God is "Good"

-V- said:

What is "good"?

Is it not considered an act of justice to put a criminal in prison? Justice is good.

Click to expand...

Yes but we are likening (so I thought) prison to hell

And both are clearly designed for those who break the rules and don't do what they are supposed to do

miknik5 said:

Yes but we are likening (so I thought) prison to hell

And both are clearly designed for those who break the rules and don't do what they are supposed to do

Click to expand...

Ok. So?

-V- said:

Ok. So?

Click to expand...

Because I found your post double talk and not clear.

First you say his question is irrelevant because it is what it is

This I took to at first to mean that it doesnt matter ones thoughts about hell being good or bad because it exists regardless

And then, in your second portion of your post you seem to say that you're not sure if hell is good or bad

So in the first part of your post, a reader gets a clear understanding (so they think) that you are saying there is a hell

But in the second part of your post, it is you who seem to flip your hands and say it is irrelevant

-V-
Do you believe there is a Heaven and there is a hell.

And the LORD JESUS CHRIST as SAVIOR came to bring us back to GOD so that those who believe in HIM as LORD and SAVIOR will have LIFE?

Even if and after and when they physically

(edited: nvm, have to check something first)

miknik5 said:

-V-
Do you believe there is a Heaven and there is a hell.

And the LORD JESUS CHRIST as SAVIOR came to bring us back to GOD so that those who believe in HIM as LORD and SAVIOR will have LIFE?

Even if and after and when they physically

Click to expand...

Yes. (Not once did I ever say nor imply otherwise.)

-V- said:

The words "because it is what it is" were never said by me.


That is NOT what I said at all. Not even close. What I said was that the differences she is pointing out between a train and hell are irrelevant to the question she is asking.


Nope, never said that either.


I have no idea how you are getting that out of anything I said. Not once have I ever said or implied hell is irrelevant.

Click to expand...

I should have known not to take a short cut

Please explain what you were saying in the below post because apparently I misunderstood when I responded to your "nothing in there about hell being good or bad"

-V- said:

The difference is irrelevant to your question. One being eternal and one not doesn't change the motivation behind someone warning you of either one.


Nothing in there about hell being good or bad. So, once again, the differences you're pointing out don't seem relevant to the question you're asking.

Click to expand...

Wasn't his question:
is hell good or bad?

-V- said:

(edited: nvm, have to check something first)

Click to expand...

I'll wait

I could have misunderstood you but I am asking you to clarify now

Prison and hell would never be confused as being good

-V- said:

The difference is irrelevant to your question. One being eternal and one not doesn't change the motivation behind someone warning you of either one.


Nothing in there about hell being good or bad. So, once again, the differences you're pointing out don't seem relevant to the question you're asking.

Click to expand...

Okay

I owe you an apology

I went back and read your posts and realize you weren't saying that it doesn't matter whether hell is good or bad

You were saying it doesn't matter if he does

Please forgive me for not following you

I'm sorry
I'll never do that again

I'll never come in the middle of a discussion without at least looking at all the prior posts of the participants of that post before opening my mouth

miknik5 said:

I'll wait

I could have misunderstood you but I am asking you to clarify now

Prison and hell would never be confused as being good

Click to expand...

I was multitasking, and add to that the fact that there is more than one thread started by the OP that I've been involved in... I had to make sure I was discussing what I thought I was discussing. Part of the confusion resulted from (I just now noticed) the OP included some of my remarks from a different thread in her reply in this thread... so, topics are getting mixed up.

Prison and hell would never be confused as being good

Click to expand...

Here I have to ask, what do you mean by "good"?

Both places exist to carry out justice. Justice is certainly a good thing. In that sense, both prison and hell are good.

I owe you an apology
I went back and read your posts and realize you weren't saying that it doesn't matter whether hell is good or bad
You were saying it doesn't matter if he does
Please forgive me for not following you

Click to expand...

No, that's not what I was saying was irrelevant. What is irrelevant (and this is where the different thread comes into play) are the differences between getting hit by a train and going to hell.

There is another thread where the OP (UnderPar) accuses Christians of simply using fear of hell to get people to convert, saying it's nothing but a scare tactic.

I told her that if someone warned her to get off the train tracks before getting hit by a train, is that nothing more than a "scare tactic", or is it possible that their motivation is rather that they care about you and don't want you to get hurt.

She replied that the train scenario is different because the train only hits you once and is over with, whereas hell lasts forever.

