Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Presumably he doesn't praise God for providing the food on his plate or the roof over his head either - after all, they are all man-made and God is only responsible for things that happen miraculously.gluadys said:I just wonder why you are so loathe to praise God for providing medicines and medical knowledge. Sounds rather ungrateful to me.
gluadys said:and that's more semantics. You are just using redefinition to make your case. From this perspective a person suffers only one headache all their life long. It's the same one coming and going.
Now the bible describes the research and development of new medicines? Please point out the outline.
You have data to this effect?
So Luke was a snake oil salesman?
Remember, the reason quacks can get away with their shenanigans is because they are imitating the real thing. If there were no actual cures, there would be no market for fake ones.
I just wonder why you are so loathe to praise God for providing medicines and medical knowledge. Sounds rather ungrateful to me.
ebia said:Translation: "I can't substantiate my claim so I'll chuck in a bit of conspiracy theory".
Lion of God said:The headache is the symptom of the actual problem so therefore it is in effect the same one coming and going.
Not medicines, but healing.
The Lord's healing is complete, quick and free with no side effects
Could be. Maybe he repented and became a writer instead of the real healing that comes from God.
Don't you mean that if there were actual cures there wouldn't be a market for fake ones? That makes more sense.
To hear you, I should be praising God for making me sick so that I can then be used as a lab rat for the chemical concoctions that the pharmaceutical companies come up with.
Lion of God said:Translation: "I am not willing to see past my own self-delusions to see the truth and will therefore criticize and minimize anyone else's perspectives if they are basing it on anything in the bible rather than "science"."
Lion of God said:Don't you mean that if there were actual cures there wouldn't be a market for fake ones? That makes more sense.
Willtor said:You know that Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, Barth, etc. all defended science/philosophy of nature, right?
Lion of God said:What they believed was their perogative. At least two of those names have writings that I disagree with on other topics so it means little to me. Just from a quick look on Wikipedia on the definition of Natural Theology, I'd have to say I disagree with it because I believe it requires supernatural revelation to appreciate how the natural points to God.
That at least was my experience.
Willtor said:Barth shares your views of natural theology. However, his views on science are another matter altogether.
That said, isn't it strange that some of the greatest theologians of all time disagree with you on such an important issue? I don't mention others, because I haven't read enough. But my guess is that it's generally the same. To be sure, none of them share your views of medicine.
Lion of God said:Science in certain diciplines has changed substantially over the last few hundred years. It no longer goes where the evidence leads but is based on an agenda. Certain fields are attempting to prove what they want it to prove. That wasn't the mindset of scientists back in their day.
Medicine wasn't tied to big business back then either. In fact if a doctor had too many patients die on him, chances were good, he would be sharing their fate quite quickly. Today it is about how much money is being made rather than how many people are being cured, at least that is the case with western medicine. The accountants are very hesitant to pull a drug off the market even when it has been proven to be detrimental. In my years on this earth I have seen that happen quite often.
The science and medical fields are made up of fallible human beings. To believe everything that comes from their interpretations and theories is to put them in the place of God. When the Lord through my spirit is telling me that a certain scientific theory is incorrect or that anti-depressants are not beneficial, I'll believe Him rather than the doctor or scientist regardless of the research and data they say proves they are correct. So in my opinion not all medicine comes from God. The medicines that do come from Him are those that are safe without side effects. That is His nature so they are the only ones that would qualify as being from Him. Even then they are for those who aren't strong enough as yet to access the better healing through Faith. We are a society that is based on instant results so the patience to wait on God is sometimes lacking.
Having said all that, I do admit that much of Christianity is lacking in faith to access the healing that is available through it. Too often they rely on "wishfull thinking" rather than real faith. Real faith comes from a clear consciounce attained by doing this to the best of one's ability:
* Personal accountability
* Confession of sin, repentance and restitution, and
* Godly living.
(Too often we stop at just having faith that we are saved and not looking further at what it is God would have us do.)
Then by standing on the promises that God makes throughout the bible, healing through faith becomes a reality as do other gifts of the Spirit.
This is something I've experienced in my own life.
It's only fair to point out that what the Lord is telling a lot of other people contradicts what you say he is telling you.When the Lord through my spirit is telling me that a certain scientific theory is incorrect or that anti-depressants are not beneficial, I'll believe Him rather than the doctor or scientist regardless of the research and data they say proves they are correct
Willtor said:Shenren pointed out that there were many instances of sickness in the Bible that were not "faith healed" by the Apostles. You may want to reread that and reconsider.
Yep. In other words, Paul prescribed some medicine (a drug, no less).Lion of God said:Timothy's Stomach
The apostle Paul told Timothy to drink wine and not just water, because Timothy was experiencing frequent stomach illnesses (1 Timothy 5:23, below).
Not that any of this is remotely relevent, but do you think God can't heal at a distance?This verse is sometimes used to show that Paul couldn't heal Timothy, but clearly Paul was writing to Timothy. Paul was nowhere near Timothy and could not have laid hands on Timothy even if he wanted to!
