God is Good

[RealityCheck]

I do not need something bigger than or external to the Universe to determine it is BIG.

Similarly we do not need something bigger than or external to God to determine He is good.

Big is an attribute of the universe. Good is an attribute of God.

That's nonsense. BY what standard do you judge that the universe is big? What does big even mean if there is no standard for what is considered to be big?

 

[RealityCheck]

That´s a phrase that I read as "I myself have no clue what the following might mean, but I´ll say it anyway."

In other words, something is good because God says so, and something is evil because God says so. That right?

 

[quatona]

In other words, something is good because God says so, and something is evil because God says so. That right?

No, I don´t think so. The equation "God=goodness" doesn´t imply that things are good or evil because God says so.

Anyway, it seems to me that the argument as presented in its logical conclusion replaces moral and meta-moral considerations with the quest for unconditional and uninformed obedience. This remains as the only intelligible value.
If we add to that the fact that we don´t even have clear evidence what God actually says (not to mention that we don´t even have clear evidence that a God exists), the entire approach becomes pretty shaky.

 

[GillDouglas]

So you accept that 9 million children die every year before the age of 5? You just think "Oh, God knows what he's doing"? You're being offered a psychotic and psychopathic moral attitude. That's a failure to reason rationally and care sufficiently about the suffering of other people.

I do accept this. To put it in a way that you might understand; That's life!

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

I do accept this. To put it in a way that you might understand; That's life!

It's concerning that you can hear about or see suffering on an that type of scale and shrug your shoulders with something like "That's life, God knows what he's doing"

 

[SteveB28]

We cannot understand why an act, that certainly seems anything but good, is good because we lack the view of the grand scheme.

No, that is not so. Once we remove this notion that goodness must be tied to a particular entity, we are free to arrive at a meaning through consensus.

And the concept of "do as I say" might work with very small children, but as someone who has now passed the age of reason, it is as appealing as a mouthful of ashes.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I have a problem with the phrase, "God is good."

If God is good, then goodness must be greater than God. Or at the very least, it must be external to God.

If you make the claim that God is good, then you must be comparing Him to some standard of goodness that is beyond Him. A set of moral attributes that can be objectively looked at and said to be good without an appeal to God for what is good or right or wrong. Otherwise you are judging God by His own standards that He made up, and let's be honest, anyone can pass their own standards of what's right and wrong, especially if you made them up.

I guess my main point is: Is goodness good because it is inherently good, or is it good because God says (or make it) so? If it is because God said so, then what standard is God using to determine right and wrong? Himself? Then the question becomes, how would we know if what God is doing is actually good?

Thoughts?

Look folks, before we try to evaluate whether God is 'good' or not, don't we need to know...indeed...what 'goodness' is? [...and of course, knowing 'what' God is wouldn't hurt either.]

But sitting here, squabbling over the possible equivalence of two undeciphered terms seems to me to be....an act of futility.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Have fun...

2PhiloVoid

 

[SteveB28]

God is the author of 'good' and 'evil'.

I know that may be difficult to understand, but God is the divine Principle. There is no authoritative ideology or substance above His own.

I have no idea if you have children. If you believed your God commanded you tomorrow to slit the throat of your eldest child, would you do it? Would you consider this "divine Principle" to override everything you know to be 'good'?

 

[SteveB28]

Ah - the en-LIE-tenment age.

Where mankind deceived itself into thinking we can get all the answers ourselves.

And yet, isn't it amazing how well that "thinking" is serving us? Can you think of an "answer" we have discovered that didn't come from ourselves?

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

I have a problem with the phrase, "God is good."

If God is good, then goodness must be greater than God. Or at the very least, it must be external to God.

If you make the claim that God is good, then you must be comparing Him to some standard of goodness that is beyond Him. A set of moral attributes that can be objectively looked at and said to be good without an appeal to God for what is good or right or wrong. Otherwise you are judging God by His own standards that He made up, and let's be honest, anyone can pass their own standards of what's right and wrong, especially if you made them up.

I guess my main point is: Is goodness good because it is inherently good, or is it good because God says (or make it) so? If it is because God said so, then what standard is God using to determine right and wrong? Himself? Then the question becomes, how would we know if what God is doing is actually good?

Thoughts?

I think the idea was coined way back when to mean that God is the wellspring in which all goodness comes from. Therfore nothing other than God can produce goodness.

