God is in complete control.

[Hammster]

, I remind you for the third time that I await your response to my Post 16.

I addressed your central argument in post 21.

 

[John Mullally]

Let me explain how not acting can also be considered causing. Let’s say that I don’t testify to a murder and the wrong man is convicted. Did I cause that by not testifying? Or let’s say I don’t feed my dog and she starves to death. Did I cause that that?

God doesn’t need to “act” in order to cause something to happen. But regardless, as scripture states

You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

You make him to rule over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,
— Psalm 8:6

There is one exception, though.

For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
— 1 Corinthians 15:27

Although, there are plenty of scriptures that indicate that God worked to have Christ crucified, influences people, answers prayer, and does what He desires, there are no scriptures that God controls our will and actions. Just because God can do something, doesn't mean He does it.

God does not cause anyone to sin. James 1:13 says that God tempts no one.

God can put all things in subjection under Christ's feet without "causing" anyone else's action.

 

[Hammster]

Although, there are plenty of scriptures that God worked to have Christ crucified and that He influences men, there is no scriptures that God controls our will and actions.

God does not cause anyone to sin. James 1:13 says that God tempts no one.

God can put all things in subjection under Christ's feet without "causing" anyone's action.

Can you explain what you see as a practical difference between influencing our wills, and controlling our wills?

Let me give you a couple of verses to reference/keep in mind.

The first one you already alluded to.

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:23

And also

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
— Genesis 50:20

 

[John Mullally]

Can you explain what you see as a practical difference between influencing our wills, and controlling our wills?

Agents for God and the devil influence us. The same goes for advertisers. Unlike control, we can resist influence. For example, Act 7:51 says that people commonly resist the Holy Spirit.

Someday in Heaven, we will learn that throughout all our lives, we were under various influences—some good and some bad. We will learn that God had been speaking to us our whole life. If we choose the wrong things, then it has the effect of drowning out God’s voice, in exchange for hearing a different voice, and one with far less wisdom than what it otherwise portrays.

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:23

Calvinists commit the “Some to All Fallacy,” in terms that if God determined one thing, then He must have determined all things. Moreover, Acts 2:23 discusses God predetermined plan of Calvary in conjunction with His omniscient foreknowledge, which can convey the meaning that God foreknew the evil intentions of those involved and used it to His own advantage, so as to use man’s means of death as God’s means of life, in order to provide redemption for all.

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
— Genesis 50:20

At Genesis 50:20, God meant the evil act of slavery to spare Joseph’s life, just as at Acts 2:23, God meant the evil act of crucifixion as an atonement for mankind’s sin, but in neither scenario is it ever said that God caused the evil thoughts and intentions of those involved. Instead, God knew and used their independently conceived evil motives in order to plan around it, in terms of how to redeem His good from their evil. Therefore, God does not plan sin. He plans around it, turning other people’s sin into a beneficial purpose, and hence the Calvinist’s claim that God decreed “whatsoever comes to pass” is false because He did not decree anyone’s evil thoughts and intentions

You cannot take unique examples of God working to bring about a good purpose through an already evil intention of man and then use that as proof that God (1) sovereignly brought about the evil intentions themselves and (2) that He sovereignly works in this same way at all times throughout history. In other words, God didn’t cause their evil intentions. God used the evil intentions of others to His own advantage to redeem good from evil. The problem with Calvinism is that it makes their evil intentions part of God’s design, and then when pressed about how that might make God evil, Calvinists defer to mystery, thus abandoning the principles of cause and effect whenever it suits their need.

 

[Hammster]

Agents for God and the devil influence us. The same goes for advertisers. Unlike control, we can resist influence. For example, Act 7:51 says that people commonly resist the Holy Spirit.

That doesn’t address the question.

Someday in Heaven, we will learn that throughout all our lives, we were under various influences—some good and some bad. We will learn that God had been speaking to us our whole life. If we choose the wrong things, then it has the effect of drowning out God’s voice, in exchange for hearing a different voice, and one with far less wisdom than what it otherwise portrays.

How do you know that we will learn that?

Calvinists commit the “Some to All Fallacy,” in terms that if God determined one thing, then He must have determined all things. Moreover, Acts 2:23 discusses God predetermined plan of Calvary in conjunction with His omniscient foreknowledge, which can convey the meaning that God foreknew the evil intentions of those involved and used it to His own advantage, so as to use man’s means of death as God’s means of life, in order to provide redemption for all.

