God is not real... in my opinion...

[raffster]

I didn't mean to be that conclusive. I do firmly belive that there is no god (or gods). If I came across a fact that suggested that god could be real. Then I would seriously sonsider having faith.

If it your belief then I respect that. I was atheist too for awhile (about a year, I think) and it was perhaps the main turning point in my spiritual journey.

You will never come across a fact that will "suggest" that God could be real just like you will never understand how, for example, an apple tastes like by reading the description of how the apple tastes like. Do you follow what I mean?

Even if science could prove that God exists by the very means you want science to provide the evidence, you will never know God until you experience God.

Having faith has very little to do with what you know. It is more of what is in your heart, what it is you want to accomplish and what it is you have experienced as Truth.

I hope that one day science can produce a cure for cancer. Is that the kind of hope you mean?

Close but not quite. It is the hope that I am referring to when you have cancer. Can science produce that kind of hope? Science will eventually find cure for almost everything someday, but can it cure the various "sicknesses" and "diseases" that plague the soul?

There are anti-depressants that make people feel better but no amount of anti-depressants or medication can restore someone's sense of hope when his whole world has crumbled.

I read a book once, called Childhoods End, by Arthur C. Clark, where aliens land on Earth and started running the place. All very peaceful and politely, mind you. But when they land, religion pretty much goes out the door. You can't state that christianity will always have its followers. Once science discovers enough about the universe, I believe religion will die out.

Perhaps. Perhaps someday there will be no need for religion because humankind has reached that point of realization and awareness that makes religion obsolete. Religion afterall is man's way of discovering and being with a higher being, self, God, or even Force, if you want to call it that. When everybody transcends the very nature of "being" -- and that is realizing our true selves (that there is really no such thing as "self") Religion will disappear and things will just BE.

Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Ba'hai and all the other great religions will be around until such time they make themselves obsolete. That is what I meant.

Compared to some religions, Christianity got off easy. Christianity was adopted by the most powerful nation at the time (Rome) and they pretty much spread it throughout the known world. Judaism has had to go through enslavement by the Egyptians (debatable) through to Hitler and the Holocaust. Islam is now almost hated worldwide because of a few bad eggs who spoil it for everyone. Buddhism has been oppressed by the Hindu for centuries. I dont know the details but I have read about Hindu people burning Buddhist temples.

Indeed. And how these different religions affected history and its present followers are making things better (or worse) should have little to do with your own journey, spiritual or not. The point I'm trying to make is this: Try to invest more energy in yourself instead of wondering why external factors are the way they are.

You cannot make changes in the world even if you had all the knowledge and wisdom IF you do not even know who you are and what your purpose is.

 

[GodlessHeathen]

Having faith has very little to do with what you know. It is more of what is in your heart, what it is you want to accomplish and what it is you have experienced as Truth.

Thats what I was talking about in my initial post! Saying that its what's in your heart that counts. You want me to put blind faith over facts! What person in their right mind would do that?

 

[451ffan]

Hey Everyone,
I used to believe, unconditionally, in Yaweh when I was small, simply because people said there was a god who controlled everything, and, being small and open to suggestion, I just said "Oh. Cool." and went on with my life. Then I got to an age where I just thought, "Hmm. When you actually think about it, it becomes dead clear that there is no god.". That was my story, anyway.
Now to begin my argument... where to start...
If god is real why make other religions? Having opposing religions has always been a bad thing! Terrorism, war and just fighting in general. Christianity has been fairly quiet recently in terms of jihad(holy war), though. But only since about 200 years ago when christians said, "Hey, aren't we supposed to 'love thine enemy'?", at which point they droppped the Inquisition and settled down.
And I find that when you try to tell a christian that according to science, they're wrong they just go "But you must have faith.". Thats like believing the moon is made of cheese when science says its not.
And also... I think they make the debating section right at the bottom of the page in small letters so that not many christians will go here for the fear of losing disiples. C'mon prove me wrong!

Well, thats my first post out of the way then. Bye.

Don't look for answers, because if you have faith, it doesn't even matter. Faith is necessarily making a decision about something, and then sticking to it, no matter what.

