God only loves you if you believe it?

[luckswallows]

I'm no Christian but Christians out there can correct me if I'm wrong:

The Christian God, if he exists, loves absolutely everyone, right?

In a word he is: Omnibenevolent.

 

[Hazelelponi]

This may sound like a strange question but this is exactly what it sounds like when evangelists try to explain faith to an unbeliever. All in all I'd have to say the quality of evangelism has been getting dramatically worse over the centuries.

If they are seeking God then it ought to be pretty obvious that they are not willfully rejecting him. There are plenty of other things for a worldly person to be doing like watching a show, going to a party, or literally anything that doesn't bring their deepest loneliness and pain to the surface. A great number are not asking you about God as an intellectual exercise or to somehow "crush" you in debate. They are asking you because they recognize a hole in their lives.

So when you tell an unbeliever "stop rebelling and choose Christ now!" what you are actually telling them is that they need to somehow immediately re-wire all the confusion in their minds or pray to God to re-wire their minds. Then when it doesn't happen they have an anxiety attack. Some will be able to do that but most who are addressed this way will never speak to you again. They don't think they are rebelling. Maybe they are but they are definitely not aware of it.

There is another product of this maligned interaction: the belief that Christianity is an exclusive club. Only those with the natural capacity to immediately believe the gospel will enter heaven. Indeed ONLY this particular variant of human is loved by God at any level whatsoever.

The end result is they either go totally mad and die or give up on seeking Christ and look for some other spiritual path. There is no other way for them to respond when hearing the gospel explained in this manner.

How did this happen? Whatever happened to "Jesus will accept you as you are"?

It is very easy to trust a Jesus who is extending his hand to pull you from the storm.

It is very hard to trust a Jesus who is standing on the boat and asking you "do you believe I will extend my hand to you? If not I'm turning this boat around right now."

Which is it?

There is no right now about salvation.. you learn and pray and search until you understand..

I didn't understand salvation at all for a long time. I could understand the Christian God and even desired Him for my God. But salvation was beyond me so i stood on the outside..

No one pushed me, no one pressured me. One day I got it. God met me where I was and I finally understood and could actually believe, that saving kind of belief where when you proclaim Jesus as Lord you mean it.

Everyone has their own road to get there, and a limited time as we are mortal. Yet God won't allow us to fall to the wayside if we are truly seeking His Face / knowledge of Him.

God is God, He knows the hearts and souls of man, and not just man - but you.

And this, in this patient and perfect understanding there is peace, and yes, there is certainty of our salvation.

Sometimes we simply rest in His promises, but when we know God, we know He's good for it.

People are imperfect, but God isn't.

 

[DarkSoul999]

And how did you determine that it was God's will for you to aid this man as you did?

I don't have the slightest idea what I'm doing. I was asking myself "I keep bumping into this guy in different situations and different locations. I wonder if there is a reason for this?"

The Bible tells us that few find the narrow road that leads to life. Did God fail, then, in his redemption of humanity? Were His efforts to save sinners from themselves a "flop"? In spite of what Christ did on the cross, people still go to hell. Scripture, though, does not indicate that what Christ did was a failure. In spite of the fact that not everyone ends up in heaven, Christ's atonement for our sin on the cross was an incredible victory! There's a lesson, perhaps, for you in this. Maybe giving to this man wasn't about him getting better but about you being obedient and charitable. It's possible that you are still in the process of learning to trust God whatever happens. We simply can't see all that God is doing. He is working on a level far beyond our comprehension and so we must "walk by faith" with Him, and not by appearances. We know always, however, that in everything in life God intends we should be working toward being more like Jesus. So, how's that going? In this "flop" you've described, are you seeking to be more like Christ?

That is a pretty good point. It isn't really possible for us to determine what the bigger plan is. I just wish I knew the reason for why I am a magnet for misery and destruction basically no matter what I do.

To be honest I've given up on trying to be like Christ because I'm too much of a loser to properly imitate 0.0000000000001% of Christ. I read through the list of the fruits of the Holy Spirit and I'm like "yep I just flopped all of those up". I just try to be useful because there is a chance that others might be worth far more than me and have a good chance of being saved. Maybe he cares about some of them I don't know.

You have placed yourself entirely too much in the center of this situation. The center is where God should be, not you. God wants you to be a vessel, a tool, in and through whom He can accomplish His - not your - will in the world. You have done what you could do; leave the rest to God and be content with having been faithful in doing what you believed God wanted you to do. The results of your efforts are God's business; He will do whatever He pleases with what you've done. Are you willing for this to be? Or is God obliged to do something really remarkable with your efforts? If you think He is, you misunderstand profoundly what it means to be a "vessel meet for the Master's use."