(This is where the "irrelevant" thing comes in.) That difference is irrelevant to the motivation. There is nothing about the fact that hell is permanent that means someone warning you about it is nothing but a scare tactic.

She then made a comment about criminals becoming reformed and leaving the prison, which I said was irrelevant, because that has nothing to do with hell being good/bad.

-V- said:

I was multitasking, and add to that the fact that there is more than one thread started by the OP that I've been involved in... I had to make sure I was discussing what I thought I was discussing. Part of the confusion resulted from (I just now noticed) the OP included some of my remarks from a different thread in her reply in this thread... so, topics are getting mixed up.


Here I have to ask, what do you mean by "good"?

Both places exist to carry out justice. Justice is certainly a good thing. In that sense, both prison and hell are good.


No, that's not what I was saying was irrelevant. What is irrelevant (and this is where the different thread comes into play) are the differences between getting hit by a train and going to hell.

There is another thread where the OP (UnderPar) accuses Christians of simply using fear of hell to get people to convert, saying it's nothing but a scare tactic.

I told her that if someone warned her to get off the train tracks before getting hit by a train, is that nothing more than a "scare tactic", or is it possible that their motivation is rather that they care about you and don't want you to get hurt.

She replied that the train scenario is different because the train only hits you once and is over with, whereas hell lasts forever.

(This is where the "irrelevant" thing comes in.) That difference is irrelevant to the motivation. There is nothing about the fact that hell is permanent that means someone warning you about it is nothing but a scare tactic.

She then made a comment about criminals becoming reformed and leaving the prison, which I said was irrelevant, because that has nothing to do with hell being good/bad.

Click to expand...

You don't owe me an explanation

I went back from the first post and realized that I misinterpreted what you said because I didn't have all the information

So sorry about that

Actually...Thank you for the explanation and for clearing that up for me

UnderPar said:

So was mine, but while I was a Christian. Then I discovered a middle path, and took it. It costed me everything, I was on the streets without shoes. Calling out to Jesus, he wasn't there. So I had make and break, and leave everything and everyone.
When I arrived in Brisbane I was still babbling religion, and I could see a mirror of what I was doing to completely new people.

Then I axed the rest of my beliefs, in order to save people from my old fundy ways.

Click to expand...

Hello again Underpar,

You ask that I no longer mention hell. OK. Would you mind if I please discuss an earlier post of yours repeated above?

I too have wasted much time of my life as a Christian trying to handle the faith as a mere religion trying to line up with the words of people instead of as a meaningful relationship with Him that paid our sin debt and made peace.

Please remember Jesus’ words to people of His day:

”Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”

In other words, religion with no personal relationship with Jesus is worthless. I say this from experience. Do you remember the phrase, “Rules without relationship only brings rebellion? The New Testament was not yet written when Jesus made His statement above. We thus know that Jesus is found in the OT also. The “strict” Pharisees did not knew Him in scripture because they did not know His grace.

The religious leaders of Jesus’ day (not the Roman soldiers?) were the objects of Jesus’ harshest criticism. There’s a vast difference between much pressure for one to do such and such a thing right to keep from being lost and a peaceful sense of relief from guilt because the paid debt due to forgiveness. Undue pressure only leads to hypocrisy that only wears one to shreds!

People hold grudges. Jesus values us and is ready to redeem instead of holding grudges.

May I ask if you would please do a favor for lil ol me? Just for me, please? Please be at peace with yourself and throw away those loud, scary clanging alarms in your conscience that only fill you with unnecessary fear. I speak from experience. It is through this peace that God of peace speaks to comfort you. Then you will hear Him in the scriptures!

As I say again, throw away the bad part that hinders proper operation of the machine. A bad battery will stall your car! Try for years to start it and it will not move until you replace the battery. You don’t throw the car away because of the battery do you?

effalo said:

Hello again Underpar,

You ask that I no longer mention hell. OK. Would you mind if I please discuss an earlier post of yours repeated above?

I too have wasted much time of my life as a Christian trying to handle the faith as a mere religion trying to line up with the words of people instead of as a meaningful relationship with Him that paid our sin debt and made peace.

Please remember Jesus’ words to people of His day:

”Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”

In other words, religion with no personal relationship with Jesus is worthless. I say this from experience. Do you remember the phrase, “Rules without relationship only brings rebellion? The New Testament was not yet written when Jesus made His statement above. We thus know that Jesus is found in the OT also. The “strict” Pharisees did not knew Him in scripture because they did not know His grace.

