God is in complete control.

[Neostarwcc]

What's odd is nobody talks about how God directs and feeds the animals or DNA or Molecules or Angels or anything else. But all of a sudden when humans are involved we have to come up with this notion of free will and God's sovereignty comes into question. Which is it? Either God is sovereign above everything or he is not a sovereign God at all. The God of the Bible IS sovereign (Proverbs 16:33)

God predetermined our days on the Earth (Psalm 139:16). God doesn't just know the day you will die. He predetermined it. God declares the beginning from the end and the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). God doesn't just know all of the sins you will commit. If you're among the elect he died for them. After all it was Jesus who said he will give his life for his sheep and for us to rejoice in the fact that our name is written in the book of life (John 10:15, Luke 10:20). They're paid for and not one person who God meant to save will be lost (John 6:37-40).

This does NOT make us robots because we still sin and we still gladly come to our shepherd when he calls us into his flock. We are no less robots than the Angels. If you're offended by what I say you shouldn't be. Those who don't repent something much much worse and more offensive than no free will will happen to you.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

There are many problems with this, probably far to many to discuss in an online forum.
Suffice to say I do not see where God claims to be in control of everything or that He even wants to be. It is true that He is sovereign, meaning He can do anything He wants. But that does not mean He always does. I believe when He created the universe, he imparted part of His sovereignty into His creation. Every element in creation has a right to exist and to interact with every other element.
A rock is on the side of a hill. It rains and snows and eventually the rock is dislodged from the side of the hill. It rolls down the hill and bonks someone on the head. This is called the course of nature. Could God stop it? Yes of course. But since these sorts of things happen every day to everyone, we have to admit that He does not. His dealing with His creation is one of intervention, not of orchestration. That means anything can happen. You might think of it as the default setting. He allows anything to happen by default. He can and sometimes does intervene. But it is obvious He does not.
Salvation is an intervention against universal, default damnation. Healing is an intervention against the default setting of people getting sick. He is not always ordaining or orchestrating every instance of sickness. Sometimes, I believe most of the time, it is just nature taking its course.
The other side of the coin is also problematic. If God is in control of everything, then He is responsible for all evil, moral and physical. People try to him haw around this with talk about "allowing" and "permission." But that is just obfuscation. As you said, He is either in control of everything or He is not.
But the scripture is replete with examples where God is the protector, the savior, the healer, the deliverer, the high tower, the shield, etc.
What or who is he protecting us from? Himself? That would be the case if He was in fact, in control of the arrows that were direct at His own shield. Is He the healer of the sicknesses He put on everyone? Is He protecting us from the evil He Himself is sending our way. At some point we have to declare shenanigans.
In the end, if God is in control of everything, then all of creation is merely the outward manifestation of the mind of God. Nothing is real, genuine, or true. He wrote the story, is playing all the parts (including the devil), directing the cheers of the crowd, and performing His own encore. So I have concluded that this is why we are required to have faith. Otherwise, if you believe or not is moot. Whatever is going to happen would happen anyways. Faith is what pleases God. If He is in control of everything, then faith is impossible because all we have is resignation to the predetermined script from which there is no alteration.

 

[Hammster]

Suffice to say I do not see where God claims to be in control of everything or that He even wants to be. It is true that He is sovereign, meaning He can do anything He wants. But that does not mean He always does.

But our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever He pleases.
— Psalm 115:3

Whatever the Lord pleases, He does,
In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.
— Psalm 135:6

“All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’
— Daniel 4:35

“I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
— Job 42:2

 

[SavedByGrace3]

But our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever He pleases.
— Psalm 115:3

Whatever the Lord pleases, He does,
In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.
— Psalm 135:6

“All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’
— Daniel 4:35

“I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
— Job 42:2

This is true. When He wants to do something He does it. He is sovereign.

 

[Hammster]

This is true. When He wants to do something He does it. He is sovereign.

So He’s in complete control.

 

[public hermit]

What's odd is nobody talks about how God directs and feeds the animals or DNA or Molecules or Angels or anything else. But all of a sudden when humans are involved we have to come up with this notion of free will and God's sovereignty comes into question. Which is it? Either God is sovereign above everything or he is not a sovereign God at all. The God of the Bible IS sovereign (Proverbs 16:33)

God predetermined our days on the Earth (Psalm 139:16). God doesn't just know the day you will die. He predetermined it. God declares the beginning from the end and the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). God doesn't just know all of the sins you will commit. If you're among the elect he died for them. After all it was Jesus who said he will give his life for his sheep and for us to rejoice in the fact that our name is written in the book of life (John 10:15, Luke 10:20). They're paid for and not one person who God meant to save will be lost (John 6:37-40).