If this were the case, then God had no real control over the crucifixion. All He could do was foresee it happening. He was reduced to making lemonade out of lemons.

At Genesis 50:20, God meant the evil act of slavery to spare Joseph’s life, just as at Acts 2:23, God meant the evil act of crucifixion as an atonement for mankind’s sin, but in neither scenario is it ever said that God caused the evil thoughts and intentions of those involved. Instead, God knew and used their independently conceived evil motives in order to plan around it, in terms of how to redeem His good from their evil. Therefore, God does not plan sin. He plans around it, turning other people’s sin into a beneficial purpose, and hence the Calvinist’s claim that God decreed “whatsoever comes to pass” is false because He did not decree anyone’s evil thoughts and intentions

Your assumption is that I think that God caused evil thoughts to take place. May it never be. If you think that Reformed Theology looks at things this way, then you really need to go back and look at what you know about Reformed Theology. It’s way off.

You cannot take unique examples of God working to bring about a good purpose through an already evil intention of man and then use that as proof that God (1) sovereignly brought about the evil intentions themselves and (2) that He sovereignly works in this same way at all times throughout history. In other words, God didn’t cause their evil intentions. God used the evil intentions of others to His own advantage to redeem good from evil. The problem with Calvinism is that it makes their evil intentions part of God’s design, and then when pressed about how that might make God evil, Calvinists defer to mystery, thus abandoning the principles of cause and effect whenever it suits their need.

You are correct in that we cannot take these unique examples and say that this is how God works throughout history. However, we can take those examples and look at what scripture does say about God’s sovereignty over all things, and we can come up with a conclusion that, regardless of how he does it, God does control all things without causing men to actually sin.

 

[Halbhh]

What's odd is nobody talks about how God directs and feeds the animals or DNA or Molecules or Angels or anything else. But all of a sudden when humans are involved we have to come up with this notion of free will and God's sovereignty comes into question. Which is it? Either God is sovereign above everything or he is not a sovereign God at all. The God of the Bible IS sovereign (Proverbs 16:33)

God predetermined our days on the Earth (Psalm 139:16). God doesn't just know the day you will die. He predetermined it. God declares the beginning from the end and the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). God doesn't just know all of the sins you will commit. If you're among the elect he died for them. After all it was Jesus who said he will give his life for his sheep and for us to rejoice in the fact that our name is written in the book of life (John 10:15, Luke 10:20). They're paid for and not one person who God meant to save will be lost (John 6:37-40).

This does NOT make us robots because we still sin and we still gladly come to our shepherd when he calls us into his flock. We are no less robots than the Angels. If you're offended by what I say you shouldn't be. Those who don't repent something much much worse and more offensive than no free will will happen to you.

Well, when you wrote " nobody talks about how God directs and feeds the animals" I realize it might help if you can see how someone like me indeed does:

So, when a butterfly darts left instead of right, and the tiny whiff of wind pushes some rising air or such and that veers into a turbulence and causes a tiny rotation, but that rotation then naturally grows due to an updraft or whatever. and that helps cause rain on this spot instead of some other place....quenching the thirst of thirsty plants and animals at that spot......... -- that's 'chance' operating as God designed it to operate.....

So, we should reconsider what it is we are calling "chance", right?....

Basically, Nature is God's -- He made it, and it operates as He intended, and intends.

God is indeed in control, but that doesn't mean He has to micromanage nature(!).... Why not? Because He made it and it operates as He designed it to operate, to begin with.

He made it. It works.

But, He can intervene!

He simply intervenes then as He chooses -- as we read very many examples of in the Old Testament.

Wonderfully Isaiah 46, as you quote, when read more fully, shows how God works over time to accomplish His goals. -- to "bring about" --

10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that I will bring about;
what I have planned, that I will do.

As Christ confirmed also:

New International Version
In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”

New Living Translation
But Jesus replied, “My Father is always working, and so am I.”

English Standard Version
But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”


Literally, God works to bring about His plans.

He will do them!
Nothing can stop Him.



So, now you can see how both free will -- human agency in our limited ways -- and God's will both can operate at the same time. That we have God-given ability to make choices is of course God's will -- He created us this way!

Do human beings truly have a free will? | GotQuestions.org

Do human beings truly have a free will? Are human beings simply robots that are programmed to do what God wants?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[John Mullally]

That doesn’t address the question.

