin. It is not a special unfallen trait of human nature.

It's not difficult to construct a reasonable scenario of Eve nagging or threatening Adam if he didn't also transgress God's instruction by also eating of the fruit.

Nagging and/or withholding sex is still a powerful tool used by women to get their way. (Flame away gals!)

As long as we remember that it is an imaginative "just so" story. Remember that Adam is also judged. And, as long as we are embellishing scripture, there is also the legend of Lilith.

 

[Ben12]

Your reasoning Ben12 is not unlike many "born again" christians, who, learn first about Christ through the gospels and then try to interpret the OT according to popular teachings and ideas they have acrude from the greek scriptures. And there in lies the problem, your reading the bible backwards.

The Bible starts at Genesis 1:1, not John 1:1.

If, as you say, God knew of the fall before He created mankind, can you please explain God's hypocracy found in Genesis 1:16-17;

"From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."

Why would a loving, just, and righteous God tell Adam not to do something He already knows Adam will do? Why is God deceitful?

What is so deceitful about God telling them “"From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."; when that is exactly what God wanted; death for Adam, for Eve; and for you and me. Does it really matter what order I approach scripture to you; be in John 1 or Genesis 1; it is all God’s Word. Is there some rule or law you want to show me there the end of the Bible is not as important to the beginning of the Bible. There is no popular teaching to what I am expressing; I do not know where you got that from? God had a hope all figured out that was far more awesome then the fall; God that is important to God for His son’s is the process of maturing, developing and growing. Think of it this way, when Jesus came to earth manifested in flesh, He took upon Himself this death realm, and like us, He was limited by time and space. He was tired; He was hungry; He suffered from being tempted like we all do, (Heb. 2:18), which meant that He had taken upon himself every burden which is common to man. He was indeed "a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief." (Is. 53:3). When He died and rose from the dead, He was now limitless in every dimension. Paul exalted, "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have come to fullness of life in him, who is the head of all rule and authority." (Col. 2:9-10). He was set free from death which rules every man in the natural, and now He is eternal Spirit, and eternal Life manifested in His believers. He is everywhere, in every heart at the same time. He had said to the Samaritan woman, "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH, for such the father seeks to worship him. God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." (Jn. 4:23-24).


Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

 

[Ben12]

What is so deceitful about God telling them “"From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."; when that is exactly what God wanted; death for Adam, for Eve; and for you and me. Does it really matter what order I approach scripture to you; be in John 1 or Genesis 1; it is all God’s Word. Is there some rule or law you want to show me there the end of the Bible is not as important to the beginning of the Bible. There is no popular teaching to what I am expressing; I do not know where you got that from? God had a hope all figured out that was far more awesome then the fall; God that is important to God for His son’s is the process of maturing, developing and growing. Think of it this way, when Jesus came to earth manifested in flesh, He took upon Himself this death realm, and like us, He was limited by time and space. He was tired; He was hungry; He suffered from being tempted like we all do, (Heb. 2:18), which meant that He had taken upon himself every burden which is common to man. He was indeed "a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief." (Is. 53:3). When He died and rose from the dead, He was now limitless in every dimension. Paul exalted, "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have come to fullness of life in him, who is the head of all rule and authority." (Col. 2:9-10). He was set free from death which rules every man in the natural, and now He is eternal Spirit, and eternal Life manifested in His believers. He is everywhere, in every heart at the same time. He had said to the Samaritan woman, "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH, for such the father seeks to worship him. God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." (Jn. 4:23-24).


Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

 

[]RiSeN[]

What is so deceitful about God telling them “"From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."; when that is exactly what God wanted; death for Adam, for Eve; and for you and me.

Wether or not God wanted it or not is not the issue I brought up. The manner in which Jehovah goes about fullfilling His will is, if using the ideas you have adopted, deceitful. God can not be deceitful. God cannot lie nor be dishonest in any way. His will cannot violate His qualities. He is perfect. The instant you want to start pretending God can tell a 'white' lie everything goes out the window.

What your trying to tell me is that the ends justify the means. Which can not be so with a perfect God.

