God is Good

[JonFromMinnesota]

You really do speak out of total ignorance don't you? You really don't have any idea what has been done for you, do you?

Surely if God exists and he is omnipotent could think of a better way than sending his alter ego down to suffer a brutal, barbaric, bloody human sacrifice. That sounds like bronze age nonsense to me.
It's scapegoating.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Surely if God exists and he is omnipotent could think of a better way than sending his alter ego down to suffer a brutal, barbaric, bloody human sacrifice. That sounds like bronze age nonsense to me.
It's scapegoating.

Only if you are the goat.....don't be the goat....

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Only if you are the goat.....don't be the goat....

Ah. So it's okay as long as it's not you? If you were on death row, you'd allow someone to take your place if they offered it?

 

[Xalith]

If you were convinced that your God was commanding you to slaughter your firstborn child, would you consider this to be 'good'?

Ever read the Bible? God actually tested Abraham's faith on this very subject. Abraham was ready to comply (with some measure of emotional pain, obviously) and he was very well-rewarded for his faith (and of course, God stopped him from carrying it out entirely).

This, however, parallels the whole Christ being crucified on the Cross. You ask us if we would kill our firstborn child if God told us to... well, God did that very thing at Calvary.

Surely if God exists and he is omnipotent could think of a better way than sending his alter ego down to suffer a brutal, barbaric, bloody human sacrifice. That sounds like bronze age nonsense to me.
It's scapegoating.

Who are we to judge this?

He made the Universe, and each of us. We don't have the authority, nor the capability of judging Him. That's a pretty dangerous stance to take in the first place, and I pray that He will forgive you for taking it for you do not appear to know what you're Actually saying there.

What did Jesus say right before He died on the Cross?

"Forgive them father for they know not what they do" (pp) or something like that?

 

[Lukamu]

The crucifixion of Jesus......like a human blood sacrifice as if it were effective? That's basically scapegoating...you can throw your sins onto someone else. That doesn't sound good to me. That sounds like a bronze age sadistic fantasy. You obviously see it differently.

So you have to assume that suffering of children is a good thing because you can't understand it? I can understand it quite easily. Suffering children is a terrible thing. So when something good happens in your life "God is good" but when something bad happens like a child suffers and dies a horrible death or a child is raped and murdered. "Well I can't possibly understand this, God must be really mysterious". It's not mysterious at all. It's an absolute failure to reason rationally and care sufficiently for other people.

So where do you put your sins?
Please do not quote me as saying "suffering of children is a good thing." What I meant to communicate to you was that some things are good and some things are bad, which I called triumphs and trials. When things are good, "God is good." But even when things are bad, "God is good." I may not completely understand why children are suffering, so the complete phrase/response is, "God is good, even though I cannot understand why this is happening." This response is very different than saying, "God is good, and it is good for children to suffer." Hopefully that clears up any misunderstanding.
Please answer the question if you will - where do you put your sins?

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

So where do you put your sins?

My responsibility stays with me. If I wrong someone, I own up to it and accept the consequences of my actions. Then work towards becoming a better person. There is no vicarious redemption.

 

[Lukamu]

My responsibility stays with me. If I wrong someone, I own up to it and accept the consequences of my actions. Then work towards becoming a better person. There is no vicarious redemption.

Well I can see where you're coming from, and it seems like you've thought about it enough to make a solid argument. Sorry for straying from the topic of the thread! But hopefully you understood what I was talking about in in my response (Post #105). "God is good, even though I cannot understand why _____ is happening."

 

[morse86]

Morality cannot come from man.

Mark 10:18:
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Morality comes from God, it is universal and it does not change.

We don't need "worldly philosophers" to explain this, we have the word of God instead.

Satan runs this world. He owns all of the kingdoms of this world. However, God left a "remanent"...the believers. So that they may bring the gospel of hope that is of Jesus Christ unto the lost. That's what the bible states.

Remember, the capstone of this world is Satan. The cornerstone (the remanent) is Jesus. Just look at the dollar bill, the all seeing eye is the capstone.

 

[Xalith]

So where do you put your sins?
Please do not quote me as saying "suffering of children is a good thing." What I meant to communicate to you was that some things are good and some things are bad, which I called triumphs and trials. When things are good, "God is good." But even when things are bad, "God is good." I may not completely understand why children are suffering, so the complete phrase/response is, "God is good, even though I cannot understand why this is happening." This response is very different than saying, "God is good, and it is good for children to suffer." Hopefully that clears up any misunderstanding.
Please answer the question if you will - where do you put your sins?

Another thing to point out, is that God does not cause evil, but He can use an evil event for His purposes.

For example, perhaps an unsaved person grabs a gun and murders an innocent person. Said person gets put on Death Row, and while on Death Row, they have a lot of time to think and they know exactly what day they will die. They are overcome with guilt and they turn to Christ and become saved. This won't stop the execution from taking place, of course.

