God does not want you to live for Him ..

[Redwood]

But don't you see that these lists of laws are the very antithesis of relationship? That is exactly what John is trying to say! That these lists of conditions are not what God is looking for from us.

Just because someone may have called them relationship in the past does not make it so. It just means they were playing around with semantics. They themselves were not free and so they have no idea how to lead others to freedom. The blind leading the blind...

If someone is trying to manipulate and control you, they are interferring with your relationship with God - not aiding it. They are trying to place burdens on you that grieve God.

God's love for us is not founded on any expectations! None. He doesn't expect us to do anything for Him. He doesn't want us to do anything for Him. He just wants to share with us. He wants us to talk to Him and just trust in His love for us. He wants us to bring our burdens to Him and lay them at His feet. He won't force us into a relationship with Him - Love that is forced is no love at all.

When we try to follow rules, all we are doing is declaring our independence from God - saying "I can do it on my own, thanks anyway, God." And it will bring bondage every time. Christ came to set us free from all of that.

We are free to be uniquely us, not to try to conform to some image of a "proper Christian."



And that's not relationship, that's legalism. It's not freedom, it's slavery.

I'm truly sorry that anyone has ever made you to doubt your love for God or - more importantly - His love for you.

This is the glorious truth about God - He loves us unconditionally. He doesn't need any proof of our love for Him - He knows that the love for Him will grow naturally as we get to know Him, because He loves us so much!




The fact that Truth can be twisted into lies does not negate the Truth. Once twisted, it is no longer Truth. Many people have done things in Jesus' name that were not Jesus' will. That doesn't mean that we stop preaching Jesus. He is still the Truth, the Way, and the Life. He is still the only Answer.

This definition I can embrace with open arms. The problem is...I have seen how these definitions have a tendency to change over time. They start off..."God loves you unconditionally!!!" then comes the other stuff. You have to live in accordance with His will, you have to follow him, you have to die to yourself, you have to, etc...

When challenged the proponent will say...oh yes God does love you unconditionally, but God also loved the people who went straight to hell.

and then the very thing that motivated you toward God in the first place gets turned around on you.

Sorry tamara, but I am gun shy!

I hear the word relationship and my instinct is to run the other way.

I am more comfortable with the person who comes right out and says you have to live up to these standards...seriously...like a holiness preacher. I think I am more comfortable in that atmosphere. That way I know what I am dealing with up front....no suprises or people trying to sneak up behind you and gag and bag you with their version of holiness.

 

[Cassidy]

If someone is trying to manipulate and control you, they are interferring with your relationship with God - not aiding it. They are trying to place burdens on you that grieve God.

Very good point Tamara....They are not aiding it at all, in fact they are drawing you away from your relationship and making your righteousness about you, EXACTLY where it should not be!

To me...having a relationship with God, simply means, I am walking in the spirit...one with him, and allowing Him to work in me and through me (faith), so my works are Christ's works and truly of the righteous kind (works). I dont' know how others view relationship and how it could be used against someone...that's baffled me a tad.

 

[Cassidy]

This definition I can embrace with open arms. The problem is...I have seen how these definitions have a tendency to change over time. They start off..."God loves you unconditionally!!!" then comes the other stuff. You have to live in accordance with His will, you have to follow him, you have to die to yourself, you have to, etc...

When challenged the proponent will say...oh yes God does love you unconditionally, but God also loved the people who went straight to hell.

and then the very thing that motivated you toward God in the first place gets turned around on you.

Sorry tamara, but I am gun shy!

I hear the word relationship and my instinct is to run the other way.

I am more comfortable with the person who comes right out and says you have to live up to these standards...seriously...like a holiness preacher. I think I am more comfortable in that atmosphere. That way I know what I am dealing with up front....no suprises or people trying to sneak up behind you and gag and bag you with their version of holiness.

Ok I can undestand where you're coming from now. Yes people do tend to 'ruin' ideas and words for you don't they. At least you're aware that when some do talk about 'relationship' it's not with conditions

 

[Redwood]

Very good point Tamara....They are not aiding it at all, in fact they are drawing you away from your relationship and making your righteousness about you, EXACTLY where it should not be!

To me...having a relationship with God, simply means, I am walking in the spirit...one with him, and allowing Him to work in me and through me (faith), so my works are Christ's works and truly of the righteous kind (works). I dont' know how others view relationship and how it could be used against someone...that's baffled me a tad.

"walking in the spirit" there is another term I shy back from about mile when I hear it. It is so easy to turn that terminology into human effort to be righteous.

