God knows the end from the beginning....or does He?

Kira Light · Feb 2, 2012

Stryder06 said:
You're really not catching what we're saying. Christ was FULLY Human. That is why He is called the second Adam. Just like Adam came into this world without sin, so did Christ. Unlike Adam however, who choose to sin, Christ choose not to sin. If there was no choice involved, then Christ was never tempted. He was never tried. He cannot be our Advocate as the scripture says. He would not know how to succor us. It's really that simple.

So Jesus was born FULLY human. Exactly like us? Did he have original sin? He was a pretty unique and different human if not.. Getting off topic but it just seems to me there are some differences between Jesus and your average human.

Did God know for 100% certain that Jesus would not fail?

Stryder06 · Feb 2, 2012

Kira Light said:
So Jesus was born FULLY human. Exactly like us? Did he have original sin? He was a pretty unique and different human if not.. Getting off topic but it just seems to me there are some differences between Jesus and your average human.

Did God know for 100% certain that Jesus would not fail?

That's why I said He was the 2nd Adam. Adam was created 100% human and without sin. Having sin doesn't make you human, being created in the image of God does. Our sinfulness is a disease. Jesus was born without, but not immune to said disease, just like Adam.

Pythons · Feb 2, 2012

Stryder06 said:
Sorry you seem so confused on this issue. For all that you willingly accept from your church, something like this should be child's play. No one is denying that Christ was foretold to come and conquer sin. I believe that 100% That however doesn't change the fact that there was still risk involved.

According to the Bible God knows the end from the beginning & as Tall73 has said...
...That God would come and WOULD SAVE us was spelled out most explicitly.
..."In the Bible" - therefore God via the Bible told us HOW it was going to end up. Exactly.

Kira brought up a very good point in her post & that was that if you are right...
...Everything EXCEPT the Father's continued existence was 'conditional'.
...And that means EVERY prophecy and EVERY promise God ever made to Abraham, etc.

Stryder said:
Again, and it's very simple. IF Christ had freedom of choice, then there was RISK invoved, simply because He had a choice.

Jesus said that He "ALWAYS did the Will of the Father"....
...Do you take that to mean as only applying post Incarnation?
...Contrasted with my view that always ( in this case ) equates to "eternally did the will of the Father".

God knew exactly how things would end up and we were taught in Scripture what God's purpose and Will was...
...As far as "God's part" of what God said He would do.
...So, if God told you what He would do before He actually delivered it - do you have a right.
...To say God might not have been able to deliver?

Stryder06 · Feb 2, 2012

Pythons said:
According to the Bible God knows the end from the beginning & as Tall73 has said...
...That God would come and WOULD SAVE us was spelled out most explicitly.
..."In the Bible" - therefore God via the Bible told us HOW it was going to end up. Exactly.

Kira brought up a very good point in her post & that was that if you are right...
...Everything EXCEPT the Father's continued existence was 'conditional'.
...And that means EVERY prophecy and EVERY promise God ever made to Abraham, etc.

1st, I never denied that God knows the beginning from the end. 2nd, the vast majority of God's promises are conditional. Some of the prophecies were as well in regards to certain kingdoms. 3rd, Kira is a he

Jesus said that He "ALWAYS did the Will of the Father"....
...Do you take that to mean as only applying post Incarnation?
...Contrasted with my view that always ( in this case ) equates to "eternally did the will of the Father".

God knew exactly how things would end up and we were taught in Scripture what God's purpose and Will was...
...As far as "God's part" of what God said He would do.
...So, if God told you what He would do before He actually delivered it - do you have a right.
...To say God might not have been able to deliver?

God has said He'd do many a thing, based on my obedience. He promised to saved me. That's not written in stone though in the sense that I have no choice but to be saved. Again, God knowing the outcome does not mean that God is forcing it to be that way. God allows us to choose our own way. He saw the life Christ would live, and how He choose to remain obedient unto death, thus overcoming sin, etc. This is why the prophesies say what they say. Not because God forced the outcome to be that way, but because God saw how things would play out.