 

[GillDouglas]

No, that is not so. Once we remove this notion that goodness must be tied to a particular entity, we are free to arrive at a meaning through consensus.

And the concept of "do as I say" might work with very small children, but as someone who has now passed the age of reason, it is as appealing as a mouthful of ashes.

You give yourself and others too much credit in their the ability to discern the mysteries of this life based on your or others understanding.

 

[GillDouglas]

It's concerning that you can hear about or see suffering on an that type of scale and shrug your shoulders with something like "That's life, God knows what he's doing"

You assume that because I accept this, that I have no heart for those that are lost. You would be mistaken.

 

[Deidre32]

God...as much as I know of Him...is good. So much so, there is an inexplicable joy I have that I didn't, when I stopped 'believing.' When I identified as an atheist, I could look at that and say to someone...''this is in your mind.'' But, now having experienced something recently, something relating to the Holy Spirit...I finally understand what others see. If someone's faith is the little more than believing the stories out of the Bible, but no real experience of faith...I can see why a life of faith doesn't look appealing. (or convincing lol)

 

[Xalith]

It is a rather simple concept, and I'm going to explain it in Christian terms:

God made the universe and all that dwell therein.

Thereby, God is Sovereign above all.

If God is Sovereign above all, then HIS definition is THE definition that matters, because His is the final say-so. If He says something is Good, then it is Good because of His Sovereignty.

There are none higher than Him, therefore nobody has the right to dispute anything He says. We're talking about a Being who spoke the entire universe into being, stars that are (to us) countless, yet He knows them each by name.

Those who disagree with Him and choose not to follow Him or seek Him will eventually be eternally separated from Him when they leave their mortal bodies. Since God is Life, He is Love, and He is the Light... being without Him leaves us with no Life, no Love, and no Light -- eternal darkness and anguish, aka, "Hell".

People think of Hell as His punishment... it is more like Him giving these people what they seem to want -- they don't want Him or His Ways, so they get separated from Him instead.

 

[SteveB28]

God...as much as I know of Him...is good. So much so, there is an inexplicable joy I have that I didn't, when I stopped 'believing.' When I identified as an atheist, I could look at that and say to someone...''this is in your mind.'' But, now having experienced something recently, something relating to the Holy Spirit...I finally understand what others see. If someone's faith is the little more than believing the stories out of the Bible, but no real experience of faith...I can see why a life of faith doesn't look appealing. (or convincing lol)

How do you assess him as being 'good'? What measurement do you use?

 

[SteveB28]

It is a rather simple concept, and I'm going to explain it in Christian terms:

God made the universe and all that dwell therein.

Thereby, God is Sovereign above all.

If God is Sovereign above all, then HIS definition is THE definition that matters, because His is the final say-so. If He says something is Good, then it is Good because of His Sovereignty.

There are none higher than Him, therefore nobody has the right to dispute anything He says. We're talking about a Being who spoke the entire universe into being, stars that are (to us) countless, yet He knows them each by name.

Those who disagree with Him and choose not to follow Him or seek Him will eventually be eternally separated from Him when they leave their mortal bodies. Since God is Life, He is Love, and He is the Light... being without Him leaves us with no Life, no Love, and no Light -- eternal darkness and anguish, aka, "Hell".

People think of Hell as His punishment... it is more like Him giving these people what they seem to want -- they don't want Him or His Ways, so they get separated from Him instead.

So, whatever he says is 'good', must be good, correct?

This is the second horn of the dilemma.

If you were convinced that your God wanted you to bash a baby's brains out on a rock, would you consider this to be 'good'?

 

[Deidre32]

How do you assess him as being 'good'? What measurement do you use?

What do you consider to be good? Atheists believe in goodness. lol What measurement do you use to 'measure' goodness?

 

[SteveB28]

What do you consider to be good? Atheists believe in goodness. lol What measurement do you use to 'measure' goodness?

Actually, I call upon the same resources that you do. A combination of my own ability to empathise with others plus the consensus reached with others in my community.

 

[SteveB28]

Actually, I call upon the same resources that you do. A combination of my own ability to empathise with others plus the consensus reached with others in my community.

Now, would you return the courtesy please? How do you measure your God as being 'good'?

 

[SteveB28]

You give yourself and others too much credit in their the ability to discern the mysteries of this life based on your or others understanding.

Not at all. I would be first to agree that there is much we do not know - may never know.

But, whatever mysteries we have unraveled, we have done so on our own, using those "abilities" which you casually dismiss.