God Evolved

[miknik5]

Huh

My second post should explain where I was heading with my question(s)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I’m aware of this PRATT. You were lied to by creationists. Dinosaurs and humans lived tens of millions of years apart.

I looked up the articles, including Wikipedia and I agree with you.

 

[HitchSlap]

I looked up the articles, including Wikipedia and I agree with you.

Thanks for your honesty.

 

[miknik5]

The Cosmic Microwave Background, around 380,000 years after the Big Bang was initiated and about 13.8 billion years ago.

And all the random atoms conveniently joined to make not only various male species but their female counterparts as well

 

[miknik5]

You just literally claimed we could only go back so far, then assert you know something before that time. Lol

I should take you seriously at this point because why?

Because I have THAT WITNESS in me who testifies to this TRUTH

 

[Ophiolite]

If you do have the occasional conversations with her as you mentioned in your above post

Then who is JESUS?

A Jewish preacher, or just possibly a composite of such individuals, who practiced in the Holy Land some 2,000years ago.

 

[miknik5]

You just literally claimed we could only go back so far, then assert you know something before that time. Lol

I should take you seriously at this point because why?

And you don’t have to take me any way

Like I said already on another thread

TRUTH is TRUTH
Regardless if one believes or not

 

[miknik5]

A Jewish preacher, or just possibly a composite of such individuals, who practiced in the Holy Land some 2,000years ago.

The witnesses and the WORD of GOD overrides your opinion

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I agree that, in the West, many (most) societies are moving away from Christianity. I do not agree that your list supports that view.

• Occult - You would be hard pressed to show that there is more engagement with the occult today than there was in, for example, Victorian England. Here sceances abounded and individuals such as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and even, Alfred Russel Wallace (cofounder of evolutionary theory), investigated them and were convinced by some of what they saw.
  
• Homosexuality - It is interesting that you view the current broad acceptance of homosexuality, a natural phenomenon, in a negative light. Not all Christians take this viewpoint. [Note: I haven't double checked the rules, but I think this is a topic that has to handled delicately, or not at all.]
  
• False cults - Again, you would be hard pressed to demonstrate an increase in such cults. However, if you have data I would be pleased to see them.
  
• Mosques - for the most part the increase in mosques over the past few decades reflects the growth of the muslim population through immigration and (probably) an increase in the wealth of the muslim community. Conversions from Christianity to Islam have almost no impact on the increase. Certainly, from what I have seen of the work done by the muslim community in my home town, centred around the mosque, society has benefited significantly.
  
• Hindu temples - I suspect the same may be said of temples as of mosques, but I lack the personal experience regarding temples.
  
• Rampant crime, murders, rapes, prostitution - You are asserting that, throughout the West, for the most part, crime is significantly worse to day than a decade ago, fifty years ago, a century ago. A rather large assertion. I wish you luck trying to demonstrate that.

Adopting an agnostic position does not prevent me from imagining a great variety of Gods. Such imagining, for many of those speculative Gods, is not hazy.

(For full disclosure I should note that while I am decidedly agnostic (certain of my uncertainty) I am atheistic in regard to the Christian God. This position was arrived at after approximately two decades raised in the Christian faith. )

That's good. However, I confess I am doing more than debate here. I am seeking to persuade you not to base your view on what is easier, but to take the harder route and take a closer look at evolutionary theory. The majority of Christian denominations have no problem with it. It's a pretty awesome theory and, if your worldview is correct, then it was conceived and created by your God. It would be a shame not to have a chance to appreciate it.

Thanks for that. I like it when we learn from each other in these debates. I don't blame you for being atheistic concerning the Christian God. I put that responsibility on the Christian Church that with all its religiousness, it cannot, at this time, convince the community around it that their God is real and alive. Paul said this to the Corinthian church. He said that when he was coming to visit them, he did not want to see just religious word, but the power of God in action. You will see in my posts on the Christian threads, that's what I am saying to fellow Christians - that the atheists, agnostics and pagans will never be convinced unless the churches are able to show beyond a doubt that the God of the Bible is real and alive today, in the way that the First Century Christian Church turned the Roman Empire upside down and turned it from a pagan society to a Christian one.

 

[HitchSlap]

Because I have THAT WITNESS in me who testifies to this TRUTH

Don’t blame your unsupportable assertions on anyone else. You alone are responsible for your utterances.

 

[Ophiolite]

And all the random atoms conveniently joined to make not only various male species but their female counterparts as well

Well, no.

Firstly, the behaviour of atoms can be classified as being of two types: random and non-random. The large scale structure to the universe, the formation of stars, galaxies and planetary sytems, the emergence and evolution of life, alI of these are seemingly inevitable because of the non-random behaviour of atoms. The details of how these developed is down to the random behaviour.

