God is Good

[quatona]

Some may know the answers to these questions, only He could answer them all for certain. These things happen regardless, so how you desire to explain their purpose rest on your own understanding. Can you answer the questions you presented or the following?

Probably not in the way you would like me to.

Can you tell me the true purpose for my mother committing suicide when I was 20?

You are assuming a "true purpose" beyond her purpose in doing it? I don´t. I don´t even know that your question is meaningful, to begin with. But if hard-pressed to assume such a purpose on part of an omnipotent, omniscient creatorgod indeed I have problems coming up with something charitable. I mean, even if this were to serve an unknowable "greater good", such a god could have easily achieved this greater good directly and without sacrificing one of his creatures to suffering and death.

Can you explain to me why my (at the time) 9 month old daughter's brain was attacked and severely damaged by a rare virus? No, you can't answer these, and no amount of human reasoning or science can.

Of course science can give you an medical explanation. However, this is obivously not the answer you are looking for.
My answer is pretty much the same as above.

I believe that these 'bad' events in my life did or do serve a bigger purpose in the grand scheme and they can easily be explained as God's will to bring about 'good' in another's life or the world.

I am sorry for all those losses you have experienced, and far be it from me to take away the consolace you find in your ideas.
However, you carried your personal things as an argument into a conversation about the validity of "explanations" - and I have to tell you that I find your explanation totally unconvicing. Are you saying that god can´t achieve his "greater goods" without inflicting suffering on his creatures? What happened to "with God all is possible"?

 

[Dave-W]

And yet, isn't it amazing how well that "thinking" is serving us? Can you think of an "answer" we have discovered that didn't come from ourselves?

Absolutely. Have you ever read Handel's notes on writing the Messiah Oratorio?

And even Einstein claimed that the concept of Relativity came to him by supernatural revelation.

 

[GillDouglas]

That isn't true. I don't want to appear insensitive, but we do understand quite a lot about the emotional issues that sometimes drive a person to take their life. We also understand quite a lot about viruses and their manner of transmission.

But we're not asking what caused my mother to kill herself, I already know that it was due to my abusive step-father. We are asking for what purpose did she die?

Good. Please "easily" explain how the suicide of your mother and the brain infection of your child was part of your god's plan of "bringing about good".

My daughter's condition has affected many people in a positive way. Despite her brain damage she is a happy, fun and excited little girl who brings joy in everyone she meets. My mother's suicide affected me more than any other event in my life. It was the major reason why I was angry with a God I didn't understand for most of my life. I believe He has used that event to shape me into the man I am, to be a loving and giving husband to my wife as much as I can be. It may have affected my sister in an ultimately positive way as well.

 

[GillDouglas]

Of course science can give you an medical explanation. However, this is obivously not the answer you are looking for.
My answer is pretty much the same as above.

Not how, but why.

I am sorry for all those losses you have experienced, and far be it from me to take away the consolace you find in your ideas. However, you carried your personal things as an argument into a conversation about the validity of "explanations" - and I have to tell you that I find your explanation totally unconvicing. Are you saying that god can´t achieve his "greater goods" without inflicting suffering on his creatures? What happened to "with God all is possible"?

Using personal experience is the only way I can demonstrate how a bad thing could to used for good in a bigger picture. I could use examples like Americans killing Germans are bad, but doing so for the liberation of France during WWII, etc. etc. was a good thing in the bigger picture.

 

[quatona]

Not how, but why.

You are asking for an intention, right? So the question is already loaded with the conclusion "there must be an intentional author behind it".

Using personal experience is the only way I can demonstrate how a bad thing could to used for good in a bigger picture. I could use examples like Americans killing Germans are bad, but doing so for the liberation of France during WWII, etc. etc. was a good thing in the bigger picture.

But, well, you were explicitly appealing to reasons beyond your understanding (i.e. reasons that are intelligible to an omni creatorgod). You aren´t trying to tell me that god could not have achieved the liberation of France (or prevented its occupation, in the first place) with a mere snip of his finger?
So, while I certainly have an idea what accepting minor damage for a greater good means in terms of humans with limited capabilities and resources, I have no idea how it could possibly make sense in regards to an omni creator of everything.

 

[SteveB28]

Absolutely. Have you ever read Handel's notes on writing the Messiah Oratorio?

And even Einstein claimed that the concept of Relativity came to him by supernatural revelation.