And the idea that God wanted us to sin is absolutely contrary to everything God teaches His people throughout the entire bible. By saying this you once again are saying that God is a hypocrite since He chastises, disciplines and punishes based on wether or not mankind follows His commands, making Him unjust since He punishes us for something He made sure happened, sin.

No, Jehovah's adversary did this;

"And Jehovah God proceeded to say to the serpent: "Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field."" - Gen 3:14

And man chose to follow his own desires;

When under trial, let no one say: "I am being tried by God." For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death. - James 1:13-15

rather than the utterances of Jehovah;

"But in reply he said: "It is written, ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah’s mouth.’" - Matt 4:4

Does it really matter what order I approach scripture to you; be in John 1 or Genesis 1; it is all God’s Word. Is there some rule or law you want to show me there the end of the Bible is not as important to the beginning of the Bible.

Why have schools not adopted your manner of study? Why does the mathematics teacher teach simple addition and subtraction first and not quantum mechanics? Is it logical for biologists to learn how to decode DNA or produce vaccines if they can not identify the composition of a simple cell?

Would you let a doctor operate on you if he told you he was going to read up on the procedure after the operation?

There is no popular teaching to what I am expressing; I do not know where you got that from?

Predestination, through God being omniscient to the absolute degree, is a popular teaching, albeit false.

God had a hope all figured out that was far more awesome then the fall; God that is important to God for His son’s is the process of maturing, developing and growing.

So God created man in His image, perfect and reflecting all of God's qualities only to sin and become imperfect, so that he can learn to be perfect? That makes no sense at all. these ideas are making God out to be a fool.

Think of it this way, when Jesus came to earth manifested in flesh, He took upon Himself this death realm, and like us, He was limited by time and space. He was tired; He was hungry; He suffered from being tempted like we all do, (Heb. 2:18), which meant that He had taken upon himself every burden which is common to man. He was indeed "a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief." (Is. 53:3). When He died and rose from the dead, He was now limitless in every dimension. Paul exalted, "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have come to fullness of life in him, who is the head of all rule and authority." (Col. 2:9-10). He was set free from death which rules every man in the natural, and now He is eternal Spirit, and eternal Life manifested in His believers. He is everywhere, in every heart at the same time. He had said to the Samaritan woman, "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH, for such the father seeks to worship him. God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." (Jn. 4:23-24).


Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

What does this have to do with anything?

On a side note;


Suppose you found out that your whole neighborhood has been contaminated. Someone has secretly been dumping poisonous waste in the area, and now the situation is life threatening. What would you do? No doubt, you would move away if you could. But after doing that, you would still face this serious question, ‘Have I been poisoned?’

You left religion for good in 1975, right? You are to be commended. But more is involved than just separating yourself or resigning from a false religion. Afterward, you must ask yourself, ‘Do any traces of false worship remain in me?’

So I ask you to please consider with humility the things presented to you. This is not a question of who is smarter, its a matter of life and death. I apologize if I have put you off at all, I know I can be quite direct and blunt. May Jehovah bless all your efforts towards seeking His truth and serving Him.

 

[Ben12]

How is God lying or being deceitful, He said they would die and they died. So God cannot use sin as a tool to change His creation; where did you get this; Chapter and verse? Adam was clothed by God’s glory before the fall. By eating of the tree of Good and Evil he was brought down to the realm of death. Adam died when he partook of the fruit in the garden; he did not die physically until he was 930 years old. (Gen. 5.5) He died spiritually. In Adam’s mind he was deceived to believe something he already was; instead of doing only God’s will like Jesus. Adam did Adam’s will.
God is not unjust; to include His punishment (prune) maybe the problem is your concept of what God’s Justice is and his punishment. Mankind cannot follow God’s plan unless God draws them.
Why do you call God “Jehovah”; where do you get the name for God is one only Jehovah?
Amen for the curse; Jesus is now reversing the curse. Yes we have the sin nature in us and no one is blaming God for our sin; I am just saying the curse happened because God ordained it. If God was not the cause for sin then God is god.
Who says I have to the Bible should work like a math teacher or biologist or even a doctor; it is a divinely written book. Let me ask you as simple question? Why was Abel’s sacrifice more acceptable then Cain’s?
No God’s is not a fool, man is the fool and I stand by my conviction; the very questioned you asked was answered by these paragraphs you did not understand.