Now, in this example, God used an evil act (the murder) to bring about something good (bringing another soul to Heaven). As for children getting abused, raped, etc? That's a huge can of worms... God does not cause these children to get abused, though all things are allowed by God. Perhaps if He were to stop that from happening, something else worse would happen somewhere else? Perhaps the scars of the abuse would lead the child down to an eventual end where the child gets Saved in the future, and if the child did not have these scars, they wouldn't have gotten saved?

See, what we do in this mortal realm is like a grain of sand against Eternity. Too many people think that Life and Death here on Earth is the be-all and end-all of everything, but it isn't. If a child suffered horrible things, well... that's horrible... however, if said suffering lead to the child's salvation, is it not better for the child to suffer for a short time and spend eternity in Heaven, than for the child to have a good childhood, but wind up in Hell instead?

The suffering of the child is bad... but the end is good, rather than the childhood being good and the eternity being much worse than anybody can possibly comprehend while we're in our mortal bodies.

We can't judge these things, because only God foreknows everything. From the very beginning to the very end, He knows everything that is happening, that was happening, and that shall happen in the future. I was an abused child myself; I had a sexually abusive older brother. I'm 35 now, and these things happened between the ages of 5 and 13. It very much affected how I turned out, and when I came to Christ this past March, I said a long prayer of forgiveness, forgiving people who had done wrong to me, and my brother was one of the very first at the top of the list. I hold nothing against my brother now. He wasn't even 18 yet, and that was 20+ years ago, it's in the past, and done.

Furthermore, if I had been more successful in the world... would I have found Christ? Would I have become saved? If I could go back and do it all over again... I'd gladly suffer such abuse again if it meant that I'd end up getting saved if the alternative was to have a good childhood but end up in Hell instead because I was too successful in the world to notice Christ's calling. I think back on my life, and I can see the things He either did, or allowed, to bring me to my present location, and there's so many things that might have altered my path that He very much did not allow (some of THE strangest things happened to shoot some of my plans in the foot that came out of seemingly nowhere).

 

[SteveB28]

Again, where did that happen?

Where did what happen?

 

[SteveB28]

Of course I'll give it a go. I would say that God only does what is good, not that what he does is automatically good. However, because God only does what is good, then whatever he does is automatically good because he would not do what is not good.

And so we have a contradiction in just two sentences. Not a good start.

As for your initial question, if God commanded me to sacrifice my child (my wife and I had a girl, our first, 4 months ago), truthfully I can tell you that my initial thought would be "Not good, God! what are you thinking!?" So no, I would not consider it to be "good."

Because, independently of your God, you have made your own determination of what is good and what is not. Well done.

Furthermore, I would never be convinced that God was commanding me to do such a thing.

And yet Abraham was. Not to mention all the others who carried out similar commands.

We no longer live in the Old Testament times like Abraham did. The Old Covenant is completed, and Christians have accepted God's New Covenant found in the New Testament of the Bible.

Irrelevant. The point is not when or to whom he issued those edicts. The point is that he did. And you have to decide for yourself whether or not those commands were 'good'.

But you've already stated that they aren't good, haven't you? So, you have a problem. Inside your brain, you are holding two conflicting beliefs simultaneously; viz, that everything that your God does is good, and that some of things he has done are not good.

That's called, amongst other names, cognitive dissonance.

I pity you.

Perhaps you have spotted a flaw or have some comment/question about what I said. I'd be willing to hear it!

Done.

 

[SteveB28]

Morality cannot come from man.

Mark 10:18:
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Morality comes from God, it is universal and it does not change.

We don't need "worldly philosophers" to explain this, we have the word of God instead.

Satan runs this world. He owns all of the kingdoms of this world. However, God left a "remanent"...the believers. So that they may bring the gospel of hope that is of Jesus Christ unto the lost. That's what the bible states.

Remember, the capstone of this world is Satan. The cornerstone (the remanent) is Jesus. Just look at the dollar bill, the all seeing eye is the capstone.

God is good, because God says he is good.

Marvellous.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Morality cannot come from man.

Morality comes from God, it is universal and it does not change.

Well we don't condone slavery
We don't stone women for not being a virgin on her wedding night
we don't murder homosexuals
we don't kill people for breaking the Sabbath
we don't kill disobedient children
We don't take women as spoils of war
etc, etc, etc, etc.

Morality comes from ourselves. Unless you're a sociopath, we have empathy. We understand how our behavior affects people around us. We learn from past mistakes and adjust our morality.

Hypothetically if it was proven tomorrow that undeniably and without a doubt, God didn't exist, we wouldn't all of a sudden start treating eachother poorly and killing eachother. If you would, you have no place in society.

 

[SteveB28]

Ever read the Bible? God actually tested Abraham's faith on this very subject.

I know. It's why I asked the question. Was this a good thing to do?

Abraham was ready to comply (with some measure of emotional pain, obviously) and he was very well-rewarded for his faith (and of course, God stopped him from carrying it out entirely).

Was it a good action? When you are old enough to be a great grandfather like me, would it be a good thing to demand that your son or daughter should slaughter someone to prove their faith to you?

