God ordained sin? [split from Adam/Eve thread in Origins]

[]RiSeN[]

]RiSeN[ vbmenu_register("postmenu_43759806", true);

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (KJV)

1 Sam 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
(KJV)

1 Sam 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the (KJV)

Not only are you cherry picking verses but also bibles. Your simply switching back and forth to whatever better suits your twistings. Which leads me to ask, why are you so bent on preaching that God commits evil? I think you have been seriously mislead by someone elses teachings.

 

[Ben12]

Read in context, Paul clearly connects the subjection of creation to the introduction of sin into the world.



Not a greater will, but the free will God chose to give him. God did not make Adam to be an automaton.

I have been reading in context; but you keep changing the context to your bias; I am waiting to for you to show me scripture not spin. One of the things that really irritate me today in scripture is God’s people changing God’s Word because it just does not fit their bias.

Greater will? (did a search; not found in scripture)
Freewill?

The very people who swear by the Bible never bothered to look up the word freewill in scripture. Oh sure you can find the word Freewill in the OT when it comes to the Hebrew Freewill offering; BUT that feast has nothing to do with basic salvation.

Freewill is just another doctrine to put man in the driver’s seat; this is God’s will; His Word and all of God’s it will be accomplished. It is not a matter of freewill; (we are saved by grace not freewill) free will is a non scriptural word that religious men use to make men feel guilty) for the only freewill we have is to sin; God call/calls/draws/drags people which is totally contrary to the religious man made doctrine from Rome. God draws us or if you dig a little harder He drags us; there is NO FREE WILL when you are being drawn or dragged in fact it totally to the contrary.

Romans 3:11 ​

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. ​

John 6:44​

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws​

(drag Greek) him, and I will raise him up at the last day​

​

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o); drag ​

​

Jeremiah 18:2​

Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. ​

3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. ​

4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.​

​

Romans 9:12 It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [1] relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).) 14 What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.) 16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. 19 You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? 20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and Why have you made me thus? 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?



Seriously; are we talking about the Bible here or your own imagination and SPIN?

 

[Ben12]

Not only are you cherry picking verses but also bibles. Your simply switching back and forth to whatever better suits your twistings. Which leads me to ask, why are you so bent on preaching that God commits evil? I think you have been seriously mislead by someone elses teachings.

You ask for scripture and then you call it cherry pick when I give it to you?? You have said or debated nothing; all you do it defend your preconceived bias with your own understanding. If I am so seriously mislead then show me in scripture; that is all I have done; and something you are totally avoided.

Does anyone one here use the Bible to prove their point…….

 

[]RiSeN[]

You ask for scripture and then you call it cherry pick when I give it to you?? You have said or debated nothing; all you do it defend your preconceived bias with your own understanding. If I am so seriously mislead then show me in scripture; that is all I have done; and something you are totally avoided.

Does anyone one here use the Bible to prove their point…….

You made the claim that God has predestined everything including evil, therefore God is commiting evil. If God had foreknowledge of all the gross attrocities and perversions that would befall His creation before He created them then by all logic and reason God commited a gross immoral sin.

I sited James, supported by other scripture, who says you are either lieing or mis-informed. You have not adressed this except by throwing around more scriptures which only say what you claim they do because of your own preconcieved bias.

 

[gluadys]

Oh sure you can find the word Freewill in the OT when it comes to the Hebrew Freewill offering; BUT that feast has nothing to do with basic salvation.

True.

It is not a matter of freewill; (we are saved by grace not freewill)

True.

However, it was through free will that Adam first sinned. It is through grace--not free will--that we are saved from sin.

for the only freewill we have is to sin;

True, but it was not so in the beginning before we came into bondage to sin.

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws (drag Greek) him, and I will raise him up at the last day

These and all the other scriptures you cite are correct. They all apply in the current fallen state of humanity.

Your error is in applying them to Adam prior to the fall.

 

[gluadys]

If God had foreknowledge of all the gross attrocities and perversions that would befall His creation before He created them then by all logic and reason God commited a gross immoral sin.

Incorrect since:

1. God did have foreknowledge of all the atrocities and perversions that would befall creation, and
2. God does not sin.

Something is wrong with your logic.

btw--this thread has veered far into general apologetics (or maybe Christian apologetics) and should perhaps be moved there--or at least the relevant posts.

 

[]RiSeN[]

Incorrect since:

1. God did have foreknowledge of all the atrocities and perversions that would befall creation, and

Unsupported assertion and premise.

2. God does not sin.

True.

Something is wrong with your logic.

You haven't shown it to be so.

 

[armothe]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (KJV)

1 Sam 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the (KJV)

I needs to be pointed ou that the term for “evil” is a broad term that need not refer to spiritual wickedness. In fact, it often refers to physical harm or painful hardship (e.g., Genesis 19:19; 2 Samuel 17:14). In the case of Isaiah and Amos it is interpreted as calamity or ill-fortune.