You commonly complain that your questions are not answered.

How do you know that we will learn that?

We have a free will. God provides believers a means to escape sin (1 Corinthians 10:3). But just because God permits someone to take His way of escape or not, doesn’t mean that God wants whatever people happen to choose. As an example, the father of the prodigal son permitted his son to leave with his share of the inheritance, but that doesn’t mean the father wanted for his son to make the wrong choice. God doesn’t want any of us to make wrong choices. It’s rather hard to imagine that there could be a Christian theology whereby some advocated the view that God needed or wanted sin, in order for God to be glorified, but that’s Calvinism.

1 Corinthians 10:3 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.​

If this were the case, then God had no real control over the crucifixion. All He could do was foresee it happening. He was reduced to making lemonade out of lemons.

That is how you see it. God had to get Satan to unwittingly crucify Jesus.

1 Corinthians 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

Your assumption is that I think that God caused evil thoughts to take place. May it never be. If you think that Reformed Theology looks at things this way, then you really need to go back and look at what you know about Reformed Theology. It’s way off.

Calvin says that all things take place by God's determination and bidding. Evil thoughts are a thing, thus according to Calvin they take place by God's determination and bidding.

“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

​

“…it is vain to debate about prescience, which it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

​

“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)​

​

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)​

 

[Hammster]

You commonly complain that your questions are not answered.

Only when it’s true. For instance, you posted this:

Someday in Heaven, we will learn that throughout all our lives, we were under various influences—some good and some bad.

And when I asked how do you know we will learn this in heaven, I got this response:

We have a free will. God provides believers a means to escape sin (1 Corinthians 10:3). But just because God permits someone to take His way of escape or not, doesn’t mean that God wants whatever people happen to choose. As an example, the father of the prodigal son permitted his son to leave with his share of the inheritance, but that doesn’t mean the father wanted for his son to make the wrong choice. God doesn’t want any of us to make wrong choices. It’s rather hard to imagine that there could be a Christian theology whereby some advocated the view that God needed or wanted sin, in order for God to be glorified, but that’s Calvinism.

That had nothing to do with my question.

 

[Hammster]

That is how you see it. God had to get Satan to unwittingly crucify Jesus.

1 Corinthians 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Earlier you said

His omniscient foreknowledge, which can convey the meaning that God foreknew the evil intentions of those involved and used it to His own advantage, so as to use man’s means of death as God’s means of life, in order to provide redemption for all.

So which is it? Was it He foreknowledge that led to Christ’s crucifixion? Did God make Satan do it? Did God make Satan make man do it? You’re all over the place here, and your response lacks cohesion.

 

[Hammster]

Calvin says that all things take place by God's determination and bidding. Evil thoughts are a thing, thus according to Calvin they take place by God's determination and bidding.

“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)“…it is vain to debate about prescience, which it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

I know all of that. However, in not one of those excerpts (or in any Reformed Theology teachings) does is say that God causes evil thoughts.

 

[John Mullally]

I know all of that. However, in not one of those excerpts (or in any Reformed Theology teachings) does is say that God causes evil thoughts.

I agree that God does not cause evil thoughts. But Calvin say God does. Here is another quote from Calvin. Here Calvin says that the devil and the ungodly cannot even conceive of mischief unless God commands it. Calvin also says that God forces them to do this "service".

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)​

 

[Hammster]

I agree that God does not cause evil thoughts. But Calvin say God does. Here is another quote from Calvin. Here Calvin says that the devil and the ungodly cannot even conceive of mischief unless God commands it. Calvin also says that God forces them to do this "service".

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)​

He never says “cause” or anything like it. And if you don’t think God forces Satan to do His service, then you’ve obviously not read all of scripture.

 

[John Mullally]

He never says “cause” or anything like it. And if you don’t think God forces Satan to do His service, then you’ve obviously not read all of scripture.

You are not paying close attention to what I am writing because I never said that I think God forces Satan to do His service - I quoted Calvin to show that Calvin was saying that.

Calvin says that Satan and the ungodly cannot even conceive of mischief unless God commands it (see underlined text). "Command" especially in how Calvin uses it here is the strongest version of "cause".

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)​

​

The red letters show that Calvin says that Satan and the ungodly are forced to do God service (see the text in red). What kind of service do you think that is? It is the activity Calvin lists earlier in that same sentence (i.e. mischief).