This, however, parallels the whole Christ being crucified on the Cross. You ask us if we would kill our firstborn child if God told us to... well, God did that very thing at Calvary.

Have you noticed how you have completely avoided the question?

I didn't ask you about Abraham's decision. I didn't ask you about your god's decision. I asked you for your decision! What would you do if you were convinced that your God was commanding you to slaughter your firstborn?

 

[SteveB28]

Well we don't condone slavery
We don't stone women for not being a virgin on her wedding night
we don't murder homosexuals
we don't kill people for breaking the Sabbath
we don't kill disobedient children
We don't take women as spoils of war
etc, etc, etc, etc.

Morality comes from ourselves. Unless you're a sociopath, we have empathy. We understand how our behavior affects people around us. We learn from past mistakes and adjust our morality.

Hypothetically if it was proven tomorrow that undeniably and without a doubt didn't exist, we wouldn't all of a sudden start treating eachother poorly and killing eachother. If you would, you have no place in society.

Brilliantly and succinctly put Jon!

And the quote from Hitchens isn't half bad either.........!

 

[quatona]

If you believe this, then do you believe that "good" is defined by the individual, by the majority, or by the authority?

It´s defined in a permanent complex process involving all of them.

Follow up question: if something is called "good", is it indefinitely good, or can it be redefined at a later date?

It can and needs to be refined (sometimes from one moment to the other) - as situations and conditions keep changing and require new evaluations.

 

[GillDouglas]

Should you accept it though? Shouldn't we be able to come together to form solutions for the suffering people endure instead of shrugging your shoulders and thinking "Well, that is really bad but God know's what he's doing and he'll fix it" Well if there is a God, he watches this suffering with indifference.

I often felt the way you do now, at least for the first 30 years of my life. I didn't believe there was a God because of all the pain and suffering I had witnessed in my life and in the world. Now because I understand that there is true purpose for such things and not for nothing, I am at peace with the way the some things are in this world. That doesn't mean I don't try to do my part, with my limited abilities and resources, to aid my fellow man. If we are able to prevent the suffering and death of people around us we would be honoring the Lord's second charge to love each other as we would love ourselves. However, as a Christian I am more concerned with helping others coming to know the Lord, as I have, in order that they might find the same peace during our time here.

 

[SteveB28]

I often felt the way you do now, at least for the first 30 years of my life. I didn't believe there was a God because of all the pain and suffering I had witnessed in my life and in the world. Now because I understand that there is true purpose for such things and not for nothing, I am at peace with the way the some things are in this world. That doesn't mean I don't try to do my part, with my limited abilities and resources, to aid my fellow man. If we are able to prevent the suffering and death of people around us we would be honoring the Lord's second charge to love each other as we would love ourselves. However, as a Christian I am more concerned with helping others coming to know the Lord, as I have, in order that they might find the same peace during our time here.

What is your god's "true purpose" for all the pain and sufferings? What was his "true purpose" when he supposedly had all those firstborn Egyptians slaughtered? What was his "true purpose" in convincing Abraham to slaughter his own son? What was his "true purpose" in condoning slavery?

 

[GillDouglas]

What is your god's "true purpose" for all the pain and sufferings? What was his "true purpose" when he supposedly had all those firstborn Egyptians slaughtered? What was his "true purpose" in convincing Abraham to slaughter his own son? What was his "true purpose" in condoning slavery?

Some may know the answers to these questions, only He could answer them all for certain. These things happen regardless, so how you desire to explain their purpose rest on your own understanding. Can you answer the questions you presented or the following? Can you tell me the true purpose for my mother committing suicide when I was 20? Can you explain to me why my (at the time) 9 month old daughter's brain was attacked and severely damaged by a rare virus? No, you can't answer these, and no amount of human reasoning or science can. I believe that these 'bad' events in my life did or do serve a bigger purpose in the grand scheme and they can easily be explained as God's will to bring about 'good' in another's life or the world.

 

[SteveB28]

Some may know the answers to these questions, only He could answer them all for certain.

That isn't what you said earlier. You said you had understanding of a "true purpose". Was that just the rhetoric that we hear so frequently from the religious?

These things happen regardless, so how you desire to explain their purpose rest on your own understanding.

Why must there be a "purpose"? Why cannot some things just happen for no reason?

Can you answer the questions you presented or the following? Can you tell me the true purpose for my mother committing suicide when I was 20? Can you explain to me why my (at the time) 9 month old daughter's brain was attacked and severely damaged by a rare virus?

Because, tragically, we know these things happen from time to time.

No, you can't answer these, and no amount of human reasoning or science can.

That isn't true. I don't want to appear insensitive, but we do understand quite a lot about the emotional issues that sometimes drive a person to take their life. We also understand quite a lot about viruses and their manner of transmission.

I believe that these 'bad' events in my life did or do serve a bigger purpose in the grand scheme and they can easily be explained as God's will to bring about 'good' in another's life or the world.

Good. Please "easily" explain how the suicide of your mother and the brain infection of your child was part of your god's plan of "bringing about good".