God ordained sin? [split from Adam/Eve thread in Origins]

[Ben12]

I believe Adam and Eve were created to fall; it was God desire that they fall because they made in His image; in Genesis 1. Later in Genesis 2 God changed them and made them a living soul; (in other word set them up for the fall). God never desired innocence as a characteristic for a son of God in other words robots or puppets. What he desired is what happened at the end of the Bible. Overcomers. In a sense when speaking of Adam and Eve it is the whole race; but at the same time we are all individuals.

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)​

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.​

​

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

​

 

[Ben12]

So much is spoke about Adam as dust or a living soul; but look a little closer.

There are two Adams per say in the Genesis; many see the flesh Adam but few see the Spirit. Like all things in scripture God hides his deep and awesome Word from the wise and reveals them to those who have an open childlike spirit; which is not the same as a childish or immature spirit.

If God created Adam a perfect spiritual being with no defects which He did in Genesis 1, Adam would not of fallen; but in Genesis 2 God changed Adam’s nature to the dust of the earth etc. With out the fall Adam would have just like many you disagree with ; a puppet. God desires obedience more then sacrifice; this takes a process of (SPIRITUAL) growth; that is why we are here.

Matt 25:25-26 (NLT) 25 At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike.

The soul is the mind the intellect and the reason. The spirit is that part of God in all of us for we were made in His image and his likeness
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them; notice later Eve had to be separated from Adams flesh; but as a spiritual being like God they were one.
Later in Genesis 2 God made man a living soul
Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Jesus got a glorified body; not flesh.

Our spirit returns to God; our soul is in need of change.


No corrupt and dying blood flowed in the veins of these inhabitants of Paradise. No death-dealing carnal mind corrupted them to bring their members under the power of death and sin. They lived in a realm long since closed to the human race. They were clothed upon not with garments of wool and cotton or even seamless robes, but, because of their heavenly brightness and their blessed communion with God, they lived in a realm of transfiguration and were no more in need of earthly garments than an angel. All creatures of that perfumed, effulgent paradise were under their wise and loving control. No timid creature raced in terror from snarling ravenous beasts. The pitiful cry of a dying thing was never heard. Peace reigned supreme and love without alloy. Had this blessed son in his unfallen state walked the earth centuries later, he, too, would have stilled the waves, raised the dead, and healed diseases as did Christ, the last Adam. But this was not God's plan. George Hawtin

God wanted/ordained Adam to sin; so that God’s people will be changed/mature and grow.

When Adam fell from God’s grace in The Garden of Eden; He fell from a place of grace and became as a beast or flesh (same as the Beast or it’s mark in Book of Revelations). Adam was a son of God; just like Jesus who is the second Adam. Religion looks for answers everywhere they can find them, be it the natural world, human history or tradition. The answer to the Bible is the Bible; just got to let the Spirit of Truth open the mystery; then it is no longer a mystery.

I might add, the word breath or cool; same word as in Genesis 3:8 according to Strong’s

OT:7307: ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):

 

[gluadys]

So much is spoke about Adam as dust or a living soul; but look a little closer.

There are two Adams per say in the Genesis; many see the flesh Adam but few see the Spirit.

No, I don't agree with this. Just because Genesis gives us two stories of creation, it doesn't mean Adam was created twice.

If God created Adam a perfect spiritual being

He didn't. Neither creation story suggests that Adam was only a spiritual being or that his spiritual nature was created separately from his physical nature.

Jesus got a glorified body; not flesh.

Jesus himself says otherwise.

"Touch me and see; for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.

Luke 24:39

 

[Ben12]

No, I don't agree with this. Just because Genesis gives us two stories of creation, it doesn't mean Adam was created twice.

He didn't. Neither creation story suggests that Adam was only a spiritual being or that his spiritual nature was created separately from his physical nature.