He might do something important with what I did. But I'm still going to burn in Hell because I won't know that he is doing it. Hence the title of this thread "God only loves you if you believe it".

Whether or not your life is over is God's decision, not yours. Your "job" is to remain in full and humble dependence upon Him. As you do, He will use you as He sees fit. It's what He made you for.

And we are not able to mess that up? Sure seems like I do absolutely nothing correctly...

You have an eternity with God to live after your brief stint on this globe. Why, then, are you fretting about your "prime" years passing by? Your "prime" years are yet to come! And they will be endless in number!

I fully expect to go to Hell. I don't meet any of the necessary criteria for salvation. So Hell on this Earth and then Hell forever. The only good news is that I'm so socially isolated that basically nobody will even care.

Colossians 3:2-4
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory

.

It is hard to think about a place that you have almost no chance of ever seeing.

 

[ToBeLoved]

So when you tell an unbeliever "stop rebelling and choose Christ now!" what you are actually telling them is that they need to somehow immediately re-wire all the confusion in their minds or pray to God to re-wire their minds. Then when it doesn't happen they have an anxiety attack. Some will be able to do that but most who are addressed this way will never speak to you again. They don't think they are rebelling. Maybe they are but they are definitely not aware of it.

I do think you have a point here about evangelizing as Christians.

Many people do approach it this way saying something like "stop rebelling and choose Christ now!" and you are right that it is not a very good way, because what that does is not make the person we are talking to feel like an individual with their own questions or problems, but in a way acts like their is this generic way to speak to most people about God.

But I am here to say that if that is what you have been hearing, they either know no better way or they are saying what they have heard other people say when speaking to non-Christians and maybe they think it is a good way because someone else has done it that way.

So, I'm not going to say that to you, but what questions do you have about God? I will try my best to answer and listen to your concerns or questions with respect.

 

[luckswallows]

I fully expect to go to Hell. I don't meet any of the necessary criteria for salvation. So Hell on this Earth and then Hell forever. The only good news is that I'm so socially isolated that basically nobody will even care.

I think it's very tragic that you believe this. But what makes you think that you are deserving of Hell, or that such a place even exists?

I should probably also ask: Do you believe in a literal interpretation of Hell?

 

[DarkSoul999]

I think it's very tragic that you believe this. But what makes you think that you are deserving of Hell, or that such a place even exists?

I should probably also ask: Do you believe in a literal interpretation of Hell?

I believe that curses exist because everything in my life is cursed. If something happens often enough then it constitutes an attribute of nature. That is why I avoid getting to close to people. The closer I get to someone the more misfortune enters into their lives.

I don't know if Hell exists but if it does then I'm just about unlucky enough to end up there.

 

[DarkSoul999]

I do think you have a point here about evangelizing as Christians.

Many people do approach it this way saying something like "stop rebelling and choose Christ now!" and you are right that it is not a very good way, because what that does is not make the person we are talking to feel like an individual with their own questions or problems, but in a way acts like their is this generic way to speak to most people about God.

But I am here to say that if that is what you have been hearing, they either know no better way or they are saying what they have heard other people say when speaking to non-Christians and maybe they think it is a good way because someone else has done it that way.

So, I'm not going to say that to you, but what questions do you have about God? I will try my best to answer and listen to your concerns or questions with respect.

Why does God let babies die from cancer while a useful piece of garbage like me continues to breath air? They had so much potential and I have zero.

 

[luckswallows]

I believe that curses exist because everything in my life is cursed. If something happens often enough then it constitutes an attribute of nature. That is why I avoid getting to close to people. The closer I get to someone the more misfortune enters into their lives.

I don't know if Hell exists but if it does then I'm just about unlucky enough to end up there.

How many coincidences does it take for it to no longer be a matter of coincidences?

 

[ToBeLoved]

There is another product of this maligned interaction: the belief that Christianity is an exclusive club. Only those with the natural capacity to immediately believe the gospel will enter heaven. Indeed ONLY this particular variant of human is loved by God at any level whatsoever.

The end result is they either go totally mad and die or give up on seeking Christ and look for some other spiritual path. There is no other way for them to respond when hearing the gospel explained in this manner.

Well, Christianity is most certainly not an exclusive club, I can say that, that must be the perception because we all do regard each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. But as in any loving family, there are squabbles about doctrine or beliefs or differences, just as in a regular family one person may be a republican, another a democrat, and another may not vote or care about politics at all.

What does help is when someone who is seeking comes to us or a Christian in general with a specific question or problem, because the more specific the situation or question, the more in depth we can get and the closer we can get to answering or getting to the real question someone has.

 

[luckswallows]

Why does God let babies die from cancer while a useful piece of garbage like me continues to breath air? They had so much potential and I have zero.