The religious leaders of Jesus’ day (not the Roman soldiers?) were the objects of Jesus’ harshest criticism. There’s a vast difference between much pressure for one to do such and such a thing right to keep from being lost and a peaceful sense of relief from guilt because the paid debt due to forgiveness. Undue pressure only leads to hypocrisy that only wears one to shreds!

People hold grudges. Jesus values us and is ready to redeem instead of holding grudges.

May I ask if you would please do a favor for lil ol me? Just for me, please? Please be at peace with yourself and throw away those loud, scary clanging alarms in your conscience that only fill you with unnecessary fear. I speak from experience. It is through this peace that God of peace speaks to comfort you. Then you will hear Him in the scriptures!

As I say again, throw away the bad part that hinders proper operation of the machine. A bad battery will stall your car! Try for years to start it and it will not move until you replace the battery. You don’t throw the car away because of the battery do you?

Click to expand...

Addendum.

Underpar, Please forgive me for leaving out from my last post what I’m about to say. I hope that you are still here.

You said,

Underpar said:

“I was on the streets without shoes. Calling out to Jesus, he wasn't there.”

Click to expand...

I too have experienced times when Jesus appeared as if as far from me as east is from the west and that giving up appeared the most practical thing to do. But times such as this are when one makes his most critical, vital, and most consequential decisions. None of us escape these difficult times. They are opportunities for us to exercise our fullest trust in the Lord that’s pure and are the least times to give up!

Only remember that you gave Him up, not Him giving you up. When Jesus ask the twelve disciples if they would leave Him as the others did, Peter ask, “Lord, to whom shall we go?” Where are you now?

Tribulation, although harsh and uncomfortable at the moment, is the thing that either deepens our relationship with God or severs it depending on our choice. Are we or are we not fair weather friends to the Lord? If we endure we will experience depth that would have not been possible otherwise. To give up the gospel is to unknowingly give up what’s greater than all of the world’s treasures to experience devastating shame and loss. The gospel is too precious and you are too precious to miss out on it. A return to Jesus does not necessitate your return to whatever may have been unfruitful in guiding you. That you must stay away from.

ELD

UnderPar said:

Is hell a good or bad place?

If it is a good place, then why.
If it is a bad place, then why.

Or answer the poll.

Click to expand...

It depends. If you're in hell, it's a very bad place (dark, hot, isolated, eternal). If you're not, but are headed there, it's still a very bad place, though it is easier en route to pretend it's not. If you are a born-again child of God in paradise, Hell stands as a demonstration of the perfection of God's justice and holiness and as a testament to our deep and vile wickedness. If you're this side of the grave but headed to an eternity with God, Hell is a strong provocation to you to tell others of the Gospel (or it should be). Until one sees and understands reality with the clarity of one who has, through death, fully entered the supernatural, spiritual realm, Hell remains a somewhat poorly-defined prospect, however.

How can a good God create a Hell for the wicked to suffer? How can He not? Is it a good judge who allows crime to go unpunished? Is it a good judge who neglects to give justice to those who have been wronged? Is it a good judge who turns a blind eye to evil? Of course not. Goodness in God necessarily entails that He be just. And His justness requires that He judge and punish our sin.

How can God, being good, make Hell eternal? Isn't that an over-reaction to our sin? How can a finite sin warrant an eternal consequence? Well, how equipped are we to judge clearly the depth of our own sin? We are steeped in sin. It is in and around us all the time. We often enjoy sin, and encourage others in it, too. Are we likely, then, to understand just how awful, how wicked, our sin is? Obviously not. But God gives us some light on just how terrible our sin is by the eternal and fiery punishment He renders upon it. Our sin must be far, far worse than we think it is if God punishes it with eternal Hell!

Is our sin truly finite in nature? Not if it is committed against an infinite God - which it is. All our sin is ultimately against our holy Creator who commands us to do no evil.

Can we as imperfect creatures ever perfectly atone for our sin as Jesus did? No. Imperfection only give rise to more imperfection. Like begets like. But those who spurn Christ's perfect atonement for their sin, must atone for their sin themselves in Hell. Their imperfection makes doing so an eternal effort, however.

God does no wrong in punishing sin with eternal Hell - especially when He has provided at great cost to Christ a way of escape from that punishment for any who will take it. Hell is the just and appropriate response to those who have rejected God's grace, and mercy, and love, turning to their own way and will and the sin and darkness that results.