God obviously dislikes video cameras.

[mikedsjr]

Charismatics believe God still does miracles and certainly I believe he still does. I have a friend who had rough times answered by God in ways no one could have saw coming. But they were in ways that have nothing to do with miracles most people see in the New Testament.

Charismatics claim God heals, and I believe he does, but I also believe his healing touch comes mostly through physician care. I don't know of one single video of a lame person being healed, who previously were incurable by doctors, and validated by 3rd party doctors. I've never seen videos of exorcisms were demons jumped into another creature. I've never seen a single person walking down hospitals healing sick people.

So my question is does God hate video cameras so much he is unwilling to heal outside of controlled church environments? Do you believe God is unwilling to allow a pastor to walk the halls of a hospital and heal sick people where they instantly get up healed?

 

[JustAnglican]

I believe in miracles..BUT not in they way the are "advertised". God has performed them in my life using day to day objects and normal people. I spent 10 years in the charismatic movement and I'd be lying if I say I saw any manifestation of such miracles.

We have a pastor in this country who feeds people grass and make them drink petrol to prove that miracles still exist. He is missing the point though because no Christian denies miracles, we simply deny the acts of public display that do not edify anyone.

I've also noticed that the supposed miracles on TV always favor visiting congregants from other countries and none from the hosting country. I tread carefully here because I speak of what happens in South Africa.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

I have to agree that God appears to avoid publicity in the form of video taped events.

Perhaps it is just God seeks to avoid being perceived as a trained seal?

 

[now faith]

One thing,healing is not conditional on those who speak against.

Have Faith in God,not what you believe he should do to convince you to believe in.

Why don't those crazy Charismatic Preachers clean out hospitals?

Because the gift of healing is not controlled by a man,it is only as the Holy Spirit wills to manifest.

Why could Jesus do no good works in his own country?
After all he was God with us.
Same God who dwells in us today,and forever.
Mark: 6. 5. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. 6. And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching. 7. And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

And he marveled at their unbelief?
Maybe rather than blaming Preachers ,people should blame themselves.

Or do we hold Preachers today more accountable than God?

You will never see healing or any other gift from God when you speak against his ability to do so.

So in a perfect World the critic of healing should go to Hospitals themselves and step out by Faith.

If only one gets healed,through the critics faith then hopefully he would no longer be a critic but a follower of the promises of God.

 

[Biblicist]

So my question is does God hate video cameras so much he is unwilling to heal outside of controlled church environments? Do you believe God is unwilling to allow a pastor to walk the halls of a hospital and heal sick people where they instantly get up healed?

When it comes to the two Offices/Functions of Powers (aka miracles) and of Healings (1Co 12:28), they were established for the care of the members of the Body of Christ and not for the unregenerate.

It is difficult to imagine the Father desiring to have his children to walk down hospital wards as the healings would be deemed to be in the category of ‘signs and wonders’. As the unregenerate are called to respond to the Gospel with repentance, where they are to confess Christ as Lord, then this type of activity would be counter-productive.

If we move away from the world to those parts of the Church that struggle to accept the continuing power of God in today’s church, I would say that if our cessationist friends were to witness such activities, that their hearts would not be changed by God’s Word as their hearts should be, but as a result of signs alone. What did Jesus say to Thomas;

John 20:25-29 (NASB)

So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe." . . . Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." . . . Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."​

So why should unbelief be rewarded by signs?

 

[now faith]

2 Corinthians: 4. 1. Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2. But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Albion]

Charismatics believe God still does miracles and certainly I believe he still does. I have a friend who had rough times answered by God in ways no one could have saw coming. But they were in ways that have nothing to do with miracles most people see in the New Testament.

Charismatics claim God heals, and I believe he does, but I also believe his healing touch comes mostly through physician care. I don't know of one single video of a lame person being healed, who previously were incurable by doctors, and validated by 3rd party doctors. I've never seen videos of exorcisms were demons jumped into another creature. I've never seen a single person walking down hospitals healing sick people.

So my question is does God hate video cameras so much he is unwilling to heal outside of controlled church environments? Do you believe God is unwilling to allow a pastor to walk the halls of a hospital and heal sick people where they instantly get up healed?

No, I don't believe that stuff. And it's not only charismatics who believe in miracles. They merely talk about it more than other denominations.

But, if you notice, the "gifts" that are most commonly demonstrated are the ones most easily faked--speaking in unknown language-type sounds and "prophesy." Actual Healing, not being easily mimicked, is almost never witnessed (although it's often claimed as having happened "off camera.")

 

[Biblicist]

No, I don't believe that stuff. And it's not only charismatics who believe in miracles. They merely talk about it more than other denominations.