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)​

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.​

​

This is why Adam fell: God wants overcoming sons not innocence sons that can be deceived.


In His great victory over the power of Satan He was a sign that pointed unerringly to another company of overcoming sons. In all the churches of Revelation there were two classes of people — those who were overcomers and those who were not. It is to the overcomers that the glorious promises are given, for they follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth, have partaken of His mind and of His will, and thus are equipped to reign in His kingdom.

Thus to them it is said: "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev. 2:7.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Rev. 2:11.

"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." Rev. 2:17.

"He that overcometh and keepeth My works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessel of the potter shall they be broken to shivers even as I received of My Father, and I will give him the morning star." Rev. 2:26-28.

"He that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God and he shall go no more out and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God which cometh down out of heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name." Rev. 3:12, 13.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne even as I overcame and am set down with My Father in His throne." Rev. 3:21. "He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

 

[Ben12]

The good God, according to the common testimony of church goers, is ever trying to do this and that, while the Devil is continually interfering with His plans, frustrating His purposes, usurping His instruments and defeating the issue. On some good days the good God wins, on some bad days He loses. They go about continually talking to the Devil, praying to the Devil (though they call it commanding and rebuking), and give place to him over and over again. They "bind" him in this meeting or in that situation, but, like Samson breaking the cords of Delilah, he bounces right back in full regalia at the next meeting or occasion. These "devil-worshippers" ever beat the air against him and do occasionally, they claim, win a battle against him, but the war rages on. If they do not get an immediate answer to their prayer, they are sure the Devil is hindering. If everything does not go according to plan, the Devil is interfering. If obstacles appear along the way, the Devil is fighting them. The outcome of this battle exceeds the ludicrous —it is a terrible blasphemy. Not only are most Christians constantly defeated in their spiritual life, but they actually consign to the Devil the final victory in God's creation. The majority is thoroughly convinced that in the end the Devil wins at least 90% of humanity and carries them down with him into everlasting damnation and hell-fire. The picture drawn is of a frustrated God who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son to be its Saviour, but alas! only a handful of the teeming billions of earth can be persuaded to take advantage of His gracious provision, the rest led captive by the ruthless and unrelenting grasp of the Devil. The bad God is thus far more effective in his designs for mankind than the good God. I long with intense longing that the Lord's precious people will repent of ever having believed the insipid and useless traditions that make the almighty God seem to be a victim of the will of His own creation. It is my opinion that most of the theology of the Christian world is stupid prattle that seeks to render the almighty God impotent by robbing Him of His omnipotence. It teaches that God gave His Son that all the world through Him might be saved and then renders His sacrifice hopeless by leaving ninety-nine percent of all His creatures in the hands of the Devil for all eternity. In this