This does NOT make us robots because we still sin and we still gladly come to our shepherd when he calls us into his flock. We are no less robots than the Angels. If you're offended by what I say you shouldn't be. Those who don't repent something much much worse and more offensive than no free will will happen to you.

Doesn't this make God the cause of evil? If not, how is God not the cause?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

So He’s in complete control.

Not exactly. Sovereignty does no mean "control" unless actually He exerts His will and intervenes. Otherwise it is "course of nature" all the way.
As the owner and boss at my workplace, I have complete sovereignty. I can, if I choose, do anything, change anything, or stop anything. But that does not mean I always do. Sovereignty does not mean I am always controlling things. It just means I can if I choose to. If I choose not to act. I can. I can just allow things to play themselves out.
If I am driving a car I am in control. But If I take my hand off the steering wheel and my foot of the gas and brakes, I am technically not in control. The car will "run it's course" and what will be will be. I can at any time grab the steering wheel and regain control. But for those brief moments, I am not in control.
So yes, God is sovereign in His creation and con do anything at any time. It is just sometimes, in fact most of the time, He does not. He created the universe and a "course of nature" to determine times, seasons, paths, and fate. He can step in at any time, but a brief glance around the world and our lives, we can see He does not intervene all the time. If He was in compete control all the time one would look around and wonder what kind of God we have???

He would be one of two things.
He would be a God who was attempting to control everything, but was failing terribly. The world is fallen and falling into ruin and chaos.
or:
He would be a God was who was succeeding at controlling of everything and; WOW... what kind of God do we have here indeed?

It seems more obvious that God is not trying to control everything. He is completely sovereign and CAN intervene if He choses, but by the evidence of we see around us, He is not always doing so.

 

[John Mullally]

Here is a quote from A. W. Tozer that reconciles God's Sovereignty with Man's Free Will:

God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, 'What doest thou?' Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.​

 

[Hammster]

Not exactly. Sovereignty does no mean "control" unless actually He exerts His will and intervenes. Otherwise it is "course of nature" all the way.
As the owner and boss at my workplace, I have complete sovereignty. I can, if I choose, do anything, change anything, or stop anything. But that does not mean I always do. Sovereignty does not mean I am always controlling things. It just means I can if I choose to. If I choose not to act. I can. I can just allow things to play themselves out.
If I am driving a car I am in control. But If I take my hand off the steering wheel and my foot of the gas and brakes, I am technically not in control. The car will "run it's course" and what will be will be. I can at any time grab the steering wheel and regain control. But for those brief moments, I am not in control.
So yes, God is sovereign in His creation and con do anything at any time. It is just sometimes, in fact most of the time, He does not. He created the universe and a "course of nature" to determine times, seasons, paths, and fate. He can step in at any time, but a brief glance around the world and our lives, we can see He does not intervene all the time. If He was in compete control all the time one would look around and wonder what kind of God we have???

He would be one of two things.
He would be a God who was attempting to control everything, but was failing terribly. The world is fallen and falling into ruin and chaos.
or:
He would be a God was who was succeeding at controlling of everything and; WOW... what kind of God do we have here indeed?

It seems more obvious that God is not trying to control everything. He is completely sovereign and CAN intervene if He choses, but by the evidence of we see around us, He is not always doing so.

If he chooses not act, doesn’t that mean that whatever happens is what He wants ti happens?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If he chooses not act, doesn’t that mean that whatever happens is what He wants ti happens?

The question is does His relinquishing of control always go the way He wants it to go? If it does, then did He really relinquish control? If I release that steering wheel while the car is in a set course, then have I really relinquished control? No, I just built a pre-determined path, and steered car car into it. I am still in control and we are back at square one. But what if it does not go the way He wanted it to go? What if the man he created ate the fruit he was not supposed to eat. What if the savior decided not to do the will of the father in the garden. What if the archangel decided not to worship Him but instead decided to become a god himself. All these had to be able to happen else the entire creation is a sham and not a genuine creation. It is just a play, and pre-written production that sits on God's nightstand. Nothing is real. I might suggest that it would be less than satisfying to God, whose desire is to have his creation worship Him with genuine spirit and truth... not a scripted play.
My suggestion is that this is a creation of the possible. There was a genuine risk in all this. We saw Jesus empty Himself of His divine rights and allow Himself to be subject to not only human passions and fears, but suffering and death itself. We also know Jesus was a refection of God the Father. He always and only did what He saw the Father do. So what did Jesus see the Father do that led Him to take such a course? I submit that when God created the universe, He injected some of His sovereignty into every created thing. Every created thing has the right to exist and the right to interact with every other created thing. He emptied Himself of some of His sovereignty. He placed these things into a "course of nature" filled with rules and limitations. He finished His work and let things just take their natural course. And there was that risk. I think we are seeing that risk play out every day. In the end He wins because Jesus did go do the will of God and He did redeem all things. But I think it is wrong to say God is controlling all things. If He did, things would not look the way they do.