But, if you notice, the "gifts" that are most commonly demonstrated are the ones most easily faked--speaking in unknown language-type sounds and "prophesy." Actual Healing, not being easily mimicked, is almost never witnessed (although it's often claimed as having happened "off camera.")

It does seem that you are approaching the question not so much from within a theological framework but from within one that lacks the experiential knowledge of how the Spirit works in todays church.

One of the problems with saying "I will only believe if I can touch something or understand it with my mind" is that this is the same approach that Thomas took where Jesus told him that his relationship with Jesus was not so much of faith but with what he could see and rationalise.

As the Scriptures have undoubtedly not changed nor has the content of the New Covenant altered, then we need to ask ourselves why we are not observing what we see in the Bible. If we view church history during the Dark Ages then many are justified in saying "Where was God, are the Scriptures true" but that's from our perspective and not God's. Even with Israel, they went through periods of dryness where they too asked "Where is God" but things certainly change from year to year.

When it comes to the power of the Holy Spirit, nothing has changed over the years where we can find the evidence if we need to do so.

 

[Albion]

It does seem that you are approaching the question not so much from within a theological framework but from within one that lacks the experiential knowledge of how the Spirit works in todays church.

I don't consider that to be a serious criticism.

One of the problems with saying "I will only believe if I can touch something or understand it with my mind" is that this is the same approach that Thomas took where Jesus told him that his relationship with Jesus was not so much of faith but with what he could see and rationalise.

Very well, but I didn't say that.

As the Scriptures have undoubtedly not changed nor has the content of the New Covenant altered, then we need to ask ourselves why we are not observing what we see in the Bible.

I've taken all that into account, just as the rest of the great majority of Christians of almost all denominations have done.

when it comes to the power of the Holy Spirit, nothing has changed over the years where we can find the evidence if we need to do so.

Why don't you get back to me when you are ready to address the points made in the last several posts. Then we can take it from there.

 

[Biblicist]

I don't consider that to be a serious criticism.

Yes, my statement was probably a bit obtuse where I could have referred to the frequent accusation that Pentecostals and charismatics are essentially experience based. Now I can accept this charge to a certain degree, as we definitely recognise that the Christian walk is highly experiential, but we can also reverse the charge by saying the other others can be accused of basing their views on a 'lack of experience' with the operations of the Holy Spirit.

I've taken all that into account, just as the rest of the great majority of Christians of almost all denominations have done.

This places you within a dilemna in that if you wish to deny that the Spirit of God does not work in todays church as we claim he does, just as he did in the Church of the first century, then you need to explain from within the Scriptures where this was supposed to have changed.

A good example of this can be found with 1Cor 12:28

And God has placed in the church first of all

• apostles,
• second prophets,
• third teachers,
• then powers (aka miracles),
• then gifts of healing,
• of helping,
• of guidance,
• and of different kinds of tongues.

Now, as the Father has established these 8 Offices/Functions within the local congregation, where do we find the Scriptures telling us that these things have/will finish? As four of them are intensely Pneumatic as with the Offices of prophecy, powers, healings and tongues then if these roles were established for the entire church age then where's the problem?

 

[Messy]

Charismatics believe God still does miracles and certainly I believe he still does. I have a friend who had rough times answered by God in ways no one could have saw coming. But they were in ways that have nothing to do with miracles most people see in the New Testament.

Charismatics claim God heals, and I believe he does, but I also believe his healing touch comes mostly through physician care. I don't know of one single video of a lame person being healed, who previously were incurable by doctors, and validated by 3rd party doctors. I've never seen videos of exorcisms were demons jumped into another creature. I've never seen a single person walking down hospitals healing sick people.

So my question is does God hate video cameras so much he is unwilling to heal outside of controlled church environments? Do you believe God is unwilling to allow a pastor to walk the halls of a hospital and heal sick people where they instantly get up healed?

I think He loves it, but do we love it and do we dare to go into that hospital with our camera?
You've never seen those videos? Watch T.B. Joshua.

 

[Albion]

Yes, my statement was probably a bit obtuse where I could have referred to the frequent accusation that Pentecostals and charismatics are essentially experience based. Now I can accept this charge to a certain degree, as we definitely recognise that the Christian walk is highly experiential, but we can also reverse the charge by saying the other others can be accused of basing their views on a 'lack of experience' with the operations of the Holy Spirit.

Thank you. Yes, I'd say that's a fair way of looking at it.

This places you within a dilemna in that if you wish to deny that the Spirit of God does not work in todays church as we claim he does, just as he did in the Church of the first century, then you need to explain from within the Scriptures where this was supposed to have changed.

I don't see that I'm facing any dilemma at all. The Holy Spirit is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. How he moves among believers does not have to be identical from one age to another.