 

[Clark_98C]

Well OP, you can't exactly prove the existance of God anymore than I can unoquivocably prove the existance of God; as it's more of a matter of personal conviction.

 

[Abbadon]

GodlessHeathen, I believe your problems stem from organized fundamentalist religion being the only thing you see as religion. Your descriptions and your father's descriptions work great for that, but don't touch mystics and philosophers.

Also, why do you keep stating that "there is no God" is a fact, and offer no conclusive proofs for it? If it is so obvious, you should be able to make atheists out of someone here.

If god is real why make other religions?

Most religions came about probably from an original religion, different religions argue as to thier pedigree. The split was likely caused by cultural differances and superstition (attributing a personality to clouds, for instance).

Having opposing religions has always been a bad thing! Terrorism, war and just fighting in general.

Wrong. Having opposing people is the cause of such bad things. The people will grab onto religion, philosophy, or whatever they can twist to justify killing people.

And I find that when you try to tell a christian that according to science, they're wrong they just go "But you must have faith.".

That really shows lack of thinking, rather than faith. Some faith will deny facts that refute thier faith. More faith will resolve the differences.

Stalin and Mao were acting on what they thought were good the the people. The Inquisistion were acting on behalf of god.

What's the difference to theists? Nothing.

I didn't mean to be that conclusive. I do firmly belive that there is no god (or gods). If I came across a fact that suggested that god could be real. Then I would seriously sonsider having faith.

Do you believe that there is some universal moral law? Some sort of Tao or Logos? I'm not saying "Well, that obviously had to have been given by a god," I'm saying that that is God. Nietzsche's Ubermensch is a Messiah-figure.

Thats what I was talking about in my initial post! Saying that its what's in your heart that counts. You want me to put blind faith over facts! What person in their right mind would do that?

At the moment, you've got a blind faith that there is no divine power.

My father is a keen blogger on the website blognow.com.au. His username is plonka and he has written some very interesting essays about god and religion in general. I get most of my views on religion from him. I think you guys should check it out

And yet you spoke negatively in your original post about believing something about God simply because people close to you said so.

Historically, religion offers proof of nothing except faith whereas science offers proof of everything in fact.

But religion doesn't seek to offer proof, that's the job of philosophy. Religion is the hypothesis for morality, philosophy the experiment for it.

Religion tries to interpret ideas whereas science tries to prove ideas.

Then over-funding a scientific experiment that fails would qualify as a religion: go back, reinterpret the ideas so that it works so the funding isn't wasted.

 

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

Hey Everyone,
I used to believe, unconditionally, in Yaweh when I was small, simply because people said there was a god who controlled everything, and, being small and open to suggestion, I just said "Oh. Cool." and went on with my life. Then I got to an age where I just thought, "Hmm. When you actually think about it, it becomes dead clear that there is no god.". That was my story, anyway.
Now to begin my argument... where to start...
If god is real why make other religions? Having opposing religions has always been a bad thing! Terrorism, war and just fighting in general. Christianity has been fairly quiet recently in terms of jihad(holy war), though. But only since about 200 years ago when christians said, "Hey, aren't we supposed to 'love thine enemy'?", at which point they droppped the Inquisition and settled down.
And I find that when you try to tell a christian that according to science, they're wrong they just go "But you must have faith.". Thats like believing the moon is made of cheese when science says its not.
And also... I think they make the debating section right at the bottom of the page in small letters so that not many christians will go here for the fear of losing disiples. C'mon prove me wrong!

Well, thats my first post out of the way then. Bye.

It's a fallacy that religion causes war and hate. Look at every attempt to to create an atheistic or deistic goverment in history.

1)Revolutionary France, 18th century.
Result: Hundreds of thousands murdered
2) Communist Russia
Result: Tens of millions murdered.
3) Communist China
Result: Tens of Millions murdered.

I could go on...

The inquision stopped for many reasons. To say that Christians never realised they were supposed to love their neighbour ignores 1800 years of Christian writing. Christians have commited crimes, sure, but the thing is it is only really crimes that live long in the memory.

 

[GodlessHeathen]

Also, why do you keep stating that "there is no God" is a fact, and offer no conclusive proofs for it? If it is so obvious, you should be able to make atheists out of someone here.

