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God Is a Physical Being

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by JAL, May 17, 2020.

  1. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    The quote I gave was from Mary Baker Eddy. Are you a believer in Christian Science?
     
  2. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Missed the point of the argument. The TITLES of God do not change. If you translate a title as "Father" or "Son", for example, you must be consistent in ALL passages. You just don't want to face the facts.
     
  3. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Relevance?
     
  4. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    You have not corrected or refuted what is established. You have only given your opinion.
    I do not find anything you posted as convincing.

    V. The Holy Spirit Is God
    A. Equated with God/the Lord: Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17-18

    B. Has the incommunicable attributes of God

    1. Eternal: Heb. 9:14; this poses a problem for anyone suggesting that the Holy Spirit is something other than God (implies someone or something else besides God is eternal)

    2. Omnipresent: Ps. 139:7

    3. Omniscient: 1 Cor. 2:10-11

    C. Involved in all the works of God

    1. Creation: Gen. 1:2; Ps. 104:30

    2. Incarnation: Matt. 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35

    3. Resurrection: Rom. 1:4; 8:11

    4. Salvation: Rom. 8:1-27

    D. Is a person

    1. Has a name: Matt. 28:19; note that even though “name” might be used of a nonperson, here, in conjunction with the Father and the Son, it must be used of a person.

    2. Is the “Helper”

    a. Is another Helper: John 14:16, cf. 1 John 2:1; note also that “Helper” (paraklêtos) was used in Greek always or almost always of persons.

    b. Is sent in Jesus’ name, to teach: John 14:26.

    c. Will arrive, and then bear witness: John 15:26-27.

    d. Is sent by Christ to convict of sin, will speak not on his own but on behalf of Christ, will glorify Christ, thus exhibiting humility: John 16:7-14.

    3. Is the Holy Spirit, in contrast to unholy or unclean spirits: Mark 3:22-30, cf. Matt. 12:32; 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 John 3:24-4:6.

    4. Speaks, is quoted as speaking: John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 16:6; 20:23; 21:11: 28:25-27; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7-11; 10:15-17; 1 Pet. 1:11; Rev. 2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22.

    5. Can be lied to: Acts 5:3

    6. Can make decisions, judgments: Acts 15:28

    7. Intercedes for Christians with the Father: Rom. 8:26

    8. “Impersonal” language used of the Spirit paralleled by language used of other persons

    a. The Holy Spirit as fire: Matt. 3:11; Luke 3:16; cf. Ex. 3:2-4; Deut. 4:24; 9:3; Heb. 12:29

    b. The Holy Spirit poured out: Acts 2:17, 33; cf. Is. 53:12; Phil. 2:17; 2 Tim. 4:6

    c. Being filled with the Holy Spirit: Eph. 5:18, etc.; cf. Eph. 3:17, 19; John 14:10

    VI. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Are Each Someone Distinct from the Other Two (i.e., they are three “persons”)


    A. Matt. 28:19

    1. “the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”: use of definite article before each personal noun indicates distinct persons unless explicitly stated otherwise; compare Rev. 1:17; 2:8, 26

    2. The views that “Father” and “Son” are distinct persons but not the Holy Spirit, or that the Holy Spirit is not a person at all, or that all three are different offices or roles of one person, are impossible in view of the grammar (together with the fact that in Scripture a “spirit” is a person unless context shows otherwise).

    3. Does singular “name” prove that the three are one person? No; cf. Gen. 5:2; 11:14; 48:6; and esp. 48:16. Thus, the word “name” can apply distinctly to each of the three (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) and does not imply that they have only one name.

    4. “Name” need not be personal name, may be title: Is. 9:6; Matt. 1:23.

    B. Acts 2:38 and Matt. 28:19

    1. Neither passage specifies that certain words are to be spoken during baptism; nor does the Bible ever record someone saying, “I baptize you in the name of....”