view God finally gives up, throws up His hands in defeat, and says, "I've had enough!" He then turns the billions of souls over to the Devil, consigning them all to banishment from His presence into the unending torments of fiery damnation. The fact is, precious friend of mine, a scene such as this would be comparable to the President of a country handing the masses of his nation over to the enemy as punishment because his General lost the war— while he (God), his General (Jesus) and the army (the saints) are rewarded with peace, wealth and pleasure forevermore. Everyone becomes a prisoner, burning forever in torment, EXCEPT THE ONES WHO HAD THE RESPONSIBILITY OF WINNING THE WAR! I tell you solemnly and reverently that the God I serve is not the author of this kind of nonsense. Such a doctrine as that belittles the power and wisdom of God and does despite to the spirit of grace, the atoning work of Christ, and the precious blood that He shed so that the world through Him might be saved. Such a doctrine as that is, undoubtedly, one of the "doctrines of devils" of which Paul warned. I say that because I cannot think of anyone outside of the Devil himself who would be happy with the prospect that Calvary was such a colossal failure! But the preachers, including some who profess to be in the "Kingdom Message," would lay down their lives for such an abominable heresy!
I say to all who read these lines that OUR GOD IS SOVEREIGN AND OMNIPOTENT. If ever there will come victory over the negative realm, the adversary, it will be when we come to KNOW THAT GOD IS GOD, AND THERE I-S N-0 0-T-H-E-R GOD. He is sovereignly in control of all that touches our life, and of the march of history and the final outcome for all creation. The nations know not this God, nor do the professing Christians in the church systems know Him. So the Lord almighty within must bring forth those who can be His witnesses — people who have come to experientially KNOW THAT HE, and HE ALONE I-S GOD. Those whose very lives convey the message and bear the evidence that there is but ONE GOD. We have had enough of the world's stupid witness, those who believe in a God for good, and another God for evil, and oft limes it is not clear which "GOD" they are declaring, especially when they spend more time exalting the prowess of the Devil than they do proclaiming the praises of their Creator and Redeemer. Let all men know — God is even now producing His witnesses WHO KNOW that HE alone is God, that HE controls the interplay between good and evil, that all is by HIS design and at HIS word, and the evidence of this reality is demonstrated by their lives. Once Christ truly and experientially becomes LORD OF ALL IN YOU, then He will have abolished for you all Devil-consciousness and HE will be both the Center and the Circumference of your reality. In that day, my beloved, for you, THERE IS NO DEVIL ANYMORE!
Was Jesus Christ not a great fighter? Is He not a great fighter still? And is He not the Prince of Peace? Is He not God's Lion, the Lion of the tribe of Judah? And is He not the Lamb of God? God's Lion is a Lamb! God's Lamb is a Lion! I call God to witness and you to witness that when I have been called upon to fight — for whom have I fought?' I fought for God. I fought for Truth. I fought for reality. I fought against the false shepherds who were taking away the key of knowledge, who entered not in themselves, and them that were entering in they hindered. I fought those who withstood the right ways of the Lord, deceiving the people and holding them in bondage to slavish forms of empty religion and superstitious conceptions of God. Stephen fought the devils in the Jewish system to their very faces although he knew he would die. He saw his Master in the heavens. Do you sec your Master in the heavens? Do you see that the only Reality is that which emanates from the Christ-Spirit Do you know Him within, in the depths of your being? Do you hear His voice?

