God Is Not The Author of Confusion

[Jipsah]

How is the Revelation most often described?

We all know that all End Times buffs understand the Revelation perfectly, but unfortunately it seems that no two of them agree on what it means. Seems that for most of us mere mortals; the Rev is best, and most often, described as "confusing". I've provided a few examples below.

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The Book of Revelation is the go-to when learning about the second coming. It can be a frustrating and confusing book to read, so it's no wonder misinterpretations are rampant.

Revelation Made Clear - Bible Study in the Book of Revelation
This website is an attempt to cut through so much of the fear and confusion that surrounds the book of Revelation.

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The Book of Revelation has been the focus of ongoing discussion for those looking into what, if any, relevance the prophetic book might hold for present times, and an in-depth study by one author suggests that some views on the prophetic book may be misguided.

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The Book Of Revelation Made Plain And Clear is intended to remove all apprehension and hesitation from reading the great book of Revelation. Frank Thomas' simple and straightforward treatment clears away much of the confusion and misunderstanding that has for so long been associated with this wonderful book of prophecy.

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Much of the conflict and confusion over the Revelation stems from a widespread practice of taking part or all of this prophecy out of its divinely determined time context.

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The Book of Revelation is part of the apostle John's ministry, which covers the past, present and future, with a special emphasis on Christ's personal greatness. ... There is much confusion as to the interpretation of the book of Revelation.













The Revelation of Jesus Christ-Comfort or Confusion?

Context or Confusion: The Revelation - Part 1

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Hi I glanced at the majority of your links and see you have posted guys on different sides of the aisle. The original premise you state is that no two of them agree is a bit misleading as a futurist I can have over 90% agreement on the book with a few places where the scriptures are not crystal clear as to how it will play out . For example the 10 heads that give their authority to the beast. All futurist believe 10 literal heads will give the power to the beast. Now there are different ideas of who these 10 heads will be. Some see it as the EU others 10 heads from global regions established like the EU and others now think it might be the 10 heads of the super corporations. So do we agree or not?
When reading your Bible you are told to study yourself and rightly to divide and also not to be led into every wind of doctrine. With prophecy the prophecies regarding Jesus 1st coming for example in Zech were fulfilled literally. He rode up on the foal of a donkey. He was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver and the money given to the potter. So when Zech describes the 2nd coming as coming on a day when Jerusalem is being overrun and half the city taken I would just note that is going to happen. It says the LORD comes with his saints and is king over all the earth in that day. He melts the enemies and the MT of Olives splits in two forming a new valley with specific boundaries and a new river which flows two branches one going east and the river flows year round. The nations which are left must now go to Jerusalem to worship the king and keep the feast of Tabernacles or they get no rain. Now if you just read it and believe it will happen as written you are a futurist and there is nothing to argue about as to how to interpret the texts. Note that Ezekiel 47 says the Dead Sea will be healed and a prosperous fishing village at the time the 12 tribes gain their allotment in the land of Canaan. Again taking literally this agrees with ZEch 14 taken literally and they are in harmony.
So the debate is going to come down to is the literalist futurist view right or is the allegorical view correct? This is where you can do your own homework.

 

[Jipsah]

Hi I glanced at the majority of your links and see you have posted guys on different sides of the aisle. The original premise you state is that no two of them agree is a bit misleading as a futurist I can have over 90% agreement on the book with a few places where the scriptures are not crystal clear as to how it will play out .

As I said, all endtimes buffs know precisely what Revelation means. Now it may that there are two, or maybe more, who agree on it, buit the sort of unanimity you speak of amongst futurists is a pipe dream.

So the debate is going to come down to is the literalist futurist view right or is the allegorical view correct? This is where you can do your own homework.

Literalist futurists are about as common as honest politicians. Let's face it, futurism requires a *lot* of creative exegesis. "Nah, He wasn't speaking to the folks who asked the question, He was talking to us." Right? And when does 490>2000 make sense? It does in futurism, doesn't it?

But the point of this thread isn't eschatology, it's about looking seriously at a part of the New Testament canon that seems to generate as astonishing amount of confusion amongst its readers. Yes, if you have a doctrinal overlay to drop over it that tells you what it really means without the tedious necessity of actually thinking about what it says it's a piece of cake. But without that, a goodly percentage of the people who read the Revelation for the first time seem to come away from the experience knowing less than they did when they started. Should cheat sheets be included as an intro to it and included in the Bible?

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

As I said, all endtimes buffs know precisely what Revelation means. Now it may that there are two, or maybe more, who agree on it, buit the sort of unanimity you speak of amongst futurists is a pipe dream.