A good example of this can be found with 1Cor 12:28

And God has placed in the church first of all

• apostles,
• second prophets,
• third teachers,
• then powers (aka miracles),
• then gifts of healing,
• of helping,
• of guidance,
• and of different kinds of tongues

• .
  I don't see "slain in the spirit," unintelligible sounds, and lots more that Pentecostals do in the name of the Holy Spirit on that list. I don't want to start up this old range war again, but denying that some of the gifts ceased when they'd accomplished their purpose, saying that you are just a "baby Christian" and not a full one if you don't make up sounds and call them a language, claiming that such a thing is "angelic language" etc. etc. is hardly to continue what God "has placed in the church."
  
  You said, "when it comes to the power of the Holy Spirit, nothing has changed over the years," yet Pentecostals invented a lot of what sets them apart from other Christians, and only in recent decades.

 

[Biblicist]

I don't see that I'm facing any dilemma at all. The Holy Spirit is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. How he moves among believers does not have to be identical from one age to another.

When we try to parallel the Church with Israel under the Old Covenant, where the Father had to adjust the conditions of his relationship with Israel from time to time, we can then face a few obstacles where the content of the Old Testament was certainly compiled/adjusted over maybe a thousand years unlike the NT which was compiled for all time within a single generation.

I would think that most of us would agree that for the Church over the past 2000 years that there have been definite moves (both good and bad) but these often massive swings are still compelled to maintain a solid relationship with the Scriptures that were compiled during that first generation - which is what all of the denominations try to lay claim to.

The Holy Spirit will certainly move in different ways for all of us as we are each unique but he will never override the Scriptures nor would he have the need to. What applied for the Church of the first, second, third...20th & 21st centuries has never changed.

 

[now faith]

It does seem that you are approaching the question not so much from within a theological framework but from within one that lacks the experiential knowledge of how the Spirit works in todays church.

One of the problems with saying "I will only believe if I can touch something or understand it with my mind" is that this is the same approach that Thomas took where Jesus told him that his relationship with Jesus was not so much of faith but with what he could see and rationalise.

As the Scriptures have undoubtedly not changed nor has the content of the New Covenant altered, then we need to ask ourselves why we are not observing what we see in the Bible. If we view church history during the Dark Ages then many are justified in saying "Where was God, are the Scriptures true" but that's from our perspective and not God's. Even with Israel, they went through periods of dryness where they too asked "Where is God" but things certainly change from year to year.

When it comes to the power of the Holy Spirit, nothing has changed over the years where we can find the evidence if we need to do so.

Amen.

Not to be trite but I certainly do not believe God removed any of his promises,or changed.

We changed not God or his Word.

Ephesians: 3. 14. For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15. Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16. That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17. That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18. May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19. And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21. Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


Today we simply are not asking or thinking,many are teaching the glorious things of God have gone by.

But fire insurance is good enough for some,for me I want to be filled with all that God has promised.

 

[Albion]

But fire insurance is good enough for some,for me I want to be filled with all that God has promised.

I don't know about the "fire insurance" thing, but I am satisfied that the Holy Spirit is with and in you. You don't have to act anything out in order to prove it to me, others, or yourself. I think that accounts for a large part of the misunderstanding and/or distrust that exists between Evangelicals and Pentecostals/charismatics.

 

[Thepz]

Here is a video of, what I believe is, God performing a wonderful miracle. The mother brought her daughter, which was in a coma, from the hospital to church despite the doctors' orders. After having the whole church pray for the baby, the baby woke from the coma.

youtu.be/wuv5TnWeoLY

This can arguably be a video of God performing a miracle, but just read some of the comments. Some do not believe that this is a miracle from God, but a "staged" miracle.

In John 4, Jesus heals a sick boy. But Jesus also understood the importance seeing a miracle. “Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe” (John 4:48, NIV). After that Jesus healed the sick boy.

However, despite all of these miracles, there were still skeptics. A Pharisee, by the name of Nicodemus, approached Jesus but was skeptical of the things Jesus had done. As a reply, Jesus says "Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony." (John 3:11, NIV).

Even with all of the miracles that Jesus performed and the testimonies of many individuals, Jesus still encountered skeptics. At the end of it all, those that don't believe will continue to not believe, while those that do believe will call it the miracle of God. God will not force the individual to believe, but leave it up to the individual to decide what to believe.

 

[Biblicist]

Wrong post.

 

[Albion]

Wrong post.

I can certainly see how such a thing could happen. Every time I look at the title of this thread in my list of subscriptions, I find myself thinking "What was that one all about again?"

 

[parsley]

The point is not testing the miracle - Jesus was moved with compassion, and wanted to end suffering. We can want that too, and be involved in how God uses people to help each other.

These videos are nice because most are laymen, carrying out what they believe to be the call of God on their lives:

• How to Walk in the Healing Ministry
• Houston healing tour!
• Guatemala Mission Miracles!
• Healing Teaching