    2. Those said to be baptized in the name of Jesus (whether or not the formula “in the name of Jesus” was used) were people already familiar with the God of the OT:

    a. Jews: Acts 2:5, 38; 22:16

    b. Samaritans: Acts 8:5, 12, 16

    c. God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 10:1-2, 22, 48

    d. Disciples of John the Baptist: Acts 19:1-5

    e. The first Christians in Corinth were Jews and God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 18:1-8; 1 Cor. 1:13

    3. Trinitarian formula for baptism (if that is what Matt. 28:19 is) was given in context of commissioning apostles to take the gospel to “all the nations,” including people who did not know of the biblical God

    4. Cross-referencing Acts 2:38 and other Acts references to baptism “in Jesus’ name” with Matthew 28:19 to prove that Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is hermeneutically flawed, since none of these passages is seeking to make such a point and none of them is claiming that baptism must be performed using a particular formula.

    C. God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ are two persons

    1. The salutations: Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; 6:23; Phil. 1:2; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:1, 2; 1 Tim. 1:1, 2; 2 Tim. 1:2; Tit. 1:4; Philem. 3; James 1:1; 2 Pet. 1:2; 2 John 3

    2. Two witnesses: John 5:31-32; 8:16-18; cf. Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15

    3. The Father sent the Son: John 3:16-17; Gal. 4:4; 1 John 4:10; etc.; cf. John 1:6; 17:18; 20:21

    4. The Father and the Son love each other: John 3:35; 5:20; 14:31; 15:9; 17:23-26; cf. Matt. 3:17 par.; 17:5 par.; 2 Pet. 1:17

    5. The Father speaks to the Son, and the Son speaks to the Father: John 11:41-42; 12:28; 17:1-26; etc.

    6. The Father knows the Son, and the Son knows the Father: Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22; John 7:29; 8:55; 10:15

    7. Jesus our Advocate with the Father: 1 John 2:1

    D. Jesus is not God the Father

    1. Is. 9:6: “Father of eternity” means eternal; compare other names formed with word “father”: Abialbon, “father of strength” = strong (2 Sam. 23:31);Abiasaph, “father of gathering” = gatherer (Ex. 6:24); Abigail, a woman’s name (!), “father of exultation” = exulting (1 Chron. 2:16).

    2. John 10:30

    a. Jesus did not say, “I am the Father,” nor did he say, “the Son and the Father are one person.”

    b. The first person plural esmen (“we are”) implies two persons.

    c. The neuter word for “one” (hen) is used, implying essential unity but not personal unity.

    d. John 10:30 in context is a strong affirmation of Christ’s deity, but does not mean that he is the Father.

    3. John 5:43: Jesus’ coming in his Father’s name means not that he was the Father because he had the Father’s name, but that, while others come in their own name (or their own authority), Jesus does not; he comes in his Father’s name (on his Father’s authority).

    4. John 8:19; 16:3: Ignorance of Jesus is indeed ignorance of the Father, but that does not prove that Jesus is the one he calls “My Father.”

    5. John 14:6-11

    a. Jesus and the Father are one being, not one person.

    b. Jesus said, “I am in the Father,” not “I am the Father.”

    c. The statement, “the Father is in me,” does not mean Jesus is the Father; compare John 14:20; 17:21-23.

    6. John 14:18: An older adult brother can care for his younger siblings, thus preventing them from being “orphans,” without being their father.

    7. Colossians 2:9: Does not mean that Jesus is the Father, or that Jesus is an incarnation of the Father; rather, since “Godhead” (theotês) means Deity, the state of being God, the nature of God, Jesus is fully God, but not the only person who is God. “The Godhead” here does not = the Father (note that Jesus is in the Father, John 10:38; 14:10, 11; 17:21), but the nature of the Father. See II.B.3.

    8. The Father and the Son are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (Gal. 1:1; John 2:19-22), raising the dead (John 5:21); 6:39-40, 44, 54, 1 Cor. 6:14), answering prayer (John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23), sending the Holy Spirit (John 14:16; 15:26; 16:7), drawing people to Jesus (John 6:44; 12:32), etc. These common works do prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Father

    E. The Son existed before his Incarnation, even before creation

    1. Prov. 30:4: This is not predictive prophecy; “prophecy” in 30:1 translates massa, which is rendered elsewhere as “burden.”