'Messiah' was written by a human being. The theories of relativity were developed by a human being.

Thank you for arguing my point.

 

[GillDouglas]

You are asking for an intention, right? So the question is already loaded with the conclusion "there must be an intentional author behind it".

All things have a purpose, there is no coincidence, chance or luck.

 

[quatona]

All things have a purpose, there is no coincidence, chance or luck.

Says who?

 

[Dave-W]

'Messiah' was written by a human being. The theories of relativity were developed by a human being.

You said "from," not "through."

Handel claimed he just wrote down (as in note dictation) the entire oratorio without coming up with any of it himself. The time frame alone says this was the only way he could have written the entire score. So while it came THROUGH him, it did not come FROM him.

So I guess that would be the godly equivalent of the demonically inspired "automatic writing" popular with the New Age crowd a few decades back.

 

[SteveB28]

You said "from," not "through."

Handel claimed he just wrote down (as in note dictation) the entire oratorio without coming up with any of it himself. The time frame alone says this was the only way he could have written the entire score. So while it came THROUGH him, it did not come FROM him.

So I guess that would be the godly equivalent of the demonically inspired "automatic writing" popular with the New Age crowd a few decades back.

Personal anecdotes are not evidence. They occupy a space under the heading of 'unsupported claims'. The only clear evidence that we have for the creation of 'Messiah', or for any work of art, architecture, science, etc, is that they were the work of human beings.

 

[Dave-W]

So you are calling Handel a liar?

OR are you just rejecting anything that does not fit into your world view?

 

[SteveB28]

All things have a purpose, there is no coincidence, chance or luck.

That may be what you would like to be the case, but you have no grounds upon which to claim it.

 

[SteveB28]

So you are calling Handel a liar?

OR are you just rejecting anything that does not fit into your world view?

I am rejecting claims which lack any evidential support.

Like the claim "God is good".

 

[quatona]

Absolutely. Have you ever read Handel's notes on writing the Messiah Oratorio?

And even Einstein claimed that the concept of Relativity came to him by supernatural revelation.

That´s exactly the same thing as with me and my posts on CF!! They don´t come FROM me but THROUGH me.

 

[Xalith]

I didn't ask you about Abraham's decision. I didn't ask you about your god's decision. I asked you for your decision! What would you do if you were convinced that your God was commanding you to slaughter your firstborn?

I didn't avoid the question on purpose, though I would have to say that my answer might be irrelevant because I do not have any sons or daughters; I'm a single virgin.

However, if God appeared to me on a cloud or what-not like He did with Abraham and commanded it, well... I pray that I would have the faith to do exactly as God tells me, knowing that God has a reason that He would require such, or have faith that God is just testing me (but yet be prepared for the potential that it isn't "just a test").

Is it Good that God would ask me to do that? Of course. Everything He does is Good. We only see a small sliver of the entire picture. God sees everything, He sees the entire picture. If He does something that doesn't seem "Good" in our hearts, there's a reason for it, and it is probably because there's something we don't know, something we don't see. We can only judge the Here&Now based on things we've come to know up until this point.

God, however, has always been there, is there now, and will always be there, and He knows everything that has happened, knows everything that is happening now, and foreknows everything that will happen. Reading the Bible teaches one that He deliberately designs things to work out. He called Abraham to the mountain (btw, if you check out one of Dr. Chuck Missler's videos having to do with the Book of Genesis, he will point out that God called Abraham to the very same mountain Christ was crucified on by using various data from the Bible and also secular sources, topography, etc.

Anyways, God called Abraham to that mountain, in a deliberate design. Why did he do that? IMO: He did it to foreshadow what would happen a few thousand years later. He is willing to do (and prepared/premeditated to do) what most of us would stumble over. He is willing to go to ridiculous lengths to provide us with a way out of our predicament.

The Bible is filled with patterns and foreshadowing. God uses these tools to tell the reader (especially if you were able to read Hebrew) that the ultimate designer of the Old and the New Testament are one and the same -- The Holy Spirit. Both come together as one whole unit and all of its 66 books are interconnected, and the removal of any one book of the Bible breaks the whole thing apart, and none of it makes real sense.

I could go on about the Hebrew Foreshadowing thing, but I've digressed enough for now.

I'll just suffice it to say that the writer of the first 5 books in the Bible (Moses as inspired by the Holy Spirit) knew the places, names, and things that were going on around 25-30AD a thousand or more years prior.