Pythons · Feb 2, 2012

Stryder06 said:
1st, I never denied that God knows the beginning from the end.

That's good Stryder - because God does know the end to the beginning.

Stryder said:
2nd, the vast majority of God's promises are conditional. Some of the prophecies were as well in regards to certain kingdoms.

God however is NOT conditional - God simply is; i.e.; "I AM"....
...There is zero conditionality with God - Salvation was 100% executed by God.

Stryder said:
3rd, Kira is a he

I got that one wrong then.

Stryder said:
God has said He'd do many a thing, based on my obedience. He promised to saved me. That's not written in stone though in the sense that I have no choice but to be saved. Again, God knowing the outcome does not mean that God is forcing it to be that way.

You're preaching to the wrong guy about O.S.A.S. - I reject that doctrine in total....
...Yet at the same time IF God told said "so & so" would be saved ( a specific person ).
...You can take it to the bank that THAT person will be saved.

God said He knows the end from the Beginning...
...God said explicitly He would provide salvation.
...God told us how it would end thousands of years before He entered time.

So, since God knows the end from the beginning ( to which you admit )...
...And you also admit God told us He would NOT fail, participate in iniquity, etc.
...And that He would execute Salvation for the world.

What is there holding you back from affirming the above...?
...Aside from the multiple prophetic utterances of Ellen White.
...That it MIGHT HAVE turned out rotten for Christ and the world might have died in it's sins.

Stryder said:
God allows us to choose our own way. He saw the life Christ would live, and how He choose to remain obedient unto death, thus overcoming sin, etc. This is why the prophesies say what they say. Not because God forced the outcome to be that way, but because God saw how things would play out.

God saw the life Christ would live from beginning to end....
...God informed us what kind of life Christ WOULD live from beginning to end.
...This is explicitly recorded in the Bible LONG prior to Christ's Incarnation.
...So, since God knew what kind of life Christ would live and TOLD US how it was going to end.
...What point is there in making a teaching up that says it MIGHT not have gone the way God explicitly said it would go?

Kira Light · Feb 2, 2012

Stryder06 said:
Sorry you seem so confused on this issue. For all that you willingly accept from your church, something like this should be child's play. No one is denying that Christ was foretold to come and conquer sin. I believe that 100% That however doesn't change the fact that there was still risk involved.

Again, and it's very simple. IF Christ had freedom of choice, then there was RISK invoved, simply because He had a choice.

Did the foretelling of Jesus and his mission make it a certainty?

I'm still wrapping my mind around how all powerful and all knowing God can make false prophecy.

OntheDL · Feb 2, 2012

Tall, you assume God knows the end like you look at the past from the present.

However God has no concept of time, so He would look at the beginning and the end both as the present. From the present point of view, there would be risk because Christ took on human nature and humans are subject to risk and failure.

But either way what's the point? Even if I did have a problem with EGW's writing on this, how does it effect my salvation? I'm not going to weigh the two isolated quotes against everything else that was written. It does not present a theological or salvational problem.

Theofane · Feb 2, 2012

God knows the end from the beginning....or does He?

Of course He does! He calls Himself Alpha & Omega, Beginning and End.

Kira Light · Feb 2, 2012

OntheDL said:
Tall, you assume God knows the end like you look at the past from the present.

However God has no concept of time, so He would look at the beginning and the end both as the present. From the present point of view, there would be risk because Christ took on human nature and humans are subject to risk and failure.

But either way what's the point? Even if I did have a problem with EGW's writing on this, how does it effect my salvation? I'm not going to weigh the two isolated quotes against everything else that was written. It does not present a theological or salvational problem.

If EGW contradicted the Bible, as some would say she has done in this case, you wouldn't question her other statements? Just hypothetically, if you saw an instance where EGW plainly contradicted the Bible would you still believe her to be the spirit of prophecy?

I think you said in another thread that a person must believe in the Investigative Judgement to be saved. Without EGW it is pretty hard to make the case for the IJ (among other things) existence, isn't it?

Kira Light · Feb 2, 2012

OntheDL said:
Tall, you assume God knows the end like you look at the past from the present.