    2. The Son created all things, requiring of course that he existed when he did so: See above, IV.E.1.

    3. Jesus was “with” (pros or para) God the Father before creation: John 1:1; 17:5; pros in John 1:1 does not mean “pertaining to,” although it does in Hebrews 2:17; 5:1 (which use pros with ta).

    4. Jesus, the Son of God, existed before John the Baptist (who was born before Jesus): John 1:15, cf. 1:14-18, 29-34.

    5. Jesus, the Son, came down from heaven, sent from the Father, and went back to heaven, back to the Father: John 3:13, 31; 6:33; 38, 41, 46, 51, 56-58, 62; 8:23, 42; 13:3; 16:27-28; cf. Acts 1:10-11; cf. the sending of the Holy Spirit, John 16:5-7; 1 Pet. 1:12

    6. Jesus, speaking as the Son (John 8:54-56), asserts His eternal preexistence before Abraham: John 8:58

    7. The Son explicitly said to exist “before all things”: Col. 1:17, cf. 1:12-20

    8. These statements cannot be dismissed as true only in God’s foreknowledge

    a. We are all “in God’s mind” before creation; yet such passages as John 1:1 and John 17:5 clearly mean to say something unusual about Christ.

    b. To say that all things were created through Christ means that He must have existed at creation.

    c. No one else in Scripture is ever said to have been with God before creation.

    9. Texts which speak of the Son being begotten “today” do not mean he became the Son on a certain day, since they refer to his exaltation at his resurrection (Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:3-5; 5:5; cf. Ps. 2:7; cf. also Rom. 1:4).

    F. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit

    1. The Holy Spirit is “another Comforter”: John 14:16; compare 1 John 2:1.

    2. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit: John 15:26; 16:7.

    3. The Holy Spirit exhibits humility in relation to, and seeks to glorify, Jesus (John 16:13-14).

    4. The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.

    5. The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus: Luke 3:22.

    6. Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?

    a. 2 Cor. 3:17: the Spirit is here called “Lord” in the sense of being Yahweh or God, not Jesus (cf. v. 16, citing Ex. 34:34; cf. v. 17 in the Revised English Bible); note Acts 28:25-27, cf. Is. 6:8-10.

    b. 1 Cor. 15:45: Jesus is “a life-giving Spirit,” not in the sense that he is the Holy Spirit whom he sent at Pentecost, but in the sense that he is the glorified God-man; and as God he is Spirit by nature. All three persons of the Trinity are Spirit, though there are not three divine Spirits; and only one person is designated “the Holy Spirit.”

    c. Rom. 8:27, 34: the fact that two persons intercede for us is consistent with the fact that we have two Advocates (John 14:16; Rom. 8:26; 1 John 2:1).

    d. John 14:18: Jesus here refers to his appearances to the disciples after the resurrection (compare 14:19), not to the coming of the Spirit.

    e. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (John 2:19-19-22); Rom. 8:9-11), raising the dead (John 5:21; 6:39-40, 44, 54, Rom. 8:9-11), dwelling in the believer (John 14:16; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col. 1:27), interceding for the believer (Rom. 8:26; Heb. 7:25), sanctifying believers (Eph. 5:26; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. These works prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

    G. The Father is not the Holy Spirit

    1. The Father sent the Holy Spirit: John 14:15; 15:26.

    2. The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us: Rom. 8:26-27.

    3. The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.

    4. Is the Father the Holy Spirit?

    a. Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35: It is argued that the Holy Spirit is the Father of the incarnate Son of God; this argument ignores the fact that the “conception” is not a product of physical union between a man and a woman!

    b. The Father and the Holy Spirit are both said to be active in various activities; the resurrection of Jesus (Gal. 1:1; Rom. 8:11), comforting Christians (2 Cor. 1:3-4; John 14:26), sanctifying Christians (Jude 1; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. The most these facts prove is that the two work together; they do not prove the two are one person.
    The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity


    [​IMG]

    • 7108 reads
     
  5. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    I see you ignored my 3-part proof that the mind is material. You've ignored virtually every proof on this thread.
     
  6. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Relevance? I'm a Trinitarian too.
     