Only a matter of time really...you will end up making some big mistake and you will immediately blame and consequentially abandon this system of thinking.

Seen it happen on more than one occasion!

 

[Redwood]

Ok I can undestand where you're coming from now. Yes people do tend to 'ruin' ideas and words for you don't they. At least you're aware that when some do talk about 'relationship' it's not with conditions

I am just telling you right now...what you are talking about is not for mass consumption in the church. This would cause many faithful church goers to short circuit I think.

You are just setting yourself up for a wave of opposition from people who will blame you when somebody you share these ideas with goes down the prodigal road.

trust me...this is not my first rodeo!

 

[Redwood]

People need boundaries, standards and rules. That is just the nature of the thing called church.

Then, (provided they are not made to feel condemned by standards of righteousness) they will discover God's grace and relationship with God on their own within that context.

 

[Cassidy]

Hey Redwood...it's ok seriously! I've been there done that. I was brought up in a legalistic church. My own mother drummed into me that if I did anything 'wrong' that I musn't be walking in the spirit. I musn't be paying enough or reading enough...all that and more! so I know...trust me I do.

But I have faced the 'blame' and the 'persecution'. But I'm also away from all that now and my walk is between me and God...where it should have always been. Those 'terms' used to 'erk' me too....but they don't anymore because I'm more concerned about God and what he thinks than man and what he thinks.

I've come FROM where you think I could be going.

 

[Tamara224]

This definition I can embrace with open arms. The problem is...I have seen how these definitions have a tendency to change over time. They start off..."God loves you unconditionally!!!" then comes the other stuff. You have to live in accordance with His will, you have to follow him, you have to die to yourself, you have to, etc...

When challenged the proponent will say...oh yes God does love you unconditionally, but God also loved the people who went straight to hell.

and then the very thing that motivated you toward God in the first place gets turned around on you.

Sorry tamara, but I am gun shy!

I hear the word relationship and my instinct is to run the other way.

I am more comfortable with the person who comes right out and says you have to live up to these standards...seriously...like a holiness preacher. I think I am more comfortable in that atmosphere. That way I know what I am dealing with up front....no suprises or people trying to sneak up behind you and gag and bag you with their version of holiness.

I know exactly what you mean. Freedom is scary. Have you ever seen the movie "Shawshank Redemption"? In it there is a character who had been in prison his entire life - 50 years or more. When he finally got out, his freedom scared him, he didn't know how to live on his own. He ended up killing himself. He was unable to embrace the freedom that was his, he was more comfortable with the rigid structure of prison life. We are the same way. We are so used to bondage - bondage to the law, bondage to sin - that when offered freedom it looks vast, uncontrollable, unsafe.

Total dependence on God is also scary. It means that we're not in control - not that we ever really were, we just delude ourselves into thinking we're in control.

The reason the ideas get twisted and added to is because everyone else is just like you are... we are more comfortable with rules than with freedom. So we may start out right, with the right concept, then we get scared and try to grasp for control again and start adding lists of rules and conditions.

To truly let God be in control we have to give up trying to live by rules and trying to get others to live by rules. We have to trust, truly trust that God can handle everything.

And that's where relationship comes in. Because trust is born out of relationship. It can't be forced, it can't be drummed up within ourselves. It is a natural byproduct of knowing God.

 

[Jesus Is Real]

I am just telling you right now...what you are talking about is not for mass consumption in the church. This would cause many faithful church goers to short circuit I think.

You are just setting yourself up for a wave of opposition from people who will blame you when somebody you share these ideas with goes down the prodigal road.

trust me...this is not my first rodeo!

 

[Redwood]

Hey Redwood...it's ok seriously! I've been there done that. I was brought up in a legalistic church. My own mother drummed into me that if I did anything 'wrong' that I musn't be walking in the spirit. I musn't be paying enough or reading enough...all that and more! so I know...trust me I do.

But I have faced the 'blame' and the 'persecution'. But I'm also away from all that now and my walk is between me and God...where it should have always been. Those 'terms' used to 'erk' me too....but they don't anymore because I'm more concerned about God and what he thinks than man and what he thinks.

I've come FROM where you think I could be going.

Well they bother me and I can't help that. I have listened to sermon after sermon at the church I am currently attending for the last year and a half and 95% of the sermons have been on sin and repentance from it. Insisting that we must continually repent of every little thing we do wrong...what that means is to say God I'm sorry please forgive me...you can only take so much of it till it really begins to wear on you.

