God is Good

[JonFromMinnesota]

You assume that because I accept this, that I have no heart for those that are lost. You would be mistaken.

Should you accept it though? Shouldn't we be able to come together to form solutions for the suffering people endure instead of shrugging your shoulders and thinking "Well, that is really bad but God know's what he's doing and he'll fix it" Well if there is a God, he watches this suffering with indifference.

 

[Deidre32]

Actually, I call upon the same resources that you do. A combination of my own ability to empathise with others plus the consensus reached with others in my community.

So maybe we all have our own definitions of 'good,' which is fine, but that's just the point. My idea of a 'good God,' is that he wants the best for my life, and brings good out of tragedy. It is hard to explain in words how I came back to the faith, but it was an instant thing, and it was due to an experience of faith, not a longing for what I was missing, etc.

''God is good'' means to me, that God is always wanting for us, to find the good in all things, and to bring about good despite pain and suffering that is common in our world. I guess I just believe that there is something else 'out there,' and we owe it to ourselves to keep seeking it.

 

[SteveB28]

So maybe we all have our own definitions of 'good,' which is fine, but that's just the point. My idea of a 'good God,' is that he wants the best for my life, and brings good out of tragedy. It is hard to explain in words how I came back to the faith, but it was an instant thing, and it was due to an experience of faith, not a longing for what I was missing, etc.

''God is good'' means to me, that God is always wanting for us, to find the good in all things, and to bring about good despite pain and suffering that is common in our world. I guess I just believe that there is something else 'out there,' and we owe it to ourselves to keep seeking it.

Fine. It sounds like you have your own estimation of what 'good' means, just as the rest of us do.

Which takes us back to the original question. If we are able to assess what 'good' means on our own, then what need to we have of a god which purportedly represents 'goodness'? It would seem that we are perfectly capable of understanding that concept without the need of a god as an example.

 

[Lukamu]

I have a problem with the phrase, "God is good."

If God is good, then goodness must be greater than God. Or at the very least, it must be external to God.

If you make the claim that God is good, then you must be comparing Him to some standard of goodness that is beyond Him. A set of moral attributes that can be objectively looked at and said to be good without an appeal to God for what is good or right or wrong. Otherwise you are judging God by His own standards that He made up, and let's be honest, anyone can pass their own standards of what's right and wrong, especially if you made them up.

I guess my main point is: Is goodness good because it is inherently good, or is it good because God says (or make it) so? If it is because God said so, then what standard is God using to determine right and wrong? Himself? Then the question becomes, how would we know if what God is doing is actually good?
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Thoughts?

In John 5:33-35, Jesus explains an answer to your question. God's goodness is not deduced from human reasoning. As you say, it his own standard. But you are comparing God to just "anyone", which is where I find the flaw in your argument.
To answer your last question, I ask "how would we know if what we are doing is actually good?" I'd point out that our current knowledge is cumulative of the past 10,000 years or know, while God has the cumulative knowledge of eternity. That's what gives him the right to set his own standards, which are good.
Thought provoking question, thanks GoldenBoy.

 

[Lukamu]

The problem I have with the phrase "God is Good" is when it's used for such petty things like finding your lost keys or making it to work on time despite traffic. But then when I bring up the suffering and death of children I get "God is mysterious". It so easily rationalizes tragedy. It annoys me.

When you bring up the suffering and death of children, consider the crucifixion of Jesus. There are things that we can't understand from our human perspective, which is why you get the response "God is mysterious." A better response would be "God is mysterious, but still good even if we can't understand why ____ happened." As a Christian, "God is good" means more to me during trials than it does during triumphs. During trials, it is encouragement. During triumphs, it is glorifying to God.
Sorry if some of us Christians seem wishy-washy!

 

[SteveB28]

In John 5:33-35, Jesus explains an answer to your question. God's goodness is not deduced from human reasoning. As you say, it his own standard. But you are comparing God to just "anyone", which is where I find the flaw in your argument.
To answer your last question, I ask "how would we know if what we are doing is actually good?" I'd point out that our current knowledge is cumulative of the past 10,000 years or know, while God has the cumulative knowledge of eternity. That's what gives him the right to set his own standards, which are good.
Thought provoking question, thanks GoldenBoy.

So, you are also hooked on the second horn of Euthyphro's dilemma; viz, that God defines 'goodness', correct?

Let me see if I can get an answer to the question I have asked several times:

If you were convinced that your God was commanding you to slaughter your firstborn child, would you consider this to be 'good'?

 

[Lukamu]

It would seem that we are perfectly capable of understanding that concept without the need of a god as an example.

If you believe this, then do you believe that "good" is defined by the individual, by the majority, or by the authority? Follow up question: if something is called "good", is it indefinitely good, or can it be redefined at a later date?

 

[SteveB28]

When you bring up the suffering and death of children, consider the crucifixion of Jesus. There are things that we can't understand from our human perspective, which is why you get the response "God is mysterious." A better response would be "God is mysterious, but still good even if we can't understand why ____ happened." As a Christian, "God is good" means more to me during trials than it does during triumphs. During trials, it is encouragement. During triumphs, it is glorifying to God.
Sorry if some of us Christians seem wishy-washy!

If you can't understand, how do you make the very confident assertion that "God is good"?

 

[Lukamu]

If you were convinced that your God was commanding you to slaughter your firstborn child, would you consider this to be 'good'?

Are you looking for an answer because no one has answered you yet? I guess what I'm saying is, why are you asking?