 

[Hammster]

The question is does His relinquishing of control always go the way He wants it to go? If it does, then did He really relinquish control? If I release that steering wheel while the car is in a set course, then have I really relinquished control? No, I just built a pre-determined path, and steered car car into it. I am still in control and we are back at square one. But what if it does not go the way He wanted it to go? What if the man he created ate the fruit he was not supposed to eat. What if the savior decided not to do the will of the father in the garden. What if the archangel decided not to worship Him but instead decided to become a god himself. All these had to be able to happen else the entire creation is a sham and not a genuine creation. It is just a play, and pre-written production that sits on God's nightstand. Nothing is real. I might suggest that it would be less than satisfying to God, whose desire is to have his creation worship Him with genuine spirit and truth... not a scripted play.
My suggestion is that this is a creation of the possible. There was a genuine risk in all this. We saw Jesus empty Himself of His divine rights and allow Himself to be subject to not only human passions and fears, but suffering and death itself. We also know Jesus was a refection of God the Father. He always and only did what He saw the Father do. So what did Jesus see the Father do that led Him to take such a course? I submit that when God created the universe, He injected some of His sovereignty into every created thing. Every created thing has the right to exist and the right to interact with every other created thing. He emptied Himself of some of His sovereignty. He placed these things into a "course of nature" filled with rules and limitations. He finished His work and let things just take their natural course. And there was that risk. I think we are seeing that risk play out every day. In the end He wins because Jesus did go do the will of God and He did redeem all things. But I think it is wrong to say God is controlling all things. If He did, things would not look the way they do.

It’s established that God does whatever He pleases. And that His will cannot be thwarted. So God not intervening in a certain situation is still an active choice on His part, and just because we cannot see the outcome of that choice doesn’t mean that there’s no implication.

Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
— Isaiah 46:10

He has declared all things, from beginning to end. This means everything is in His control.

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.
— James 4:13-14

This is a warning against presuming that God isn’t in complete control.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

It’s established that God does whatever He pleases. And that His will cannot be thwarted. So God not intervening in a certain situation is still an active choice on His part, and just because we cannot see the outcome of that choice doesn’t mean that there’s no implication.

Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
— Isaiah 46:10

He has declared all things, from beginning to end. This means everything is in His control.

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.
— James 4:13-14

This is a warning against presuming that God isn’t in complete control.

I understand what you are saying, but I think you are reading too much into these verses. Yes God knows the end from the beginning, and yes He can do anything He choses. I do not dispute either of these. But neither of these concepts say He does everything from the beginning.
Thanks for the thoughts.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

(STAFF EDITED)
I don't think he was dismissing. I think these thoughts about God "being in control of everything" have been hammered into us since we were children and most people cannot, or are afraid to think of it in any other way. Like so many other assumptions and mistaken notions, we build up structures around these errors that support them and form conclusions that are greater errors. So we end up thinking God kills our children and makes us and keeps us sick for His glory. As if being sick and a deceased child are reasons for glory. I think people are desperate to see God active in their lives, so desperate that they will assign such incidents to Him just so they can feel like there is purpose for their suffering and God is dealing with them. They want badly to see purpose in their suffering and pain. Some have built up the concept of "sovereignty" to such an extent that it expands the concept to absolute and perpetual control of everything. Sovereignty overrules everything including His benevolence. IOWs to many of our brothers and sisters it is more important in their doctrine that He be in control of everything than it is for Him to be love, merciful, and good. I am not saying this as a criticism or a derogatory. In their minds they see this as glorifying Him. But I think that is too simplistic. Common sense would tell us that beating your children to a pulp to get "glory" would not accomplish that goal. I had a neighbor who beat his children bloody. I assure you nobody came away thinking how glorious that fellow was.

 

[Hammster]

I understand what you are saying, but I think you are reading too much into these verses. Yes God knows the end from the beginning, and yes He can do anything He choses. I do not dispute either of these. But neither of these concepts say He does everything from the beginning.
Thanks for the thoughts.

Except where it does.

You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
— Hebrews 2:8

 

[Hammster]

Well, that was fun.

 

[John Mullally]

It’s established that God does whatever He pleases. And that His will cannot be thwarted. So God not intervening in a certain situation is still an active choice on His part, and just because we cannot see the outcome of that choice doesn’t mean that there’s no implication.

Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
— Isaiah 46:10

God can prophetically declare the “end from the beginning” because He has neither an end nor a beginning, being timeless and eternal. The Bible does not state that God caused the end from the beginning, though Calvinists teach that that’s the only way God could infallibly know the end from the beginning.