Jesus himself says otherwise.
"Touch me and see; for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.
Luke 24:39

No one said that Adam was created twice; what I said was God changed his nature; from a pure spiritual being too a soulish, fleshly being. In other words God set Adam up for the fall. I disagree; there are differently two different aspects of Adam Character being done in Genesis; as I just pointed out. I find this amazing you cannot see the spirit aspect of Adam (created in God’s Image (Genesis 1).

Let me ask you a question. When Adam was created in God’s Image in Genesis 1; are you saying God was also flesh; so Adam is flesh became flesh like God? Or perhaps God is a soul so Adam became made in living soul like God? Are you saying Adam does not have a spirit? His physical nature did not happen until Genesis two; if this was not the case all of these characteristic would be bunch together; but they are totally separate.

When speaking of Jesus body being flesh you are just touching on the subject with one verse; there is a lot more to this subject and would take more then your one verse to explain it.

 

[gluadys]

No one said that Adam was created twice; what I said was God changed his nature; from a pure spiritual being too a soulish, fleshly being.

The text does not support that. Nowhere does scripture say that Adam's nature was changed before the Fall.

When Adam was created in God’s Image in Genesis 1; are you saying God was also flesh;

No, God is not flesh and God the Son did not become flesh before the Incarnation.

Or perhaps God is a soul so Adam became made in living soul like God?

No, God is not a soul either. God is a spirit.

Adam, on the other hand, is flesh, soul and spirit.

His physical nature did not happen until Genesis two;

The second creation story is printed on paper after the first creation story, because on a printed page one must come before the other. But it is not a story that happens after the first story. Both stories are referring to the one and only creation of humanity as a flesh/spirit/soul being--just from a different perspective.

IOW Gen. 1:26 does not take place before Gen. 2:7. They both take place at the same time. They are exactly the same event, seen from different angles. Like in a film where the director puts in a flashback showing the same event over again but through the eyes of a different person. You see different things from different perspectives.

if this was not the case all of these characteristic would be bunch together;

They are.

When speaking of Jesus body being flesh you are just touching on the subject with one verse;

It only took one verse to show your statement was false. Or do you think it is permissible to pick and choose which parts of scripture you believe and which you don't?

there is a lot more to this subject and would take more then your one verse to explain it.

No doubt, but any explanation has to include Jesus' statement that his resurrection body was flesh and bones.

 

[Ben12]

Sorry having some problem with posting

The text does support what I am saying; you are trying to literalize Genesis into some preconceived dogma; instead of seeking the depths of scripture. God’s Word is not literal, it is spirit and life. Revelation is the most spiritual book in scripture and Genesis; I will put a second place. You have no idea the time period that Adam walked with God in the cool (Spirit) of the day. Genesis 1 happened all on the sixth day and before; Genesis 2 happened on the seventh day; TOTALLY DIFFERENT DAY…. this could of happened over thousands of years; only God knows.

Genesis 1: 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (look he created Eve here and latter took a rib from Adam)
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
TOTALLY NEW DAY......Seventh DAY
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

Notice it was a total different day God created man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

 

[gluadys]

The text does support what I am saying; you are trying to literalize Genesis into some preconceived dogma;

LOL That's a new one. Usually I am reprimanded for not taking the text literally.

Genesis 2 happened on the seventh day; TOTALLY DIFFERENT DAY….

Nope. It happened "in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens..." Gen. 2:4b

 

[shernren]

I always thought God rested on the seventh day. Maybe He took up pottery as a hobby?

 

[Ben12]

LOL That's a new one. Usually I am reprimanded for not taking the text literally.



Nope. It happened "in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens..." Gen. 2:4b

Which one the day God made Adam in is image (6th day) or the seventh day where God changed the nature of Adam to fall.

 

[]RiSeN[]

I believe Adam and Eve were created to fall; it was God desire that they fall because they made in His image; in Genesis 1. Later in Genesis 2 God changed them and made them a living soul; (in other word set them up for the fall). God never desired innocence as a characteristic for a son of God in other words robots or puppets. What he desired is what happened at the end of the Bible. Overcomers. In a sense when speaking of Adam and Eve it is the whole race; but at the same time we are all individuals.