  7. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    "
    Definition by Etymology or Root Meaning: Bad Arguments against the Personhood of the Holy Spirit #4
    Robert M. Bowman Jr.
    Post date:
    August 15, 2014
    One of the many popular anti-Trinitarian arguments against the personhood of the Holy Spirit has to do with the Greek word pneuma, translated “Spirit” or “spirit” depending on context. (A similar argument is used with regards to the Hebrew word ruach, but we’ll focus here on the New Testament.) Anti-Trinitarians often appeal to the etymology, or word origin, for pneuma, pointing out that it originates from a Greek verb meaning “to blow,” which doesn’t sound like a promising derivation for the name of a person.1 Or in a related argument, they will argue that the “root,” “basic,” or “literal” meaning of the word pneuma is “breath” or “wind,”2 or that pneuma is synonymous with “breath” or “wind,” and from there conclude that the Holy Spirit is merely an impersonal force that issues from God.3

    Both the argument from etymology and the argument from a word’s supposedly “basic” meaning are exegetically fallacious forms of reasoning. Biblical scholars have been warning against these “word-study” fallacies for years,4 but most Bible readers, whether anti-Trinitarian or Trinitarian, have not gotten the memo, so the former keep using the arguments and the latter keep being flummoxed by them. As has often been pointed out, the English word nice derives etymologically from the Latin word nescio, which meant “ignorant,” but this tells us nothing about the meaning of the word nice! The Hebrew word el apparently has “might” as its etymological root, but this cannot be taken to mean that God is an impersonal force of “might” into which human beings can tap. The relevance of this second example to the debate over the meaning of pneuma ought to be obvious.

    Words have their meanings in the contexts of their uses, and these meanings can vary from one place to another. To get a sense for how a word is typically (not always) used, one must survey all of the occurrences of that word, at least in a large enough body of literature and with enough occurrences to warrant viewing the selection as representative.

    The word pneuma occurs 379 times in the Greek New Testament. Of these, approximately 258 occurrences are used in reference to the Holy Spirit. (Exact numbers are debatable because in a handful of texts there can be reasonable differences in how the text is understood, but the broad picture remains the same.) In one text God the Father is described as pneuma (“God is pneuma,” John 4:24) and in one text the risen Christ is (“became a life-giving pneuma,” 1 Cor. 15:45). Obviously, God the Father and Jesus Christ are both persons, not impersonal forces or abstract attributes. About 61 occurrences refer to demons or angels or other unspecified supernatural beings, including 22 references specifically to “unclean spirits” alone.5 Most readers of the Bible understand that in the biblical worldview these demons, unclean spirits, and angels were viewed as personal beings, not impersonal forces. About 40 texts use the word in an anthropological context, i.e., referring to the inner person or invisible aspect of human beings (“my spirit,” “spirit and body,” etc.). These include two likely references to the spirits of departed human beings awaiting the final resurrection (Heb. 12:9, 23). The remaining 18 or so texts use the word “spirit” in reference to the attitude or disposition of individuals or groups of people.

    The foregoing survey of New Testament usage of pneuma reveals just how shallow the anti-Trinitarian argument is. In actual usage the notions of breath or wind have receded to the background of the word pneuma; in fact, the word can never be translated “breath” or “wind” except where the word is used in symbolic imagery in reference to demons or deity (John 3:8a; 2 Thess. 2:8; Rev. 13:15). Nor does pneuma ever have the meaning of an impersonal force or energy or of the abstract attribute of power. Instead we find that pneuma is used in reference to the following:

    • God
    • Christ
    • the Holy Spirit
    • demonic and unclean spirits
    • angels and other generic spirits
    • departed human spirits
    • the inner aspect or person of human beings
    In actual New Testament usage, then, it frequently, and arguably most often, refers to persons, not to impersonal forces or abstractions. Of course, anti-Trinitarians can still try to mount arguments from specific uses in context that the Holy Spirit is not a person. However, the word-study arguments that appeal to the etymology or basic meaning of pneuma fail. They are bad arguments and honest anti-Trinitarians should simply abandon them.
    "
    Definition by Etymology or Root Meaning: Bad Arguments against the Personhood of the Holy Spirit #4
     
  8. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Relevance? After all, I'm a Trinitarian.
     