The other thing we need to be aware of is that Hebrew linguistic features are loaded with figurative language. Many times when something is said to be from someone it merely indicates that it was permitted by, not caused. Not to mention the word spirit (ruach) has several different meanings. A popular interpretation is that Saul simply was his own worst enemy and developed a sour disposition. It was common for Hebrew authors to attribute such conditions and sickness as being permitted by God.


-A

 

[Ben12]

You made the claim that God has predestined everything including evil, therefore God is commiting evil. If God had foreknowledge of all the gross attrocities and perversions that would befall His creation before He created them then by all logic and reason God commited a gross immoral sin.

I sited James, supported by other scripture, who says you are either lieing or mis-informed. You have not adressed this except by throwing around more scriptures which only say what you claim they do because of your own preconcieved bias.

If I am lying or misinformed then God’s Word is lying and mis-informed; what ever claim I have made our scriptural based not coming from my bias and preconceived dogma; step out of your little box;; do I need to repost the scripture?

A least I have scriptures to throw around; where are yours?????? I have addressed you; you are the one that must be misinformed or lying; where is your scripture? Is God not in control of all things including evil; is evil so out of control that God is helpless; did not God create all things including the devil? Are you saying that the Devil is so big and evil that God cannot control the evil?

 

[Ben12]

I needs to be pointed ou that the term for “evil” is a broad term that need not refer to spiritual wickedness. In fact, it often refers to physical harm or painful hardship (e.g., Genesis 19:19; 2 Samuel 17:14). In the case of Isaiah and Amos it is interpreted as calamity or ill-fortune.

The other thing we need to be aware of is that Hebrew linguistic features are loaded with figurative language. Many times when something is said to be from someone it merely indicates that it was permitted by, not caused. Not to mention the word spirit (ruach) has several different meanings. A popular interpretation is that Saul simply was his own worst enemy and developed a sour disposition. It was common for Hebrew authors to attribute such conditions and sickness as being permitted by God.


-A

So God is not in control of all things?

 

[Ben12]

You made the claim that God has predestined everything including evil, therefore God is commiting evil. If God had foreknowledge of all the gross attrocities and perversions that would befall His creation before He created them then by all logic and reason God commited a gross immoral sin.

I sited James, supported by other scripture, who says you are either lieing or mis-informed. You have not adressed this except by throwing around more scriptures which only say what you claim they do because of your own preconcieved bias.

Some how you have sin mixed in with God being control of all things. Did not God create Satan; or did Satan just pop up out of the blue? Did not God create the tree of Good and EVIL? God is spelled "GOD" not "good".

Colossians 1: 16because by him were created all things, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or principalities, or authorities: all things have been created by him and for him. 17And *he* is before all, and all things subsist together by him.

 

[Ben12]

True.


However, it was through free will that Adam first sinned. It is through grace--not free will--that we are saved from sin.

Your error is in applying them to Adam prior to the fall.

Show me anywhere in the Bible where freewill is mentioned reference to Adam (or anyone’s ability will over God) ; BIG claim; no scripture?

So are you saying little Adam freewill was so powerful that God had no say it; Adam will is more powerful then God Will? So the whole world became under the bondage of sin, death; and God was totally HELPLESS? God's Will is so weak and helpless that Adam could do what ever he felt like it without God's permission?

I am sure glad my God is not so helpless and uncaring


12 It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [1] relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).) 14 What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I
will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.) 16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.

 

[armothe]

So God is not in control of all things?

Did God compell me to spill the box of Cheerios this morning so I had to eat Frosted Flakes instead?

Did God prevent me from trimming my sideburns so they would grow out?

Did God cause a moment of weakness when I caught myself eyeing that cute girl that jogged by the house?

I believe you might have a westernized definition of the word control. God isn't sitting in a massive computer console in Heaven micro-managing our lives. He doesn't make every decision and choice for us by zapping us with His magical Sovereignty wand. Control can be a passive nature where Creator simply allows the Created to exist - intervening occasionally to accomplish some purpose.

I dunno Ben, does my choice of breakfast cereals put the Lord's sovereignty and control over the universe at risk?

-A

 

[Ben12]

Did God compell me to spill the box of Cheerios this morning so I had to eat Frosted Flakes instead?

Did God prevent me from trimming my sideburns so they would grow out?

Did God cause a moment of weakness when I caught myself eyeing that cute girl that jogged by the house?

I believe you might have a westernized definition of the word control. God isn't sitting in a massive computer console in Heaven micro-managing our lives. He doesn't make every decision and choice for us by zapping us with His magical Sovereignty wand. Control can be a passive nature where Creator simply allows the Created to exist - intervening occasionally to accomplish some purpose.

I dunno Ben, does my choice of breakfast cereals put the Lord's sovereignty and control over the universe at risk?

-A

I do know I do not believe in this helpless God you all seem to worship. You would not be eating cheerios or frosted flakes or trimming your sideburns, nor that moment of weakness would never happen it you were not here; God put you here for a purpose against your will. That carnal, human, Adamic nature is as much as part of God’s plan for all humanity as God’s choosing Jesus to die on the cross before the foundation of the earth. Something as big as the f Adam’s fall not to be totally under the sovereign control God total plan is making God a god; not Lord of lords, King of Kings and .

Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

Deuteronomy 10:14

Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

1 Corinthians 10:26
For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.​

Psalm 51 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


(HCSB) 5 Indeed, I was guilty [when I] was born; I was sinful when my mother conceived me.

(NLV) 5 See, I was born in sin and was in sin from my very beginning.

 

[]RiSeN[]

I do know I do not believe in this helpless God you all seem to worship. You would not be eating cheerios or frosted flakes or trimming your sideburns, nor that moment of weakness would never happen it you were not here; God put you here for a purpose against your will. That carnal, human, Adamic nature is as much as part of God’s plan for all humanity as God’s choosing Jesus to die on the cross before the foundation of the earth. Something as big as the f Adam’s fall not to be totally under the sovereign control God total plan is making God a god; not Lord of lords, King of Kings and .

To the contrary. It is your god who is helpless to conform to what he has preconcieved. Your god is a slave to his own ability of foreknowledge.

Whats worst is that you dont even notice the vanity/futility that becomes all existence when adopting your rationals. If God knows, does and is everthing as you pretend, then the need for a propitiatory sacrifice becomes completely vaporises and the idea becomes illogical.

Is Jehovah simply telling himself a bedtime story to pass the time throught eternity?

Let me quote James 1:13-15 because it clearly isnt sinking in;

When under trial, let no one say: "I am being tried by God." For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.

You are decieved as to God's purpose and methods, not to mention His qualities.

Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

Deuteronomy 10:14

Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

1 Corinthians 10:26
For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.​

​

Psalm 51 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


(HCSB) 5 Indeed, I was guilty [when I] was born; I was sinful when my mother conceived me.

(NLV) 5 See, I was born in sin and was in sin from my very beginning.

You have a really problem with equivocation.

 

[Ben12]

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To the contrary. It is your god who is helpless to conform to what he has preconcieved. Your god is a slave to his own ability of foreknowledge.

Whats worst is that you dont even notice the vanity/futility that becomes all existence when adopting your rationals. If God knows, does and is everthing as you pretend, then the need for a propitiatory sacrifice becomes completely vaporises and the idea becomes illogical.

Is Jehovah simply telling himself a bedtime story to pass the time throught eternity?

Let me quote James 1:13-15 because it clearly isnt sinking in;

When under trial, let no one say: "I am being tried by God." For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.

You are decieved as to God's purpose and methods, not to mention His qualities.



You have a really problem with equivocation.

Thank you for using scripture; I think this is a first. We all sin; no one said we didn't. I was born in sin; I will die and sin; I whole being is shaped by the sin nature that was given to me by Adam. Is this not what we are speaking about. I am not accusing God for my sin; I am declaring the sin nature happened because of His sovereign hand; not little Adams.

 

[]RiSeN[]

Thank you for using scripture; I think this is a first.

I used 4 scriptures in post #10, none of which you adressed. All of them describing why it is impossible for God to do the things you claim He has.

I am not accusing God for my sin; I am declaring the sin nature happened because of His sovereign hand; not little Adams.

And i have been showing you that the bible refutes your claim.

Adam had freewill. Had he not, God would only have needed to point out the tree of knowledge to keep the plan you claim he had moving forward. Yet this is not what God did. God warned Adam NOT to touch the tree. For you to be correct in your view God would also now have to be a hypocrite.

Your going from bad to worst with this.

 

[armothe]

God put you here for a purpose against your will.

I suppose then, if I committed suicide - I'd be that much more powerful than God. But I suppose the Calvinist would simply explain that it was God who pulled the trigger; leaving us with nothing more than a conundrum as to what His will truly is.

What's more soverign:

- A king who is constantly directing and forcing his subjects to perform both good and evil acts for the purpose of accomplishing his will.

- A king who pursuades his subjects to do his will through the unconditional love he demonstrates for them.

-A

 

[Ben12]

I suppose then, if I committed suicide - I'd be that much more powerful than God. But I suppose the Calvinist would simply explain that it was God who pulled the trigger; leaving us with nothing more than a conundrum as to what His will truly is.

What's more soverign:

- A king who is constantly directing and forcing his subjects to perform both good and evil acts for the purpose of accomplishing his will.

- A king who pursuades his subjects to do his will through the unconditional love he demonstrates for them.

-A

I am sure you could come with thousands of example; He is still God.

 

[Ben12]

I used 4 scriptures in post #10, none of which you adressed. All of them describing why it is impossible for God to do the things you claim He has.




And i have been showing you that the bible refutes your claim.

Adam had freewill. Had he not, God would only have needed to point out the tree of knowledge to keep the plan you claim he had moving forward. Yet this is not what God did. God warned Adam NOT to touch the tree. For you to be correct in your view God would also now have to be a hypocrite.

Your going from bad to worst with this.

What a bunch nonsense; show me Adam's freewill; no such word in scripture when it somes to Adam or salvation.. Yes God wanted Adam with total and complete knowlegde Adam would fall.

Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.


(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have