I think the usual Christian response to this is that God has some sort of complex divine plan and he must have his own compassionate and justified reasons, and we cannot know the mind of God. Some people shorten this as "God's mysterious ways".

The only other response to the problem of evil, from the Christian perspective, that I know of, besides that, is that evil doesn't exist in and of itself.... as evil is merely the absence of goodness. Rather than anything that exists in itself.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Why does God let babies die from cancer while a useful piece of garbage like me continues to breath air? They had so much potential and I have zero.

I'll try to answer the best I know how and stay Biblical as I can.

When sin entered the world, the bodies that God first created Adam and Eve with became corruptable, being that they would then experience disease, wear out because God deemed that mankind would only live a certain number of years upon the earth.

God does not 'let' bad things happen, per se or want bad things to happen, but in giving us (human beings) free will, He allowed the natural decay of our bodies or consequences that happen to happen. This can mean that sometimes a baby's body will form and that body will have something physically wrong with it or a disease that makes that body unable to sustain life for a long time, as a full life can be 80 years or more.

But that does not mean that God Himself caused that thing to happen or even that God wanted that thing to happen. But just that that is what happened with that particular human being and their body.

The other part of your question is why does God let you live? I don't think God lets any of us live, He just doesn't interfere. So you may have been blessed with a good body, one that can sustain your life.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[DarkSoul999]

How many coincidences does it take for it to no longer be a matter of coincidences?

It's not a matter of numbers or percentages. If I could get close to ONE person without finding out they just died in a freak accident that would be great step in the right direction.

 

[DarkSoul999]

I think the usual Christian response to this is that God has some sort of complex divine plan and he must have his own compassionate and justified reasons, and we cannot know the mind of God. Some people shorten this as "God's mysterious ways".

The only other response to the problem of evil, from the Christian perspective, that I know of, besides that, is that evil doesn't exist in and of itself.... as evil is merely the absence of goodness. Rather than anything that exists in itself.

What is interesting is that the Bible has exactly the opposite explanation. Most Christians in the west don't even bother reading it. You have to visit a church or go on the internet to find those who aren't incredibly lazy and fraudulent.

 

[DarkSoul999]

I'll try to answer the best I know how and stay Biblical as I can.

When sin entered the world, the bodies that God first created Adam and Eve with became corruptable, being that they would then experience disease, wear out because God deemed that mankind would only live a certain number of years upon the earth.

God does not 'let' bad things happen, per se or want bad things to happen, but in giving us (human beings) free will, He allowed the natural decay of our bodies or consequences that happen to happen. This can mean that sometimes a baby's body will form and that body will have something physically wrong with it or a disease that makes that body unable to sustain life for a long time, as a full life can be 80 years or more.

But that does not mean that God Himself caused that thing to happen or even that God wanted that thing to happen. But just that that is what happened with that particular human being and their body.

The other part of your question is why does God let you live? I don't think God lets any of us live, He just doesn't interfere. So you may have been blessed with a good body, one that can sustain your life.

I hope this makes sense.

I've heard the theodicy argument a thousand times. Yes I understand that humanity caused all this. I get it. What I don't understand is why it is so easy for anyone to create evil and almost impossible to create good. I have almost no chance of curing cancer unless someone gives me a 250k loan for medical school. Meanwhile, absolutely any freak can go buy a $5 knife and murder a baby. Evil is just absolutely dominant in this world!

I wish I had been born with severe brain damage and profound retardation. It's not like my current brain has generated efforts which cannot be replicated by others. There are lots of other people who can do what I do better. So I should have been born with less. Then I wouldn't have all this psychological torment, unanswerable questions, a life filled with grime and chaos, and a high probability of spending an eternity in Hell. I'm not blessed.

 

[luckswallows]

What is interesting is that the Bible has exactly the opposite explanation. Most Christians in the west don't even bother reading it. You have to visit a church or go on the internet to find those who aren't incredibly lazy and fraudulent.

What do you think is the true biblical explanation?

 

[ToBeLoved]

What is interesting is that the Bible has exactly the opposite explanation. Most Christians in the west don't even bother reading it. You have to visit a church or go on the internet to find those who aren't incredibly lazy and fraudulent.

I'll hook you up with my church's website. Verse by verse expository teaching twice a week and we post the audio and a pdf worksheet for each sermon. You will know the Bible better in 6 mos than many Christians.

I'm very particular and you'll learn a lot, can I send you a private message through CF?

 

[DarkSoul999]

I'll hook you up with my church's website. Verse by verse expository teaching twice a week and we post the audio and a pdf worksheet for each sermon. You will know the Bible better in 6 mos than many Christians.

I'm very particular and you'll learn a lot, can I send you a private message through CF?

sure

 

[aiki]

I'm no Christian but Christians out there can correct me if I'm wrong:

The Christian God, if he exists, loves absolutely everyone, right?