I say that I believe it is a fact. Just as you believe god is real.

Most religions came about probably from an original religion, different religions argue as to thier pedigree. The split was likely caused by cultural differances and superstition (attributing a personality to clouds, for instance).

Humans are curious by nature and once we developed enough, we got to thinking "How did we get here?", "Why are we here?" and "Where does all this come from?". They asked these questions to the local wiseman, who was supposed to know everything based on the fact that he knew what time to harvest the corn, and he started spinning tall stories to uphold the belief of the people in himself. If he had come out with "Dunno." People would start questioning him. It's like The Boy Who Cried Wolf.

At the moment, you've got a blind faith that there is no divine power.

No, I base my belief on facts. That is not blind faith. Blind faith is where you believe something that has no evidence to prove it.

And yet you spoke negatively in your original post about believing something about God simply because people close to you said so.

Both my parents used to be god botherers, and almost all of my extended family are. Most of my friends when I was very young unconditionally believed in god and thats why I used to believe. My parents aren't the only people close to me.

It's a fallacy that religion causes war and hate.

Religion doesn't cause war and hate. It's a mix of having multiple religions and greed, which is part of human nature. Think about it. If Islam was the only religion in the world, then there would be no terrorist trying to kill the infidels.

 

[0rion]

I read a book once, called Childhoods End, by Arthur C. Clark, where aliens land on Earth and started running the place. All very peaceful and politely, mind you. But when they land, religion pretty much goes out the door. You can't state that christianity will always have its followers. Once science discovers enough about the universe, I believe religion will die out.

I don't agree. Science has discovered enough about the universe yet most religious followers remain willfully ignorant about them. Religion can only die out if everyone in this world receives a proper education.

 

[0rion]

Also, why do you keep stating that "there is no God" is a fact, and offer no conclusive proofs for it? If it is so obvious, you should be able to make atheists out of someone here.

I say that I believe it is a fact. Just as you believe god is real.

It is more reasonable to say that there is no God than to say that there is ... just like it is more reasonable to say that there is no pink elephant orbiting the Earth, rather than saying that there is...

 

[GodlessHeathen]

I don't agree. Science has discovered enough about the universe yet most religious followers remain willfully ignorant about them. Religion can only die out if everyone in this world receives a proper education.

 

[tocis]

If god is real why make other religions?

Good question, ain't it?

One explanation that seems quite plausible to me (assuming that deities can/do exist of course, a point where we will disagree ) is that there are actually quite a few deities out there. Of course this kind of raises questions about the claims of faiths like christianity or islam (about there being only their respective deities)... but fortunately that's not my problem

 

[GodlessHeathen]

Good question, ain't it?

One explanation that seems quite plausible to me (assuming that deities can/do exist of course, a point where we will disagree ) is that there are actually quite a few deities out there. Of course this kind of raises questions about the claims of faiths like christianity or islam (about there being only their respective deities)... but fortunately that's not my problem

Interesting view. I think that monothiesm (the idea that there is only one god) evolved out of polytheism (the idea that there are multiple gods). Although I haven't read all of the Bible (I'm about halfway through genesis) I am familiar with a few quotes. At some point Yaweh says "I am the Lord thy god. Thou shall have no other god before me." Wait... did he just acknowledge the existence of other gods? I think he did.

 

[raffster]

Thats what I was talking about in my initial post! Saying that its what's in your heart that counts. You want me to put blind faith over facts! What person in their right mind would do that?

Thats what I was talking about in my initial post! Saying that its what's in your heart that counts. You want me to put blind faith over facts! What person in their right mind would do that?

You misunderstood me.

Blind faith = following the "norm", what everyone says you should follow or do. It's maintaining the status quo more than anything else. Example is: Read Bible, listens to Pastor or Priest, "assumes" that is Truth.

Real faith = following your heart. Learning to open your eyes to the Truth that knowledge (science) alone can never explain. Example is: Read Bible, Analyze, Seek/Search, Investigate, Explore, Experience (even become atheist), Realize, Come to conclusion that it is Truth.