 

[asherahSamaria]

I didn't avoid the question on purpose, though I would have to say that my answer might be irrelevant because I do not have any sons or daughters; I'm a single virgin.

However, if God appeared to me on a cloud or what-not like He did with Abraham and commanded it, well... I pray that I would have the faith to do exactly as God tells me, knowing that God has a reason that He would require such, or have faith that God is just testing me (but yet be prepared for the potential that it isn't "just a test").

Is it Good that God would ask me to do that? Of course. Everything He does is Good. We only see a small sliver of the entire picture. God sees everything, He sees the entire picture. If He does something that doesn't seem "Good" in our hearts, there's a reason for it, and it is probably because there's something we don't know, something we don't see. We can only judge the Here&Now based on things we've come to know up until this point.

God, however, has always been there, is there now, and will always be there, and He knows everything that has happened, knows everything that is happening now, and foreknows everything that will happen. Reading the Bible teaches one that He deliberately designs things to work out. He called Abraham to the mountain (btw, if you check out one of Dr. Chuck Missler's videos having to do with the Book of Genesis, he will point out that God called Abraham to the very same mountain Christ was crucified on by using various data from the Bible and also secular sources, topography, etc.

Anyways, God called Abraham to that mountain, in a deliberate design. Why did he do that? IMO: He did it to foreshadow what would happen a few thousand years later. He is willing to do (and prepared/premeditated to do) what most of us would stumble over. He is willing to go to ridiculous lengths to provide us with a way out of our predicament.

The Bible is filled with patterns and foreshadowing. God uses these tools to tell the reader (especially if you were able to read Hebrew) that the ultimate designer of the Old and the New Testament are one and the same -- The Holy Spirit. Both come together as one whole unit and all of its 66 books are interconnected, and the removal of any one book of the Bible breaks the whole thing apart, and none of it makes real sense.

I could go on about the Hebrew Foreshadowing thing, but I've digressed enough for now.

"However, if God appeared to me on a cloud or what-not like He did with Abraham and commanded it, well... I pray that I would have the faith to do exactly as God tells me" - I honestly have huge difficulty in understanding how anyone could think this way. What if it was "just voices in your head"? How could you be sure you could tell the difference? Would you really set aside any humanity / morality you may have because of an instruction from a perceived authority?

 

[Strathos]

"However, if God appeared to me on a cloud or what-not like He did with Abraham and commanded it, well... I pray that I would have the faith to do exactly as God tells me" - I honestly have huge difficulty in understanding how anyone could think this way. What if it was "just voices in your head"? How could you be sure you could tell the difference? Would you really set aside any humanity / morality you may have because of an instruction from a perceived authority?

If you're going to appeal to solipsism, I might as well ask how you know for sure that every time you type on the computer, you're not just hallucinating this message board and what you're really doing is pressing buttons that activate gas chambers to kill innocent people.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Something about this statement can´t be quite accurate - unless your position is that there can never be a standard for anything.
You are postulating an infinite regress. Assuming for a moment there is such a standard external to (or beyond) God - it will suffer from the same problem: It´s either "arbitrary" (in that it has no standard beyond itself) or it requires a standard beyond itself.

My point with this thread is that when people evaluate God's character (and determine He is good) they use their own sense of what is right and wrong. You can't make the statement "God is good" without a sense of what good is and you can't just let God decide what is good, otherwise you have no way to determine if what He does actually is good or not.

 

[quatona]

My point with this thread is that when people evaluate God's character (and determine He is good) they use their own sense of what is right and wrong. You can't make the statement "God is good" without a sense of what good is and you can't just let God decide what is good, otherwise you have no way to determine if what He does actually is good or not.

I addressed this in a previous post, Golden Boy. The statement isn´t supposed to be the result of an evaluation. It asserts as a premise that God is the standard for good.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

I do not see why they wouldn't be good even if they could come by other means. I can think of the many things my wife does and gives to me not deserving any of it yet consider them to be good. But as @TheyCallMeDave said, the basis for what is good is God, the original in this world.

Then can you see how you determine things to be "good" by their own merit? There's no need for God to do something for it to be good, and there's no need for God to tell you what is good or bad or you wouldn't have made the judgment that those things are good, since you'd have no real idea what "good" is and God could easily match His own standards.