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)​

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.​

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.



​

Too bad none of your ideas gel with what God tells us in His written word.

"His activity is dignity and splendor themselves.And his righteousness is standing forever." - Ps 111:3

"The Rock, perfect is his activity,For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he." - Deut 32:4

"He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love" - 1John 4:8

And the list goes on...

Your idea that God predestined all of mans afflictions is completly unbiblical and contrary to God's qualities.

A clear example is in the case of Job. Satan even attempted to trick God into causing Job's affliction, yet, Jehovah said to Satan;
"Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only against him himself do not thrust out your hand!"

Who caused all of Job's woes? Satan, not God.

"When under trial, let no one say: "I am being tried by God." For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.

Do not be misled, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect present is from above, for it comes down from the Father of the [celestial] lights, and with him there is not a variation of the turning of the shadow." - James 1:13-17

 

[gluadys]

Which one the day God made Adam in is image (6th day) or the seventh day where God changed the nature of Adam to fall.

God did not change Adam's nature. Sin changed Adam's nature.

 

[Ben12]

Too bad none of your ideas gel with what God tells us in His written word.

"His activity is dignity and splendor themselves.And his righteousness is standing forever." - Ps 111:3

"The Rock, perfect is his activity,For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he." - Deut 32:4

"He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love" - 1John 4:8

And the list goes on...

Your idea that God predestined all of mans afflictions is completly unbiblical and contrary to God's qualities.

A clear example is in the case of Job. Satan even attempted to trick God into causing Job's affliction, yet, Jehovah said to Satan;
"Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only against him himself do not thrust out your hand!"

Who caused all of Job's woes? Satan, not God.

"When under trial, let no one say: "I am being tried by God." For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.

Do not be misled, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect present is from above, for it comes down from the Father of the [celestial] lights, and with him there is not a variation of the turning of the shadow." - James 1:13-17

I love people like you; let us start with Job; just like the Jews in Jesus day; stuck on their tradition. Satan is nothing but a tool in the hands of an all powerful God and Satan has no power unless God ordained it. Look at Job it was God who inquired to Satan; it was God who had a hedge to protect Job. It was God who inquired to Satan what about my servant Job.

God was already pleased with Job, but he had a plan that would make Job even better. Job was a perfect man, but his perfection needed to be tested. Job said, "God knoweth the way that I take, and when He hath tried me I shall come forth as gold. For HE performeth the thing that is appointed for me, and many such things are with Him." Job 23:10 & 14. God has prepared a special kind of testing for each individual. In Job 32.13, Elihu said, "God thrusteth Job down, and not man." We can well add, "And not Satan, either!" God takes the full responsibility for every person's fall. These are parts of His ways. All negative forces are as a dog on a leash. They can only do what they are allowed to do by the Hand that holds the leash. The perplexities, the trials, the testings, the pressures and the failures are all God's responsibility and it will all be worked into our good.
It has been well said that "four walls do not a prison make," When we submit to the God of the circumstance instead of to the circumstance itself, then we can know the meaning of genuine freedom and peace. Are the silences of God comfortable to you, or are they frustrating? if you feel secure in the knowledge of what God is really like, then you will be able to accept God's apparent disinterest as part of His ways. Zephaniah 3:17 says, "The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty, He will save, He will rejoice over thee with joy; He will (literally) be silent in His love."

I do not believe it was me who wrote the below scripture; I repeat?

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)​

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also thoughthe obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.​

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

And then we always have good old Romans 8; I did not write these scriptures either? ​

Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.


(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

And let us not forget God planned a savior before He had a sinner..

1 Peter 1:19but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you


Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Ben12]

God did not change Adam's nature. Sin changed Adam's nature.

Is God not all knowing; such a thing as sin, death, the fall could happen without God’s total approval. This fall effected God’s total creation; are you saying this HUGH calamity happened without God’s approval ; God is not so mortal.