 

[SteveB28]

If you believe this, then do you believe that "good" is defined by the individual, by the majority, or by the authority? Follow up question: if something is called "good", is it indefinitely good, or can it be redefined at a later date?

I explained this previously. We all determine 'goodness' as a result of our empathy combined with the influence of our society.

Yes, values like good, bad, right, wrong are continually being redefined. If not, we would still be perfectly comfortable with witch-hunting, slavery, human sacrifice, etc.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I guess my main point is: Is goodness good because it is inherently good, or is it good because God says (or make it) so? If it is because God said so, then what standard is God using to determine right and wrong? Himself? Then the question becomes, how would we know if what God is doing is actually good?

Let's look at this in a different light. As a Humanist....Are you human? Are you human because you say you are human? Are you human because you are inherently human? What makes you inherently human? You? Other "humans"? If it is because humans said so, then what standard are humans using to determine humanism? Themselves? Then the question becomes, how would we know if what humans are doing is actually humanistic?

 

[SteveB28]

Are you looking for an answer because no one has answered you yet? I guess what I'm saying is, why are you asking?

I am asking because at least three people here have expressed the view that whatever God does, says, thinks, commands, etc is automatically 'good' by definition. So I have asked that question of each of them. Would you like to try an answer?

 

[Lukamu]

If you can't understand, how do you make the very confident assertion that "God is good"?

Faith. Romans 1:17 and Hebrews 11:1 for the biblical response. 20-some years of experience in trusting God when I don't understand for my personal response. Because I have more proof (read: observation) of God's goodness than any proof to the contrary for the scientific response.

 

[SteveB28]

Faith. Romans 1:17 and Hebrews 11:1 for the biblical response. 20-some years of experience in trusting God when I don't understand for my personal response. Because I have more proof (read: observation) of God's goodness than any proof to the contrary for the scientific response.

Then please answer my question in message number 86.

 

[civilwarbuff]

So, you are also hooked on the second horn of Euthyphro's dilemma; viz, that God defines 'goodness', correct?

Let me see if I can get an answer to the question I have asked several times:

If you were convinced that your God was commanding you to slaughter your firstborn child, would you consider this to be 'good'?

And where did that happen?

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

When you bring up the suffering and death of children, consider the crucifixion of Jesus. There are things that we can't understand from our human perspective, which is why you get the response "God is mysterious." A better response would be "God is mysterious, but still good even if we can't understand why ____ happened." As a Christian, "God is good" means more to me during trials than it does during triumphs. During trials, it is encouragement. During triumphs, it is glorifying to God.
Sorry if some of us Christians seem wishy-washy!

The crucifixion of Jesus......like a human blood sacrifice as if it were effective? That's basically scapegoating...you can throw your sins onto someone else. That doesn't sound good to me. That sounds like a bronze age sadistic fantasy. You obviously see it differently.

So you have to assume that suffering of children is a good thing because you can't understand it? I can understand it quite easily. Suffering children is a terrible thing. So when something good happens in your life "God is good" but when something bad happens like a child suffers and dies a horrible death or a child is raped and murdered. "Well I can't possibly understand this, God must be really mysterious". It's not mysterious at all. It's an absolute failure to reason rationally and care sufficiently for other people.

 

[SteveB28]

And where did that happen?

Well, I'm hoping that it hasn't happened to you yet!

The God that you claim is the definition of goodness, however, either did it or commanded it many times, according to the mythology of the Bible.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Well, I'm hoping that it hasn't happened to you yet!

The God that you claim is the definition of goodness, however, either did it or commanded it many times, according to the mythology of the Bible.

Again, where did that happen?

 

[civilwarbuff]

The crucifixion of Jesus......like a human blood sacrifice as if it were effective? That's basically scapegoating...you can throw your sins onto someone else. That doesn't sound good to me. That sounds like a bronze age sadistic fantasy. You obviously see it differently.

So you have to assume that suffering of children is a good thing because you can't understand it? I can understand it quite easily. Suffering children is a terrible thing. So when something good happens in your life "God is good" but when something bad happens like a child suffers and dies a horrible death or a child is raped and murdered. "Well I can't possibly understand this, God must be really mysterious". It's not mysterious at all. It's an absolute failure to reason rationally and care sufficiently for other people.

You really do speak out of total ignorance don't you? You really don't have any idea what has been done for you, do you?

 

[Lukamu]

I am asking because at least three people here have expressed the view that whatever God does, says, thinks, commands, etc is automatically 'good' by definition. So I have asked that question of each of them. Would you like to try an answer?

Of course I'll give it a go. I would say that God only does what is good, not that what he does is automatically good. However, because God only does what is good, then whatever he does is automatically good because he would not do what is not good.
Indeed, God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, in Genesis 22. This was after God promised Abraham that his offspring would be numerous, and God did it to test Abraham's faith. Abraham must have believed that God had the power to bring Isaac back from the dead, because he brought Isaac to the stone and bound him. But read what happens at the last moment in Genesis 22:11-12.

If you were convinced that your God was commanding you to slaughter your firstborn child, would you consider this to be 'good'?

As for your initial question, if God commanded me to sacrifice my child (my wife and I had a girl, our first, 4 months ago), truthfully I can tell you that my initial thought would be "Not good, God! what are you thinking!?" So no, I would not consider it to be "good." Furthermore, I would never be convinced that God was commanding me to do such a thing. We no longer live in the Old Testament times like Abraham did. The Old Covenant is completed, and Christians have accepted God's New Covenant found in the New Testament of the Bible.
Perhaps you have spotted a flaw or have some comment/question about what I said. I'd be willing to hear it!