 

[Ben12]

Do you know what He wants you to do? He wants you to follow in His steps, to BECOME HIS SALVATION unto the ends of the earth. He wants you to grasp hold of life, and deliver His creation from sin, sorrow, death, hell and the demonic power which curses this world. The peace of God means war with sin. He that is a friend of evil is the enemy of God. This is the kind of peace Jesus left He made warriors of men. They went forth to fight the world and the Devil, in Greece and Rome, with thirty thousand gods. They marched up the Acropolis; they marched upon the Parthenon; they threw down the altars of the boni dei, they threw down the altars of Venus; they destroyed the altars of Jove, They demolished the altars of Mercury. They smashed them, by the Spirit's power, with the sword of TRUTH they trampled upon them; they triumphed and brought in a dimension of the kingdom of God.
Oh, that is such a sublime verse where Jesus said, "ALL AUTHORITY is given unto Me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore and teach all nations..." (Mat. 28: 18-19). Do you see that? There is a tremendous power in that "Therefore," I am with you. I will back you. Every angel in heaven if needful will come forth and surround you. Fight! What does it matter, the puny governments and armies and courts of THIS WORLD? All authority is given to the Christ of God, and we are the members of God's Christ! The hosts of God will troop over all the skies, ten thousand times ten thousand millions, if need be. Embrace TRUTH! Speak TRUTH! Live TRUTH! "I COMMAND...Go ye therefore, you poor fishermen, and tax-gatherers and discredited rabbis, go, I am with you." If only we realized what power there is behind us!
God is raising up a SONSHIP COMPANY that will go for the Devil's fortresses, to batter him, shatter him and break up his kingdom. God is even now preparing an army of OVERCOMING ONES, transformed in the spirit of their mind, triumphing over sin, error, limitation and death, who shall go forth in the power of the SPIRIT to pull down the strongholds of creed and ritual and religious foolishness and ignorance and set the captives free; who will beat down the strongholds of miss-conceptions, miss-information, miss-understanding — sin and death — and let the prisoners go free! Satan is not a God like unto the Lord my God. He does not interfere with God's purposes nor frustrate God's plans. ALL AUTHORITY is given to the Christ of God — in heaven and in earth! How much authority is "ALL" authority? I shall fight that battle against the lies of religion and for the supremacy of the Christ while there is a drop of blood in my body. I shall claim that every foot of this earth and every man upon this earth and under the earth belongs to Christ, for He made the earth and He made every man. He tasted death for every man, and therefore, every foot of the earth; and every man on the earth and under the earth belongs to Christ my Lord. They are His by right of creation and they are His by right of redemption. No Devil anywhere can gainsay that fact. I claim for His this great and universal Kingdom. The church has forgotten that Christ came to establish a Kingdom and that it must break in pieces and CONSUME (take into itself) every other kingdom including the Devil's kingdom. The Gospel which Christ preached was the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. The hope and aim of all His work was the establishment of the Kingdom of God. When the end shall come, He shall deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father, and in it will be everything God created, that God may be ALL-IN-ALL. We who preach this Gospel of the all-inclusive redemption of Christ preach not a Gospel of limited atonement, nor of a partial Kingdom, nor of a Christ who was a failure, nor of a Devil who wins the battle for souls and possesses the souls of untold billions throughout an endless eternity. Such a doctrine would be blasphemy! We preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and of the triumph of that Kingdom in every realm. We demand that every man upon this God's earth, and under the earth, and in heaven and hell and throughout the universe, shall bow the knee and glorify God by calling Jesus Lord and serving and obeying Him with a willing heart. God shall grant it. If it takes ages upon ages, God shall grant it!
We must have it! We shall fight it out to the end, and we will win. The Christ in us shall win. Sin shall be abolished. Disease, death, pain, and hell shall pass away. This victory must be fully accomplished in the firstfruits first. The Day is at hand. Then, 0 Christ, and then alone, wilt Thou see the travail of Thy soul and be satisfied. Then, 0 Christ, and then alone, can we be satisfied; when the last rebel has bowed at Thy feel, and there is no more Fight; for there is no more Devil anywhere. Hallelujah! God shall reign forever, the reality of creation! It is a living hope; this hope that, at last, every poor sinner will have heard the glad sound, and that at last every poor spirit in earth and heaven and hell will bow before the Christ, and will own His sway, and there shall be harmony and peace and unity everywhere, for God shall be All in All. That is my hope.

 

[]RiSeN[]

How is God lying or being deceitful, He said they would die and they died.

God said they would die ONLY if the partook of the tree. ONLY if they CHOSE to disobey.

So God cannot use sin as a tool to change His creation; where did you get this; Chapter and verse?

James 1:13-15. This is I think the 3rd or 4th time I've quoted this verse.

Adam was clothed by God’s glory before the fall. By eating of the tree of Good and Evil he was brought down to the realm of death. Adam died when he partook of the fruit in the garden; he did not die physically until he was 930 years old. (Gen. 5.5) He died spiritually. In Adam’s mind he was deceived to believe something he already was; instead of doing only God’s will like Jesus. Adam did Adam’s will.

"For Adam was formed first, then Eve. Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression" - 1Tim 2:13-14

Paul does not agree with you. Whom should I believe? You or Paul?

God is not unjust; to include His punishment (prune) maybe the problem is your concept of what God’s Justice is and his punishment. Mankind cannot follow God’s plan unless God draws them.

What is there to "prune" since it has already been decided who will be saved and who will be damned?

"Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." - 2Peter 3:9

According to God's word, the bible, God desires all to attain repentance. God does not want any to be destroyed. How can God desire all to attain repentance if some are destined by God Himself to be damned? Once again, is Jehovah lieing? Or are you misinformed?