  9. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Arguing for the Holy Spirit as being mere a holy breath denies his personhood.
     
  10. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    (Sigh). For the millionth time, the Holy Breath is a Person, the Third Person of the Trinity.

    At least you've confirmed that all you have to offer are strawmen and false allegations.
     
  11. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Breath is not a person.

    "
    breath

    noun
    1. the air taken into or expelled from the lungs.
      "I was gasping for breath"

      Similar:
      wind

      puff
      • an inhalation or exhalation of air from the lungs.
        plural noun: breaths
        "she drew in a quick breath"

        Similar:
        gulp of air
        inhalation

        inspiration

        exhalation

        expiration

      • define breath - Google Search

     
  12. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Last I check God's nature is not evil. He is holy.
     
  13. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    A material substance cannot be a Person? You might want to read your Bible.

    "The Holy [Breath] descended on Him in bodily form like a dove".
     
  14. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    (Yawn). Ignores the thrust of the argument, as usual.
     
  15. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    The divine Breath is not a person? What about divine Fire? Not a Person?
    "They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them" (Acts 2).
     
  16. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    "But they originally were evil demons in my opinion."

    What???
     
  17. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    Maybe it will help if I break down the basic logic for you:

    God, including the Holy Spirit HAS to be a natural being because:
    • It doesn't make sense to me, JAL, if He is not
    • Everything about God must make complete sense to me
    • Therefore, God must be 100% understandable to me, and just like me
    • Therefore, if I can understand God, and He is like me, then I am no different than God
    • Therefore I, JAL, basically AM God
    • Therefore anyone who disagrees with me, or anyone who says anything I don't understand must be wrong and ungodly and beneath me, because (again), I AM God.
    • Therefore all should join my new(ish) religion, Jalism (instead of serving coffee, we serve condescending remarks and giant egos)
     
  18. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    "By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth." (Ps 33:6)

    So in your view, it was NOT a person who created the earth?
     
  19. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    You are confused friend. None of the texts you quoted has "holy" with the word breath and it is Hebrew, not Greek.

    I am standing with the well known Translators, who have studies professionally, academic for decades.
     
  20. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Psalm 33
    Easy-to-Read Version

    33 Rejoice in the Lord, good people!
    It is only right for good people to praise him.
    2 Play the lyre and praise the Lord.
    Play the ten-stringed harp for him.
    3 Sing a new song to him.
    Play it well and sing it loud!
    4 The Lord’s word is true,
    and he is faithful in everything he does.
    5 He loves goodness and justice.
    The Lord’s faithful love fills the earth.
    6 The Lord spoke the command, and the world was made.
    The breath from his mouth created everything in the heavens.

    7 He gathered together the water of the sea.
    He put the ocean in its place.
    8 Everyone on earth should fear and respect the Lord.
    All the people in the world should fear him,
    9 because when he speaks, things happen.
    And if he says, “Stop!”—then it stops.
    10 The Lord can ruin every decision the nations make.
    He can spoil all their plans.
    11 But the Lord’s decisions are good forever.
    His plans are good for generation after generation.
    12 Great blessings belong to those who have the Lord as their God!
    He chose them to be his own special people.
    13 The Lord looked down from heaven
    and saw all the people.
    14 From his high throne he looked down
    at all the people living on earth.
    15 He created every person’s mind,
    and he knows what each one is doing.
    16 A king is not saved by the power of his army.
    A soldier does not survive by his own great strength.
    17 Horses don’t really bring victory in war.
    Their strength cannot help you escape.
    18 The Lord watches over his followers,
    those who wait for him to show his faithful love.
    19 He saves them from death.
    He gives them strength when they are hungry.
    20 So we will wait for the Lord.
    He helps us and protects us.
    21 He makes us happy.
    We trust his holy name.
    22 Lord, we worship you,
    so show your great love for us.


    In verse 6,

    "breath from his mouth" and word "Command" is a Hebrew Parallel that has the same meaning. The text text does not refer to the Holy Spirit.

    "Synonymous parallelism is a literary device often used in Hebrew poetry that involves the repetition of the same idea in two different ways."
    What Is Synonymous Parallelism in Hebrew Poetry?
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
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