In the final analysis, in the context of faith it's not whether you believe in God or not that matters. It's whether you've understood that our existence is truly about just one thing: Loving others as we love ourselves.

If you can realize and become that much, nothing else matters.

Peace.

 

[Arthra]

As far as the issue of other religions in my faith we acknowledge they all have the same spiritual origin but arose at different times and in various cultures in the past hence appear different in language..rites and various doctrines..but when carefully studied you will find there are many similarities and commonalities between them.

People who are involved in Inter-faith activities are becoming increasingly aware of this.

Someone brought up education:

"Religion can only die out if everyone in this world receives a proper education."

In my Faith we prize education and I think you will find many educators in the past and in remote corners of the world have been people of faith so you could ask yourself why would religious people support education?

The answer is I think that their religion is progressive not regressive..and aspires to the improvement of humanity. Religion need not be aligned with superstition and backward practices.

- Art

 

[WhiteMageGirl]

Real faith = following your heart. Learning to open your eyes to the Truth that knowledge (science) alone can never explain. Example is: Read Bible, Analyze, Seek/Search, Investigate, Explore, Experience (even become atheist), Realize, Come to conclusion that it is Truth.

I do not think I will ever reach a stage when I will say, "This is what I believe. Finished." What I believe is alive... and open to growth. -Madeleine L'Engle

Someone brought up education:

"Religion can only die out if everyone in this world receives a proper education."

I do believe that with a proper education based on philosophy and logic certain religions will die out, but so far there are a few religions I couldn't even begin to knock at with philosophy and logic. However Christianity, Islam, Hinduism which are some of the most popular religions in the world are not part of those few. Their biggest problems are a well defined super natural entity which has a well defined set of divine teachings.

 

[raffster]

I do not think I will ever reach a stage when I will say, "This is what I believe. Finished." What I believe is alive... and open to growth. -Madeleine L'Engle

This is in the context of differentiating blind faith from real faith. Of course in realizing Truth, that is just the beginning. But one must get to it first and very few reach the other shore with blind faith.

 

[WhiteMageGirl]

This is in the context of differentiating blind faith from real faith. Of course in realizing Truth, that is just the beginning. But one must get to it first and very few reach the other shore with blind faith.

I do not recall Christianity being open for growth. Faith may be open for growth, but the beliefs of Christians are basically set in stone(to my knowledge). Due to the belief that the Bible is the infallible word of the Christian god.

 

[GodlessHeathen]

Someone brought up education:

"Religion can only die out if everyone in this world receives a proper education."

In my Faith we prize education and I think you will find many educators in the past and in remote corners of the world have been people of faith so you could ask yourself why would religious people support education?

I think what Orion meant when he said that was that religious schools , which are generally quite good, also teach that there is a god and if you question this you get punished.

Public schools don't have any religious bias but most are generally middle to lower class.

Am I close Orion?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Interesting view. I think that monothiesm (the idea that there is only one god) evolved out of polytheism (the idea that there are multiple gods). Although I haven't read all of the Bible (I'm about halfway through genesis) I am familiar with a few quotes. At some point Yaweh says "I am the Lord thy god. Thou shall have no other god before me." Wait... did he just acknowledge the existence of other gods? I think he did.

Looks like. In fact "gods" is mentioned many times in the Bible.
Btw, what translation are you using for the Bible?

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

gods occurs 244 times in 215 verses: Page 1, verses 1 - 25

[SIZE=+0](Young) Jeremiah 25:6 And ye do not go after other gods to serve them, and to bow yourselves to them, nor do ye provoke Me to anger with the work of your hands, and I do no evil to you; [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0](Young) 1 Corinthians 8:5 for even if there are those called gods, whether in heaven, whether upon earth--as there are gods many and lords many-- [/SIZE]

 

[WhiteMageGirl]

he said that was that religious schools , which are generally quite good

Some are good, many are bad. I know several fly by night 'schools' in my area. I was even enrolled in one for one semester. It was horrible especially since I am an Atheist. Aside from the religious part there was little to no learning going on and virtually none of the students(who were completely 'educated' there) went on the college.

Bigger religious schools might not have this problem but I know for a fact that many small ones would stuggle to meet basic state requirements in Math, Reading, and Writting.