Secondly, by missing out the multiplicity of steps in the development of stellar and planetary systems and the evolution of life, you do yourself a misservice. I don't think you are as foolish as such a misrepresentation suggests and a cheap rhetorical trick is beneath you.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thanks for your honesty.

Because I am not a scientist (my M.A. is in English Literature and my other mastorate is one of Divinity), you get the drop on me every time! You see, it takes a masters in English literature to know that mentioning London in a John le Carre novel certainly doesn't make it true!!

 

[Ophiolite]

The witnesses and the WORD of GOD overrides your opinion

Point 1: This is only the case if you believe the witnesses can be relied upon and that the Bible is the Word of God. Lack of evidence in the matter overrides your belief and converts it to an opinion. Thank you for sharing your opinion with me.
Point 2: You asked me for my opinion. I gave it to you. I'm not seeking to persuade you that my opinion is valid. I'm simply sharing it because you asked me to do so.

 

[miknik5]

Point 1: This is only the case if you believe the witnesses can be relied upon and that the Bible is the Word of God. Lack of evidence in the matter overrides your belief and converts it to an opinion. Thank you for sharing your opinion with me.
Point 2: You asked me for my opinion. I gave it to you. I'm not seeking to persuade you that my opinion is valid. I'm simply sharing it because you asked me to do so.

oh. The witnesses can be relied upon and will in fact testify.

 

[miknik5]

Well, no.

Firstly, the behaviour of atoms can be classified as being of two types: random and non-random. The large scale structure to the universe, the formation of stars, galaxies and planetary sytems, the emergence and evolution of life, alI of these are seemingly inevitable because of the non-random behaviour of atoms. The details of how these developed is down to the random behaviour.

Secondly, by missing out the multiplicity of steps in the development of stellar and planetary systems and the evolution of life, you do yourself a misservice. I don't think you are as foolish as such a misrepresentation suggests and a cheap rhetorical trick is beneath you.

Who created these atoms sir?

Where did they come from and how did they randomly and non randomly join to create all these systems and life forms?

 

[Ophiolite]

oh. The witnesses can be relied upon and will in fact testify.

On what independently verifiable evidence do you base the claim that the witnesses can be relied upon?

• I'm not accepting it on faith. That's not independently verifiable.
  
• I'm not accepting it because you or others had a revelation. That's not independently verifiable.
  
• I'm not accepting it because, come judgment day, they will testify before God. That's too long to wait.
  
• I'm not accepting it for any similar reason.

 

[miknik5]

Don’t blame your unsupportable assertions on anyone else. You alone are responsible for your utterances.

hitch slap

Again. One day what you can’t see and hear now....you will later

Just as John 5 states

 

[miknik5]

On what independently verifiable evidence do you base the claim that the witnesses can be relied upon?

• I'm not accepting it on faith. That's not independently verifiable.
  
• I'm not accepting it because you or others had a revelation. That's not independently verifiable.
  
• I'm not accepting it because, come judgment day, they will testify before God. That's too long to wait.
  
• I'm not accepting it for any similar reason.

It doesn’t matter what you accept or don’t accept


It is what it is
And it can’t be changed

 

[miknik5]

Because I am not a scientist (my M.A. is in English Literature and my other mastorate is one of Divinity), you get the drop on me every time! You see, it takes a masters in English literature to know that mentioning London in a John le Carre novel certainly doesn't make it true!!

Do you believe that CHRIST is divinity being THE ONE AND ONLY SON of GOD who came forth from THE FATHER and that He alone is the WAY and THE TRUTH and LIFE is only in by and through HIM?

I’m
Interested in your answer since you said you have a mastorate in Divinity??

If you don’t mind my asking what does it mean to have a mastorate in Divinity?

 

[HitchSlap]

Because I am not a scientist (my M.A. is in English Literature and my other mastorate is one of Divinity), you get the drop on me every time! You see, it takes a masters in English literature to know that mentioning London in a John le Carre novel certainly doesn't make it true!!

It’s true that archeology has discovered ancient sites (Göbekli Tepe is a favorite of mine) previously only mentioned in writings, helps historians to develop accurate historical timelines. Then you have stories like the Exodus, where absolutely no evidence has been found to support the narrative as told in the Bible. Add to this, the fact that Hebrews did not build the pyramids or were ever enslaved to the Egyptians, no mention of a worldwide flood in a ten thousand continuous Chinese history, the flood story as a retelling of the Epic of Gilgamesh, with a Hebrew twist, leads one to take the stories with a grain of salt.
Add to this the fact that all we know of Jesus is from copies of incomplete manuscripts, written by unknown authors who never met the man, and the paucity of any other contemporary record of Jesus, and the Bible begins to look less like history, and more like legend and myth. Which, IMO, is ok. There is much to be learned about ourselves from mythology.