 

[Hammster]

You are not paying close attention to what I am writing because I never said that I think God forces Satan to do His service - I quoted Calvin to show that Calvin was saying that.

Calvin says that Satan and the ungodly cannot even conceive of mischief unless God commands it (see underlined text). "Command" especially in how Calvin uses it here is the strongest version of "cause".

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)​

​

The red letters show that Calvin says that Satan and the ungodly are forced to do God service (see the text in red). What kind of service do you think that is? It is the activity Calvin lists earlier in that same sentence (i.e. mischief).

Again, if you don’t think God forces Satan to do His service, then you’ve obviously not read all of scripture.

 

[John Mullally]

Again, if you don’t think God forces Satan to do His service, then you’ve obviously not read all of scripture.

I don't know of any scriptures that say that God forces Satan to do His service.

1 John 3:8 says that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. It doesn't make sense that God forces Satan to perform services only to have Jesus destroy those services. Jesus says that a kingdom divided against itself shall not stand (Mark 3:24). The trinity is not divided against itself, having God the Father forcing Satan to do evil works only to have Jesus destroy those works.

In Job, we see God place boundaries on the mischief Satan was allowed to do to Job. But I don't see God telling Satan what to do. It seems that if God is forcing Satan's activities, that would be plainly stated.

Another Point: My argument in Post 53 also shows that Calvin believes God commands the ungodly to do mischief, which means that according to Calvin, God commands the evil thoughts in the ungodly - which you objected to in Post 45 and 50 - I don't want that to be lost.

 

[John Mullally]

Can you explain what you see as a practical difference between influencing our wills, and controlling our wills?.

Agents for God and the devil influence us. The same goes for advertisers. Unlike control, we can resist influence. For example, Act 7:51 says that people commonly resist the Holy Spirit.

Someday in Heaven, we will learn that throughout all our lives, we were under various influences—some good and some bad.

That doesn’t address the question.

You commonly complain that your questions are not answered.

I answered your question in the underlined portion above as influence and control are similar with the one key difference being that influence can be resisted. Your complaint in Post 48 indicates you skipped over my answer to your question as you omitted quoting the underlined portion in Post 48. That seems to be par for the course.

 

[John Mullally]

His omniscient foreknowledge, which can convey the meaning that God foreknew the evil intentions of those involved and used it to His own advantage, so as to use man’s means of death as God’s means of life, in order to provide redemption for all.

That is how you see it. God had to get Satan to unwittingly crucify Jesus.

1 Corinthians 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

So which is it? Was it He foreknowledge that led to Christ’s crucifixion? Did God make Satan do it? Did God make Satan make man do it? You’re all over the place here, and your response lacks cohesion.

I stand by both of my statements and they do not contradict each other - so I am not all over the place.

I have already spoken against God making Satan do anything.

 

[Hammster]

I don't know of any scriptures that say that God forces Satan to do His service.

1 John 3:8 says that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. It doesn't make sense that God forces Satan to perform services only to have Jesus destroy those services. Jesus says that a kingdom divided against itself shall not stand (Mark 3:24). The trinity is not divided against itself, having God the Father forcing Satan to do evil works only to have Jesus destroy those works.

In Job, we see God place boundaries on the mischief Satan was allowed to do to Job. But I don't see God telling Satan what to do. It seems that if God is forcing Satan's activities, that would be plainly stated.

Another Point: My argument in Post 53 also shows that Calvin believes God commands the ungodly to do mischief, which means that according to Calvin, God commands the evil thoughts in the ungodly - which you objected to in Post 45 and 50 - I don't want that to be lost.

You seem stuck on this idea that Reformed Theology teaches that God commands evil thoughts, when there’s nothing to support it outside of your erroneous conclusions. So let me try it this way. Does God restrain evil?

 

[Hammster]

I stand by both of my statements and they do not contradict each other - so I am not all over the place.

I have already spoken against God making Satan do anything.

You said God had to get Satan to do something, and now you are saying that He doesn’t make Satan do anything. That’s a contradiction.

 

[John Mullally]

You said God had to get Satan to do something, and now you are saying that He doesn’t make Satan do anything. That’s a contradiction.

It is not a contradiction God outwitted Satan in this instance (1 Corinthians 2:8). Its not like they work on the same team. The police outwit criminals all the time, but that does not mean they made them confess to a crime.