Literalist futurists are about as common as honest politicians. Let's face it, futurism requires a *lot* of creative exegesis. "Nah, He wasn't speaking to the folks who asked the question, He was talking to us." Right? And when does 490>2000 make sense? It does in futurism, doesn't it?

But the point of this thread isn't eschatology, it's about looking seriously at a part of the New Testament canon that seems to generate as astonishing amount of confusion amongst its readers. Yes, if you have a doctrinal overlay to drop over it that tells you what it really means without the tedious necessity of actually thinking about what it says it's a piece of cake. But without that, a goodly percentage of the people who read the Revelation for the first time seem to come away from the experience knowing less than they did when they started. Should cheat sheets be included as an intro to it and included in the Bible?

Hi perhaps the confusion is on the historical allegorical side of the aisle as you asked how can 490 be more than 2000. When Jesus picked up the scroll of Isaiah 61 he read a portion of the 1st sentence.
1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, Now Jesus declared this day this is fulfilled in your hearing. Now the rest of the passage also is falling upon the same one whom the Spirit of the LORD falls upon and in contrast to the day of the LORD it is all about the day of vengeance of our God. Now some think 70 AD was this day and indeed it was a day of judgment upon Israel yet this day of vengeance in Isaiah 61 Israel is lifted up and distinctions are made between Jew and Gentile at this time. It is a glorious list of things accomplished in the day of vengeance. The prophecy on Judah back in Genesis also shows God's understanding of the two advents and the gap between them. The choice vine is bound to the foal of donkey and all His garments are dyed in the blood of grapes. Right here the two emblems of the 1st and 2nd coming are presented in Jacobs blessing. This idiom of the garments dyed in blood is enlarged in scripture as Isaiah 63.
1 Who is this who comes from Edom,
With dyed garments from Bozrah,
This One who is glorious in His apparel,
Traveling in the greatness of His strength?—
“I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.”
2 Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?
3 “I have trodden the winepress alone,
And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My anger,
And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,
And I have stained all My robes.
4 For the day of vengeance is in My heart,
And the year of My redeemed has come.
5 I looked, but there was no one to help,
And I wondered
That there was no one to uphold;
Therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me;
And My own fury, it sustained Me.
6 I have trodden down the peoples in My anger,
Made them drunk in My fury,
And brought down their strength to the earth.” In Rev the 2nd coming is again spoken of as trampling the wine press of the wrath of God.

 

[Matt5]

"God Is Not The Author of Confusion"

We'll see about that.

Matthew 13

10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

This is the real interesting part:

15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.

All those parables and metaphors about the return of Jesus are used in order to sow confusion. Why? Because bad things are coming and Jesus wants to punish us. Otherwise, he wouldn't have used parables and metaphors.

But aren't Christians in the "you" group? That's the group that gets to understand. I'm thinking the answer is NO. That's why parable and metaphor interpretations are all over the place. And mostly they're just not helpful.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

"God Is Not The Author of Confusion"

We'll see about that.

Matthew 13

10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

This is the real interesting part:

15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.

All those parables and metaphors about the return of Jesus are used in order to sow confusion. Why? Because bad things are coming and Jesus wants to punish us. Otherwise, he wouldn't have used parables and metaphors.

But aren't Christians in the "you" group? That's the group that gets to understand. I'm thinking the answer is NO. That's why parable and metaphor interpretations are all over the place. And mostly they're just not helpful.

Hi in Jesus life he used both parables and straight up talk and things like as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so the son of man must be lifted up. In this passage it is an allegory set up almost 2000 years before Jesus was lifted up. But later Jesus cleary noted that he would be killed and raised on the 3rd day so the allegory departs and the sum of the literal and allegory come to the same conclusion. Now when we get to end times passages like Zech14 Jerusalem is overrun and half the city taken when the LORD comes and is king over all the earth. In Rev the angels proclaim the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms of the LORD and HIs Christ and he shall rule forever and ever. This is interposed in revelation but clearly is achieved at Armageddon. Now the ruling of the nations with a rod of iron and the binding of Satan and then loosing of him after the 1000 years is finished with Satan meeting his end when he surrounds Jerusalem and then fire comes down from heaven and then it is great white throne time and new Jerusalem time. All of these things support a literal view and thus the allegories become clear within the literal passages. When Jesus reign the contrast between before and after will be 100% and evil will never regain its authority or hold on the earth. The very fact that global government is being forwarded with a cashless society and that this effort is LGBTQ positive should have some thinking that maybe the futurist are right. Evil is supposed to be defeated when the kingdom comes that covers the earth and has no end. So the gospel of the kingdom of eternal life is true and the kingdom coming over the earth is also true. These ideas are not mutually opposed. So we can expect the same hermeneutics to prevail in the 1st and 2nd advent.