God had a savior before He had a sinner for the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth. In other words it was the beginning of God’s plan for humanity. Without a sinner there is no need for a savior; God wants mature overcoming sons; not innocence. (My three year old grandson is innocent and there is not anything more dangerous then a innocent child near something like traffic) The first Adam was innocent; the last Adam overcame all things.

It was God’s choose Adam to sin because God has a greater plan. If God did not ordain Adam and Eves sin; then He is not all knowing. So according to what you are telling me God s is not: omnipotent, having virtually unlimited authority or influence; because if He has limited authority and cannot deal with something He did not plan; so He can only allow?

Nor could God be omniscience all knowledge; to all things; because He did not plan Adam’s sin/fall as well as death which decided only after the fall all He could do was curse man and hope for the best; this whole issue is just to out of control.

Nor could He be omniscient having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight 2 :possessed of universal or complete knowledge. He was just so unaware of Adam and Eve’s fall/sin that effected all humanity; BILLIONS; God just did not know or see this coming?? That Devil has just gotten too big and evil more powerful then God’s good? Is that the case?

 

[gluadys]

This fall effected God’s total creation; are you saying this HUGH calamity happened without God’s approval ;

Yes, though not without his foreknowledge.

God had a savior before He had a sinner for the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth. In other words it was the beginning of God’s plan for humanity.

Forewarned is forearmed. Yes, God had a plan to redeem humanity before humanity needed to be redeemed.

It was God’s choose Adam to sin because God has a greater plan.

It was God's choice to create Adam knowing Adam would sin and knowing that humanity would need a redemption that required the life of his Son.

He did not have to change Adam's nature, nor did he change Adam's nature. But he was prepared to deal with Adam's sin before Adam sinned.

If God did not ordain Adam and Eves sin; then He is not all knowing.

Nonsense. To know something is not the same thing as either ordaining or approving it.

 

[]RiSeN[]

I love people like you; let us start with Job; just like the Jews in Jesus day; stuck on their tradition.

"Pride is before a crash, and a haughty spirit before stumbling." -Prov 16:18

First of all, if this is to be a discussion you should have the respect to answer my points and scriptures which have cast light on your wanting theories. Otherwise if you continue on simply rehashing and offering up mantra what your doing is no more than a rant, with which you attempt to disguise as prophesy.

Second, what you discribed as 'stuck in tradition' is actually what John reffers to as standing fast in the truth.(John 8:42-47) You speak according to your own disposition.

Satan is nothing but a tool in the hands of an all powerful God and Satan has no power unless God ordained it. Look at Job it was God who inquired to Satan; it was God who had a hedge to protect Job. It was God who inquired to Satan what about my servant Job.

You obviously did not read the scripture in James, for if you had and understood it, you would no longer be using the idea that Jehovah uses Satan as a tool, nor can He be any part of evil. You conjured this idea using half-truths.

God was already pleased with Job, but he had a plan that would make Job even better. Job was a perfect man, but his perfection needed to be tested. Job said, "God knoweth the way that I take, and when He hath tried me I shall come forth as gold. For HE performeth the thing that is appointed for me, and many such things are with Him." Job 23:10 & 14. God has prepared a special kind of testing for each individual.

Again, your implied ideas are not shared by what James says about Jehovah in the bible. And Job was not perfect, not in an absolute way.

In Job 32.13, Elihu said, "God thrusteth Job down, and not man." We can well add, "And not Satan, either!" God takes the full responsibility for every person's fall. These are parts of His ways. All negative forces are as a dog on a leash. They can only do what they are allowed to do by the Hand that holds the leash. The perplexities, the trials, the testings, the pressures and the failures are all God's responsibility and it will all be worked into our good.
It has been well said that "four walls do not a prison make," When we submit to the God of the circumstance instead of to the circumstance itself, then we can know the meaning of genuine freedom and peace. Are the silences of God comfortable to you, or are they frustrating? if you feel secure in the knowledge of what God is really like, then you will be able to accept God's apparent disinterest as part of His ways. Zephaniah 3:17 says, "The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty, He will save, He will rejoice over thee with joy; He will (literally) be silent in His love."