However God has no concept of time, so He would look at the beginning and the end both as the present. From the present point of view, there would be risk because Christ took on human nature and humans are subject to risk and failure.

But either way what's the point? Even if I did have a problem with EGW's writing on this, how does it effect my salvation? I'm not going to weigh the two isolated quotes against everything else that was written. It does not present a theological or salvational problem.

If all the past and future is the present to God, then Jesus life on earth is still the present for God right now. That means Jesus is still, RIGHT NOW, being tempted and will possibly fail, which would cause him to lose his eternal life and no doubt cause all kinds of paradoxes in space time probably blowing up the entire universe.

EastCoastRemnant · Feb 2, 2012

Kira Light said:
If all the past and future is the present to God, then Jesus life on earth is still the present for God right now. That means Jesus is still, RIGHT NOW, being tempted and will possibly fail, which would cause him to lose his eternal life and no doubt cause all kinds of paradoxes in space time probably blowing up the entire universe.

I'm pretty sure if we can't fully comprehend God's personality, then we aren't going to know how He perceives time.

There are some things that we just won't understand while on this blighted rock... it's hard for us to admit that sometimes as we are arrogant and wise in our own eyes...

Kira Light · Feb 2, 2012

EastCoastRemnant said:
I'm pretty sure if we can't fully comprehend God's personality, then we aren't going to know how He perceives time.

There are some things that we just won't understand while on this blighted rock... it's hard for us to admit that sometimes as we are arrogant and wise in our own eyes...

ill second that!

Pythons · Feb 2, 2012

Genesis 12,1
Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall ALL families of the earth be blessed

That is a flat out UNCONDITIONAL promise made by an Infinite God...
...It's saying what "God will do".

We notice that when Jesus quotes the first part of Psalm 22 what that Psalm ends with...

Psalm 22,31
They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that HE hath done this

The Father KNEW the exact second in time the Son would speak those words...
...The Father, Son & Holy Spirit eternally KNEW the exact moment those words would be spoken.
...It was absolutely known LONG prior to it's happening and we were instructed absolutely.
...As to what the outcome of "GOD'S WORK" would be.

Does God know the end from the beginning AND when God communicates something within that time hack....
...Is it a true teaching OR , if there isn't the possibility of failure ( as ALL Adventist groups maintain ).
...Does that force the teaching in Scripture to be a mockery and farce?

OntheDL · Feb 2, 2012

Kira Light said:
If EGW contradicted the Bible, as some would say she has done in this case, you wouldn't question her other statements? Just hypothetically, if you saw an instance where EGW plainly contradicted the Bible would you still believe her to be the spirit of prophecy?

I think you said in another thread that a person must believe in the Investigative Judgement to be saved. Without EGW it is pretty hard to make the case for the IJ (among other things) existence, isn't it?

There are some apparent contradictions in the bible, do we throw those books out of the bible?

I don't think so. There are not salvational and are isolated incidents. I treat EGW writings the same way. I found nothing that presents a theological and salvational issue.

Pythons · Feb 2, 2012

OntheDL said:
There are some apparent contradictions in the bible, do we throw those books out of the bible?

I don't think so. There are not salvational and are isolated incidents. I treat EGW writings the same way. I found nothing that presents a theological and salvational issue.

What Tall73 illustrated was an obvious contradiction between EGW and the Bible...
...THAT was the question contained in the O.P.
...Does God know the end from the beginning?

It's been established that God does know AND that God communicated His ultimate victory to us in Scripture...
...So if God knows and has communicated to us what He will do.
...What mechanism is employeed by SDA's to say God really didn't have the authority to be affirmative He would provide salvation?

tall73 · Feb 2, 2012

Stryder, whether Jesus could sin or not, by the time He was sent God already knew He would not.

Therefore, there is no risk unless you believe God can't know the end from the beginning.

tall73 · Feb 2, 2012

OntheDL,

If you think the "I am" becoming the "I am not anymore" is not a big theological problem then I am curious what you think a big theological problem would be.

tall73 · Feb 2, 2012

EastCoastRemnant said:
I'm pretty sure if we can't fully comprehend God's personality, then we aren't going to know how He perceives time.