Why do you call God “Jehovah”; where do you get the name for God is one only Jehovah?

"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,​

You alone are the Most High over all the earth" - Psalms 83:18

You will find this in many Bibles, try the King James or Darby. Also, does the Weymouth have the Old Testament too? I couldnt find it.

Amen for the curse; Jesus is now reversing the curse. Yes we have the sin nature in us and no one is blaming God for our sin; I am just saying the curse happened because God ordained it. If God was not the cause for sin then God is god.

I've already discussed this. God does not ordain the coruption of His perfect creation.

Who says I have to the Bible should work like a math teacher or biologist or even a doctor; it is a divinely written book.

And since it is a divinely inspired book all the more reason it should be considered carefully and properly, in fact with the utmost respect and care. How many Isrealite would have made it to the promised land if they had adopted your attitude towards the bible and applied it to their keeping of the Law? I think none.




Let me ask you as simple question? Why was Abel’s sacrifice more acceptable then Cain’s?

The reason for God’s approval of only Abel’s offering is made clear by later writings. The apostle Paul lists Abel as the first man of faith, at Hebrews 11:4, and shows that this resulted in his sacrifice being of "greater worth" than Cain’s offering. By contrast, 1 John 3:11, 12 shows Cain’s heart attitude to have been bad; and his later rejection of God’s counsel and warning, as well as his premeditated murder of his brother Abel, demonstrated this.
While it cannot be said that Abel had any foreknowledge of the eventual outworking of the divine promise at Genesis 3:15 concerning the promised "seed," he likely had given much thought to that promise and believed that blood would have to be shed, someone would have to be ‘bruised in the heel,’ so that mankind might be uplifted again to the state of perfection that Adam and Eve had enjoyed before their rebellion. (Heb 11:4) In the light of this, Abel’s offering of the firstlings of his flock certainly was appropriate and undoubtedly was a factor in God’s expression of approval. To the Giver of life, Abel gave as his gift life, even though it was only from among the flock.—Compare Joh 1:36.​

Jesus shows Abel to have been the first martyr and object of religious persecution waged by his intolerant brother Cain. In doing so, Jesus speaks of Abel as living at "the founding of the world." (Lu 11:48-51) The Greek word for "world" is ko´smos and in this text refers to the world of mankind. The term "founding" is a rendering of the Greek ka·ta·bo·le´ and literally means "throwing down [of seed]." (Heb 11:11, Int) By the expression "the founding of the world," Jesus manifestly referred to the birth of children to Adam and Eve, thereby producing a world of mankind.

No God’s is not a fool, man is the fool and I stand by my conviction; the very questioned you asked was answered by these paragraphs you did not understand.

I apologize but, you are hard to understand.

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.​

This is why Adam fell: God wants overcoming sons not innocence sons that can be deceived.


In His great victory over the power of Satan He was a sign that pointed unerringly to another company of overcoming sons. In all the churches of Revelation there were two classes of people — those who were overcomers and those who were not. It is to the overcomers that the glorious promises are given, for they follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth, have partaken of His mind and of His will, and thus are equipped to reign in His kingdom.

Thus to them it is said: "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev. 2:7.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Rev. 2:11.

"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." Rev. 2:17.

"He that overcometh and keepeth My works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessel of the potter shall they be broken to shivers even as I received of My Father, and I will give him the morning star." Rev. 2:26-28.

"He that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God and he shall go no more out and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God which cometh down out of heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name." Rev. 3:12, 13.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne even as I overcame and am set down with My Father in His throne." Rev. 3:21. "He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

Again, the idea that God would create a perfect man in order for that man to be made perfect through imperfection is nonsense.

Why do you keep insisting that God could not create man perfect and complete in the first place. That some how God, who is the Perfector of perfection, needed to improve His creation through the use of sin.

You keep talking about how others are constantly limiting God's power, yet at every turn you shackle His will, qualities and abilities simply to make God conform to a twisted mythology conjured in your own imperfect mind.