In a word he is: Omnibenevolent.

No, God is not omnibenevolent. There is one thing He hates: sin. And where does sin come from? Sinners. So, although God loves the world and sent His Son to die for it, there will come a time for every person when they will stand before their Maker either as His child or as an unrepentant sinner. If one stands before Him as the latter sort, it will be God's holy justice one will face, not the loving embrace of the Saviour.

Romans 2:4-9
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

 

[aiki]

I don't have the slightest idea what I'm doing. I was asking myself "I keep bumping into this guy in different situations and different locations. I wonder if there is a reason for this?"

I see. It's clearer now why things might not have turned out well. Your heart was in the right place, though, and God sees that it was.

That is a pretty good point. It isn't really possible for us to determine what the bigger plan is. I just wish I knew the reason for why I am a magnet for misery and destruction basically no matter what I do.

Not even the Son of God escaped misery when he walked on this earth. He suffered terribly during his time among us. "Man is born to trouble like sparks fly upward," the Bible says. This was true for Christ and it will be true, sooner or later, for us all. But in good times and bad, God will use everything to make us more like Jesus - if we let Him. No miserable circumstance is without value, then, if through it we learn to be more like Jesus.

To be honest I've given up on trying to be like Christ because I'm too much of a loser to properly imitate 0.0000000000001% of Christ.

Welcome to the club. The truth is none of us on our own can ever be like Christ. Like begets like. We can only beget more of ourselves. If we want to be godly as Christ was, God will have to make us so. And that transformation begins when we realize that we can't be who God wants us to be. When we truly understand this, we stop trying to do for God and finally let Him do for us.

I read through the list of the fruits of the Holy Spirit and I'm like "yep I just flopped all of those up".

That's because they are the Fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of you. You can't produce such fruit by yourself. The Fruit of the Spirit only comes from the Spirit. And that fruit appears in one's life when one stops trying to make it appear by dint of one's own effort and surrenders to, and depends fully upon, the Spirit to manifest His fruit in one's character and living.

I just try to be useful because there is a chance that others might be worth far more than me and have a good chance of being saved.

You know this anchored to a lie, don't you? You are made, in the "imago dei," the image of God. You are no accident of nature. As a result, you have tremendous value. There is one, though, who would like you to think you are worthless. He's the Accuser of the brethren, the Father of Lies, the devil. Don't swallow this "I'm worthless" garbage he's been feeding you. Self-pity will only lead you to destruction.

He might do something important with what I did. But I'm still going to burn in Hell because I won't know that he is doing it. Hence the title of this thread "God only loves you if you believe it".

??? I already explained in an earlier post that God loved the World when it was at enmity with Him. God did not wait to love the World until it was lovable; He did not wait to love the World until it deserved to be loved. God loved the World when it was in utter rebellion toward Him and ignorant of what He would do through Christ to make a way of reconciliation between humanity and Himself.

Anyway, people go to hell because they sin, not because they don't know what God is doing.

And we are not able to mess that up? Sure seems like I do absolutely nothing correctly...

It's because we are all major screw-ups that God had to send His Son to die for us. Accepting this truth is the beginning of learning to walk with God. Your life isn't about you and how well you can do things, but about God and the things He can do in and through you.

I fully expect to go to Hell. I don't meet any of the necessary criteria for salvation. So Hell on this Earth and then Hell forever. The only good news is that I'm so socially isolated that basically nobody will even care.

Yeah, self-pity never looks good on anyone. The Good News of salvation is that the "criteria for salvation" was met by Christ on our behalf. All we gotta' do is believe it and yield ourselves to God's will and way. You certainly can't earn your salvation by properly meeting some "criteria."

When we are self-absorbed, isolation is often the result. When Self occupies us, we have no room for anyone else. But God can take you out of your self-interest, your self-pity, and bring you to the purposes for which He made you. He cares about you enough to die for you. So, why are you feeding yourself the lie that no one cares for you? It just ain't true.

It is hard to think about a place that you have almost no chance of ever seeing.

You have just as much chance of seeing heaven as Mother Theresa or the apostle Paul. That's because heaven isn't the reward for a life well-lived, but the blessing of trusting in Christ and through him becoming a born-again child of God.

 

[sea5763]

When Jesus was talking about how the poor old widow gave two coins to charity gave more than everyone else because she gave everything she had, he didn’t say well unless the charity is wisely spent it was wasted, He just points out that she gave more than everyone else. As for all these bad things happening to you remember that many of the characters in the Old Testament that God loved had difficult and painful lives including Jesus Christ and John the Baptist who was considered the greatest man that ever lived. You say that you’re not exhibiting any signs of being a Christian but the fact that you gave your life savings to another on Gods behalf shows that you love God more than money.