There are some things that we just won't understand while on this blighted rock... it's hard for us to admit that sometimes as we are arrogant and wise in our own eyes...

There are many things we don't understand.

However, the idea that God knows the end from the beginning is understood BY WHAT HE TOLD US. That was His choice to reveal.

tall73 · Feb 2, 2012

OntheDL said:
Tall, you assume God knows the end like you look at the past from the present.

However God has no concept of time, so He would look at the beginning and the end both as the present. From the present point of view, there would be risk because Christ took on human nature and humans are subject to risk and failure.

DL, while you are trying to figure out God's relation to time we already know what He told us in His word. He knows the end from the beginning.

And He predicted events in Jesus' life.

Did you figure out yet that Psalm 22 predicted Jesus words that you thought were a sign of risk?

tall73 · Feb 2, 2012

OntheDL said:
Even if I did have a problem with EGW's writing on this, how does it effect my salvation? I'm not going to weigh the two isolated quotes against everything else that was written. It does not present a theological or salvational problem.

Even if you did?

Do you?

It is interesting that just in the last couple of weeks ECR has said he picks and chooses and doesn't accept everything Ellen White says.

Brightcandle in GT said the same.

Now OntheDL is toying with the notion.

Perhaps it is more than just one or two statements.

Yet Ellen White told you all not to do that, pick and choose:

The statement which you quote from "Testimony," No. 31, that "in these letters which I wrote, in the Testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper, expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision -- the precious rays of light shining from the throne," is correct. It is true concerning the articles in our papers and in the many volumes of my books. I have been instructed in accordance with the Word in the precepts of the law of God. I have been instructed in selecting from the lessons of Christ. Are not the positions taken in my writings in harmony with the teachings of Jesus Christ? If not, point it out to me. {RH, September 6, 1906 par. 1}

Many times in my experience I have been called upon to meet the attitude of a certain class who acknowledged that the testimonies were from God, but took the position that this matter and that matter were Sister White's opinion and judgment. This suits those who do not love reproof and correction, and who, if their ideas are crossed, have occasion to explain the difference between the human and the divine. {2MR 87.2}

If the preconceived opinions or particular ideas of some are crossed in being reproved by testimonies, they have a burden at once to make plain their position to discriminate between the testimonies, defining what is Sister White's human judgment and what is the word of the Lord. Everything that sustains their cherished ideas is divine, and the testimonies to correct their errors are human--Sister White's opinions. They make of none effect the counsel of God by their tradition.--Ms 16, 1889, p. 1. ("The Discernment of Truth," circa Jan. 1889. 3SM p. 69.) {2MR 87.3}[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]And now, brethren, I entreat you not to interpose between me and the people, and turn away the light which God would have come to them. Do not by your criticisms take out all the force, all the point and power, from the Testimonies. Do not feel that you can dissect them to suit your own ideas, claiming that God has given you ability to discern what is light from heaven and what is the expression of mere human wisdom. If the Testimonies speak not according to the Word of God, reject them.--Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 691. {3SM 46.3}

"God is either teaching His church, reproving their wrongs and strengthening their faith, or He is not. This work is of God, or it is not. God does nothing in partnership with Satan. My work . . . bears the stamp of God or the stamp of the enemy. There is no halfway work in the matter. The Testimonies are of the Spirit of God, or of the devil." [VOL. 4, P. 230.] {5T 671.2}

Yet now when I send you a testimony of warning and reproof, many of you declare it to be merely the opinion of Sister White. You have thereby insulted the Spirit of God. You know how the Lord has manifested Himself through the spirit of prophecy. Past, present, and future have passed before me. I have been shown faces that I had never seen, and years afterward I knew them when I saw them. I have been aroused from my sleep with a vivid sense of subjects previously presented to my mind; and I have written, at midnight, letters that have gone across the continent and, arriving at a crisis, have saved great disaster to the cause of God. This has been my work for many years. {5T 64.3}

God knows the end from the beginning....or does He?

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