Declaring and causing are not the same things. For example, according to 1 Corinthians 15:1, Paul makes known (or declares) the gospel. So, does that mean that Paul caused the gospel? Or, instead does it mean that he is revealing what the gospel already is? This is why it is improper to automatically conflate declaring with causing.

God neither caused nor determined the devil’s rebellion. Instead, God allows a meddling like the devil and his demons the opportunity to try and fail to disrupt God’s plan and purpose, and God overcomes them because He is all-knowing, all-wise and all-powerful—and certainly not because God plays both sides of the proverbial chessboard through exhaustive, meticulous determinism as Calvinism teaches.

He has declared all things, from beginning to end. This means everything is in His control.

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.
— James 4:13-14

This is a warning against presuming that God isn’t in complete control.

James 4:13-15 is not teaching exhaustive determinism. Rather, it is teaching submission. It challenges us to think as Christians ought. In our finite lives, we make our own plans and push to achieve our own goals, but James 4:15 reminds us to seek and to submit to whatever God may be doing in our lives. Refer also to 1 Corinthians 4:19.

1 Corinthians 4:19 But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have.​

 

[SavedByGrace3]

God can prophetically declare the “end from the beginning” because He has neither an end nor a beginning, being timeless and eternal. The Bible does not state that God caused the end from the beginning, though Calvinists teach that that’s the only way God could infallibly know the end from the beginning.

Declaring and causing are not the same things. For example, according to 1 Corinthians 15:1, Paul makes known (or declares) the gospel. So, does that mean that Paul caused the gospel? Or, instead does it mean that he is revealing what the gospel already is? This is why it is improper to automatically conflate declaring with causing.

God neither caused nor determined the devil’s rebellion. Instead, God allows a meddling like the devil and his demons the opportunity to try and fail to disrupt God’s plan and purpose, and God overcomes them because He is all-knowing, all-wise and all-powerful—and certainly not because God plays both sides of the proverbial chessboard through exhaustive, meticulous determinism as Calvinism teaches.

James 4:13-15 is not teaching exhaustive determinism. Rather, it is teaching submission. It challenges us to think as Christians ought. In our finite lives, we make our own plans and push to achieve our own goals, but James 4:15 reminds us to seek and to submit to whatever God may be doing in our lives. Refer also to 1 Corinthians 4:19.

1 Corinthians 4:19 But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have.​

I am not sure what that fact is so hard to understand???

 

[John Mullally]

Well, that was fun.

The fun continues.

Declaring and causing are not the same things.

I am not sure what that fact is so hard to understand???

I agree. But Calvinism, which relies on its own echo chamber, argues for conflating Declaring and Causing (as seen in Posts 11), so it is worth my giving the argument.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Doesn't this make God the cause of evil? If not, how is God not the cause?

This is one of the atheist's favorite arguments against God. They reason if God is a God of complete control, then why is there evil? I am not talking about the evil men do out of their free will. I am talking about the evil of a volcano killing thousands. I am talking about cancer, handicapped children, and don't forget satan. If God is good, and is in complete control of absolutely everything, then why all this evil in the creation? The "God is in control of everything" adherent has no reasonable answer to this. When we understand that God is not in control to the degree they want Him to be and He in fact does not want to be... then it begins to make more sense. For the umpteenth time, yes, He is sovereign, which only means He can do anything He wants. But a quick glance around tells us our loving benevolent God is not the cause of what we see in this fallen falling world.
It is not "being faithful" to deny the reality of the world we see around us. It would be better to just say "I don't know why there is evil in the world" than to ascribe it to our loving heavenly Father and our Lord Jesus. I think it is nigh unto blasphemy to say God is doing all this evil in the earth and even to His own children. That does not exactly inspire people to come to Him. And if He does all this evil, then Jesus did a pretty poor job of showing that aspect. All He did was "went around doing GOOD because God was with Him."

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The fun continues.


I agree. But Calvinism largely relies on conflating Declaring and Causing (see Posts 11), so it is worth the argument.

I believe the control doctrine is the product of lazy thinking and lazy faith. It is just easier to blame God for everything in a misguided attempt to rationalize a warped kind of Glory for Him. Instead of having faith in a good God and believing God will save us and deliver us from every evil. it is just easier to ascribe those evils to Him and sit back and "faithfully" endure the evil. In this the person enduring the pain is gloried as being oh-so faithful and religious, while God is portrayed an evil monster. What would we think of an earthly parent that did that? What if a father took his kids out in the yard and beat them with a stick, expecting his children to thank him for it and thereby derive glory in their suffering and their willingness to suffer for him. Would we praise such a father for his actions? I think not.
Jesus came to show us the exact image of the Father. Never did Jesus show us anything approaching that sort of evil.