I do not believe it was me who wrote the below scripture; I repeat?​

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)

​

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also thoughthe obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.​

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

And then we always have good old Romans 8; I did not write these scriptures either?

​

Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.


(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

And let us not forget God planned a savior before He had a sinner..

1 Peter 1:19but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you


Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. [/quote]

Im not going to adress these until you adress my rebuttle and even then there is no need to.

 

[Ben12]

Yes, though not without his foreknowledge.



Forewarned is forearmed. Yes, God had a plan to redeem humanity before humanity needed to be redeemed.



It was God's choice to create Adam knowing Adam would sin and knowing that humanity would need a redemption that required the life of his Son.

He did not have to change Adam's nature, nor did he change Adam's nature. But he was prepared to deal with Adam's sin before Adam sinned.



Nonsense. To know something is not the same thing as either ordaining or approving it.

So you are saying that the fall of Adam without God’s approval; but His foreknowledge. Well I guess Roman 8 and Ps 90 must be a total lie because it declares God subjected creation to the curse (Forced creation). If God foreknew something and willed it then are you saying He is helpless and cannot control circumstances He has all ready knows. Below Romans 8 declares the creature (all creation) was MADE SUBJECT to vanity NOTWILLINGLY.

Psalm 90: 1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.3Thou turnest man to destruction; (It was God who ordained Adams fall) and sayest, Return, ye children of men.


Please give me a verse that shows me that God did not approve of the fall; I have given you two verses to the contrary; your opinions mean nothing without SCRIPTURE?

Romans 8: 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Main Entry: 1 a: to bring under control or dominion : subjugate b: to make (as oneself) amenable to the discipline and control of a superior2: to make liable : predispose3: to cause or force to undergo or endure (something unpleasant, inconvenient, or trying) <was subjected to constant verbal abuse>

Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God&#8217;s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God&#8217;s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

 

[Ben12]

]RiSeN[ vbmenu_register("postmenu_43759806", true);

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (KJV)

1 Sam 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
(KJV)

1 Sam 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the (KJV)

 

[gluadys]

Please give me a verse that shows me that God did not approve of the fall; I have given you two verses to the contrary; your opinions mean nothing without SCRIPTURE?

Actually you have not shown me any.

Ps. 90:3 The word which the KJV translators render here as "destruction" is the Hebrew 'dakka' which actually means "dust" and is so translated in most English bibles. In the KJV it is also rendered as "contrite" in the two other places it is used.

As for Romans 8:20, this refers to the subjection of creation consequent to the fall. Whereas Adam brought the consequences of the fall upon himself through his own will, creation did not sin and so was subjected by the decree of God and not by its own will.

In any case, the reference is to the fall, not to the pre-fall state of creation.

 

[Ben12]

Actually you have not shown me any.

Ps. 90:3 The word which the KJV translators render here as "destruction" is the Hebrew 'dakka' which actually means "dust" and is so translated in most English bibles. In the KJV it is also rendered as "contrite" in the two other places it is used.

As for Romans 8:20, this refers to the subjection of creation consequent to the fall. Whereas Adam brought the consequences of the fall upon himself through his own will, creation did not sin and so was subjected by the decree of God and not by its own will.

In any case, the reference is to the fall, not to the pre-fall state of creation.

Talk about spin "consequent to the fall"; no Romans is very clear as well as Ps 90; you are adding words to prove your point as well as spining the verse. No God subjected creation; nothing except your spin in these verse about "consequent to the fall". Nothing was said about "Adam brought the consequences of the fall upon himself" those are your words....

So are you saying Adam has a greater will the God; show me?

So where is your scripture seeing you have done everything possible to twist and turn God's Word towards your bias.

 

[gluadys]

No God subjected creation; nothing except your spin in these verse about "consequent to the fall".

Read in context, Paul clearly connects the subjection of creation to the introduction of sin into the world.

So are you saying Adam has a greater will the God; show me?

Not a greater will, but the free will God chose to give him. God did not make Adam to be an automaton.