Funny how a repeated headache isn't healed, but repeated stomach ache is. But regardless - to be relevent to your point you have to prove not only was he healed (it's not much of a healing if you get the same again almost straight away), but that the healing was neither natural nor helped by medicine but was miraculous. Given that we know medicine (wine) was prescribed and we are not told about any miracle it clearly stands against your argument not for it.Timothy had traveled extensively with Paul, but after Paul left him in Ephesus to provide leadership there, Timothy had "frequent illnesses" in his stomach from drinking the local water (for example, see The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.730, 745). Here is that verse:"Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses." (1 Timothy 5:23)Notice that Timothy did not have an "illness" (singular) that was never healed, but instead he had several stomach illnesses (plural) because of the local water. Since he had "frequent illnesses" (plural), it shows that each stomach illness was healed each time! Therefore, this passage should be used to prove, not fight, the view that it is God's will for us to be healed.
Let me repeat for the hard of hearing, no-one is remotely suggesting that God doesn't heal. We are trying to point out that most of the time he does this through natural processes and through medics. These are as much God's healing power as a supernatural miracle.Therefore, this passage should be used to prove, not fight, the view that it is God's will for us to be healed.
ebia said:Let me repeat for the hard of hearing, no-one is remotely suggesting that God doesn't heal. We are trying to point out that most of the time he does this through natural processes and through medics. These are as much God's healing power as a supernatural miracle.
The science and medical fields are made up of fallible human beings. To believe everything that comes from their interpretations and theories is to put them in the place of God. When the Lord through my spirit is telling me that a certain scientific theory is incorrect or that anti-depressants are not beneficial, I'll believe Him rather than the doctor or scientist regardless of the research and data they say proves they are correct. So in my opinion not all medicine comes from God.
shernren said:As you can see, the testimony of my spirit does not quite tally with yours. And neither does the testimony of all the Christians over the years who have been moved by God to set up hospitals. Places where doctors (oh! the workers of the devil!) dispensed medicine (oh! the horrifying invention of atheist man!) to patients (oh! the faithless infidels!). Has even one Christian medical worker over the years had any revelation from God that their supplies of antibiotics and Panadols and antidepressants were actually offending Him instead of spreading His good Name?
To test the spirits is a Biblical imperative, and once you claim the authority that God has somehow supernaturally told you such-and-such a thing you are under responsibility to tell just how.
I don't know about shernren, but I'm angry. Angry because your unscientific, unorthodox, unbiblical and generally uninformed and unsupported opinions are - if others at risk listen to you - downright dangerous (not to mention bordering on blasphemous IMO).Lion of God said:I can understand that you may have some anger about this topic, shernren.
God provides natural and medically assisted healing for all of us. If you want to deny his working that's your call, but don't deny it to others.I assume you are being facetious in your last paragraph. If not, well I certainly don't deny that doctors, hospitals and medicine are required for atheists, agnostics, those whose god does not promise healing, accident victims, etc, etc.
Yet more unsubstantiated and uninformed personal opinion?Healing through faith and forgiveness isn't just a miraculous happening. It often comes as a result of seeing God's sufficiency in an area that caused stress for a long time. Stress over long-term, results in physical and mental ailments, but when a person repents of not trusting in Him, the physical manifestations of the spiritual malady will start to heal, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly.
Depression I have learned comes from anger turned inwards. It can come about for any number of reasons but a couple of prominent ones are that those who are perfectionists, try to live up to an ideal which is not humanly possible. The failures then cause anger at oneself for not doing better, which when stretched over a period of time culminates in a depressive state.
Another cause is when there is an inability to admit to having anger or hate for another. This is rather common for christians because there is such a taboo about hating others that we don't learn how to acknowledge it, deal with it and let it go. Instead it is internalized and covered with guilt and shame towards oneself for being so unchristian. Over a period of time the anger towards others is so well hidden by self-hatred that it is next to impossible to dig back up.
Throw some anti-depressants on top of it all to really cover up the internal conflicts and you have a powderkeg brewing.
If you are genuinely a prophet you'd except your revelation to be tested. If not then it's no more than your personal feeling.I'm not aware of any scriptural injunction that I'm to "tell"anything to scoffers or throw "pearls" around. I shared a little about the things I had to learn to be healed from alcoholism, drug addiction, depression and Bi-polar out of respect for your sister. May God bless and keep her during her trials.
If you right off failures as "a lack of faith" or similar, then you can show just about anything as successful. Miraculous healing from the Flying Spagetti Monster by faithful consuption of lasagne anyone?As a further witness to what God told me about trusting Him instead of medicines, I offer you this link to the testimony of a 17 year old girl when she was faced with the choice of who to put her trust in.
I can understand that you may have some anger about this topic, shernren. I assume you are being facetious in your last paragraph. If not, well I certainly don't deny that doctors, hospitals and medicine are required for atheists, agnostics, those whose god does not promise healing, accident victims, etc, etc.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?