dvd_holc said:
That doesn't change the fact that morality is complicated. Certainly the emotions play a big part, and I would be the last to deny this. But morality is still complicated whether one is a Christian or not.
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dvd_holc said:The complication is that we don't find it convenient to live fully in love with God and humanity at all times; it is the heart of sin. We aren't all dedicated to that degree of love. Often enough, humanity takes the wrong thing for a target...such as...a man who spends a lot of his time reading books and neglects his wife...then his wife burns the books...the guy's heart has not changed so then he is more rebellious against her for destroying his books...he finds something else to occupy his time in spite of her. The heart of the matter is sin and people thinking sin's appear is a temporary gain. But sin never replaces what love is.
What complication or objections do you have to living loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle, and self-controled life? Then, I have to ask what do you have a problem accepting this is because God is active in your life?fatpie42 said:That doesn't change the fact that morality is complicated. Certainly the emotions play a big part, and I would be the last to deny this. But morality is still complicated whether one is a Christian or not.
fatpie42 said:Just like Ghandi wasn't a hindu and Mohammed wasn't a muslim.
What kind of reasoning is that meant to be?
If someone says they are Christian and worship like a Christian we normally describe them as Christian (even if it is only self-proclaimed and not 'in their heart'). Whether Hitler was a 'true' Christian in your eyes does not change the fact that he worshipped what he perceived the Christian God to be and knew of Christian theology.
The fact remains that Christians do not agree on what is right or wrong, so this method of discovering right and wrong through worship obviously isn't working very well.
Reformationist said:You're equating Hitler being a Christian to Ghandi being a Hindu and Mohammed being a Muslim?Sure fatpie. Go with that line of thought. It will explain quite a bit to whomsoever you present it.
Reformationist said:First off, you need to do a bit more research on Hitler because He wasn't a Christian. Secondly, just because someone claims that they are a Christian doesn't make it so. He did not worship God so your entire ridiculous point is moot and borderline disputatious.
The fact remains that Christians do not agree on what is right or wrong, so this method of discovering right and wrong through worship obviously isn't working very well.
Reformationist said:By all means, since Christians vary on their view of what is right and wrong that must mean that there is no established standard of right and wrong and that we should, instead, embrace philisophical doublespeak. Sure. That's the ticket.
Reformationist said:fatpie42, if your responses are becoming nothing less than these silly attempts to discredit Christianity I'll bid you adieu. If, instead, you still have honest questions please let me know.
Just my thought. Intelligence will not lead you to salvation. If you want to find God, that's an easy way described above. God bless.matthewgoh said:To find God, first we must believe in Christ by faith alone, i.e. man cannot see God unless he sees Christ. God will never convince a non-believer by evidence and sign, or else the salvation (of Christ) cannot apply.
Once we have accepted Christ, we let the holy spirit guides us, i.e. we live by the holy spirit. Once our christianity faith is matured and strong, we will realize that all the teachings of Jesus is so true. That gives an assurance that Jesus is who he preached, i.e. the Son of God.
To sum up, man cannot find God by reasonings and logics. He will find God only through the process described above.
You are a Christian by action, not by title. The Bible tells us that we know people by their fruit. Nothing Hitler did exhibited the character of Christ, quite the contrary. But the average individual knows this. So the question then is, why would you call Hitler a Christian?fatpie42 said:Are you telling me that just because Ghandi called himself a hindu he is one? How can you be so sure?
Hitler was a practicing Christian. Please explain why, other than the fact that he wasn't a nice man, we should disbelieve him?
matthewgoh said:I have posted this in another thread;
Just my thought. Intelligence will not lead you to salvation. If you want to find God, that's an easy way described above. God bless.
Sorry, what I mean a process is; First accept Jesus as our savior, by faith. Then we build a close relationship with God. We let the Holy Spirit guide us to walk through the Christian journey. One must have a certain level of faith to understand and to fully accept the teachings of Christ. Then he will know for sure Jesus is the Son of God and our savior. It is a process; it started by faith, and journeys to a maturity stage when God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are experienced by onself with complete certainty - a stage when faith is no longer a blind faith.Reformationist said:Umm....I read your post but, uh, what "process" do you mean? Are you referring to "accepting Christ?" If so, how does one do that?
matthewgoh said:Sorry, what I mean a process is; First accept Jesus as our savior, by faith.
When the Text are divorced of the historical, cultural and linguistic context in which they were written a dangerous hermeneutical space is created for people to remake Jesus into whatever they decide He should be. This happened in the 20s and 30s in Germany, the theologians at the time were so gun shy of perusing the historical aspect of Jesus because of the likes of Albert Schweitzer and such that they totally denied the historical aspect of Jesus and the Bible instead depending on things like Barts church dogmatics and Rudolf Bultmans existential theology. This denial of the historical aspect of Jesus and the Bible created a hermeneutical space for the Nazi ideology to take hold in which they remade Jesus to fit their Arian mold so much so that they declared Jesus was not particularly Jewish so much so they taught He was anti-Jewish according to the German theologian Ernst Käsemann (in 1953).fatpie42 said:Are you telling me that just because Ghandi called himself a hindu he is one? How can you be so sure?
Hitler was a practicing Christian. Please explain why, other than the fact that he wasn't a nice man, we should disbelieve him?
Earlier, I said fatpie42 is intelligent, I was not being sarcastic, but with sincerity. He is knowledgable and sharp. But the fact is God is much much more intelligent than man. He allows the confusions, he allows those reasonings and arguments raised by non-believers. So the more I read this thread, the more I realize God's existence and his intelligence.Reformationist said:Okay. Let's start here. How does one accept Jesus as his/her Savior by faith? Won't they need to already have faith to accept Him by faith?
dvd_holc said:When the Text are divorced of the historical, cultural and linguistic context in which they were written a dangerous hermeneutical space is created for people to remake Jesus into whatever they decide He should be. This happened in the 20s and 30s in Germany, the theologians at the time were so gun shy of perusing the historical aspect of Jesus because of the likes of Albert Schweitzer and such that they totally denied the historical aspect of Jesus and the Bible instead depending on things like Barts church dogmatics and Rudolf Bultmans existential theology. This denial of the historical aspect of Jesus and the Bible created a hermeneutical space for the Nazi ideology to take hold in which they remade Jesus to fit their Arian mold so much so that they declared Jesus was not particularly Jewish so much so they taught He was anti-Jewish according to the German theologian Ernst Käsemann (in 1953).
The end result was Christianity that is absent of a Jewish Messiah who did not teach his people to purify humanity by killing what they found unpure. Instead, Jesus the Messiah taught people to be reclaimed to God and live in love with him and extend that love to all of his creations.
Your motive is disingenuous at best. And as a practicing humanist, I would ask you not to reduce the serotonin levels of us Christians, and practice the relative altruism of your faith.
matthewgoh said:Ok, now come to the point which explains my above comments. The only way to salvation is by believing in Christ by faith alone. Since there's different levels of faith. So, believe by faith simply means free will, believe without seeing, without evidence, to believe just by hearing that Jesus is the Son of God. It works with the combination of the Divine power and our conscience. That's how I see it. This is the pre-requisite (condition) to receive the salvation made possible by Christ.
I am talking about the 1st stage of Christian faith; believe in Christ by faith (free will). I am not good at quoting verses, sorry. Jesus said something like; 1) Christ is the only way to heaven, 2) Noone see God unless he sees Christ, 3) Blessed are those who believe without seeing and 4) No sign will be given to this generation. Looking at these words by Christ, and the current environment we are in - they support my comments above.
fatpie42 said:So he had dodgy theology. It doesn't change the fact that he based his beliefs on scripture and believed in Christianity wholeheartedly. I know you wouldn't call it 'genuine' Christianity, but the point I am making is that someone can call themselves a Christian and open themselves to the holy spirit, accept Christ as their saviour, have faith in Christ, and yet still turn out like Hitler.
Your second statement was not directed to a statement I made, so I won’t respond to it now.fatpie42 said:You have accepted that Hitler's thought was not seperate from the theological ideas of the day and Barth is a respected theologian today.
Hitler was a Christian to the extent that he worshipped God with Christian beliefs. He didn't know right from wrong properly (by our standards at least. Perhaps what he did was right by God's standards then)? Now if you are going to have to say that someone must have the right theology to be a Christian, that is very different from saying that you simply have to confess Christ as your savior and read the Bible.
matthewgoh said:Earlier, I said fatpie42 is intelligent, I was not being sarcastic, but with sincerity. He is knowledgable and sharp. But the fact is God is much much more intelligent than man. He allows the confusions, he allows those reasonings and arguments raised by non-believers. So the more I read this thread, the more I realize God's existence and his intelligence.
Ok, now come to the point which explains my above comments. The only way to salvation is by believing in Christ by faith alone. Since there's different levels of faith. So, believe by faith simply means free will, believe without seeing, without evidence, to believe just by hearing that Jesus is the Son of God. It works with the combination of the Divine power and our conscience. That's how I see it. This is the pre-requisite (condition) to receive the salvation made possible by Christ.
I am talking about the 1st stage of Christian faith; believe in Christ by faith (free will). I am not good at quoting verses, sorry. Jesus said something like; 1) Christ is the only way to heaven, 2) Noone see God unless he sees Christ, 3) Blessed are those who believe without seeing and 4) No sign will be given to this generation. Looking at these words by Christ, and the current environment we are in - they support my comments above.
Just my thought. God bless.
fatpie42 said:Saying that the only way to God is by believing in things without evidence (which appears to be your definition of 'faith') seems rather too close to a quote from Tom Sawyer (ever read Huckleberry Finn?):
"Faith is believing what you know ain't true"
I much prefer Reformationists assertion that faith in God is provided by God through grace. (Although more disturbingly it seems to mean that God has decided to damn me. I can't choose God's grace, God has to choose me).
dvd_holc said:You might say that his theology was dodgy, and I wont argue that they (Hitler, his minions, and those who taught them that theology) were a different bible to the literal sense. However, the only thing he took of Christianity was the name.
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