 

[jeolmstead]

But don't you see that these lists of laws are the very antithesis of relationship? That is exactly what John is trying to say! That these lists of conditions are not what God is looking for from us.

Just because someone may have called them relationship in the past does not make it so. It just means they were playing around with semantics. They themselves were not free and so they have no idea how to lead others to freedom. The blind leading the blind...

If someone is trying to manipulate and control you, they are interferring with your relationship with God - not aiding it. They are trying to place burdens on you that grieve God.

God's love for us is not founded on any expectations! None. He doesn't expect us to do anything for Him. He doesn't want us to do anything for Him. He just wants to share with us. He wants us to talk to Him and just trust in His love for us. He wants us to bring our burdens to Him and lay them at His feet. He won't force us into a relationship with Him - Love that is forced is no love at all.

When we try to follow rules, all we are doing is declaring our independence from God - saying "I can do it on my own, thanks anyway, God." And it will bring bondage every time. Christ came to set us free from all of that.

We are free to be uniquely us, not to try to conform to some image of a "proper Christian."



And that's not relationship, that's legalism. It's not freedom, it's slavery.

I'm truly sorry that anyone has ever made you to doubt your love for God or - more importantly - His love for you.

This is the glorious truth about God - He loves us unconditionally. He doesn't need any proof of our love for Him - He knows that the love for Him will grow naturally as we get to know Him, because He loves us so much!




The fact that Truth can be twisted into lies does not negate the Truth. Once twisted, it is no longer Truth. Many people have done things in Jesus' name that were not Jesus' will. That doesn't mean that we stop preaching Jesus. He is still the Truth, the Way, and the Life. He is still the only Answer.

Wow T,

That was good!

John O.

 

[jeolmstead]

People need boundaries, standards and rules. That is just the nature of the thing called church.

Then, (provided they are not made to feel condemned by standards of righteousness) they will discover God's grace and relationship with God on their own within that context.

I hope so, I know I did but it took 40 years and it was the law that condemned, not grace. I could have been free a long time ago except I was hung up in the "boundaries, standards, and rules"

John O.

 

[jeolmstead]

I know exactly what you mean. Freedom is scary. Have you ever seen the movie "Shawshank Redemption"? In it there is a character who had been in prison his entire life - 50 years or more. When he finally got out, his freedom scared him, he didn't know how to live on his own. He ended up killing himself. He was unable to embrace the freedom that was his, he was more comfortable with the rigid structure of prison life. We are the same way. We are so used to bondage - bondage to the law, bondage to sin - that when offered freedom it looks vast, uncontrollable, unsafe.

Total dependence on God is also scary. It means that we're not in control - not that we ever really were, we just delude ourselves into thinking we're in control.

The reason the ideas get twisted and added to is because everyone else is just like you are... we are more comfortable with rules than with freedom. So we may start out right, with the right concept, then we get scared and try to grasp for control again and start adding lists of rules and conditions.

To truly let God be in control we have to give up trying to live by rules and trying to get others to live by rules. We have to trust, truly trust that God can handle everything.

And that's where relationship comes in. Because trust is born out of relationship. It can't be forced, it can't be drummed up within ourselves. It is a natural byproduct of knowing God.

Wow, that's good too!

You are better at explaining this then me.

John O.

 

[jeolmstead]

Well they bother me and I can't help that. I have listened to sermon after sermon at the church I am currently attending for the last year and a half and 95% of the sermons have been on sin and repentance from it. Insisting that we must continually repent of every little thing we do wrong...what that means is to say God I'm sorry please forgive me...you can only take so much of it till it really begins to wear on you.

How can anything I’ve said remotely be compared to that?

It was for freedom that Christ made us free.

The point of everything I’ve said here is that what you are describing needs to stop, because, it only facilitates the very thing it claims to cure.

John O.

 

[Cassidy]

Well they bother me and I can't help that. I have listened to sermon after sermon at the church I am currently attending for the last year and a half and 95% of the sermons have been on sin and repentance from it. Insisting that we must continually repent of every little thing we do wrong...what that means is to say God I'm sorry please forgive me...you can only take so much of it till it really begins to wear on you.

Then why are you still there?

 

[stelow]

God wants us to enter into a friendship with Him, that's the reason we were created for in the first place. Sometimes we will want our own way and rebel but God knows our happiness depends on our relationship with Him. So maybe it's not so much us living for God but us living in a friendship with God. If we trust God loves us and always has our best interest at heart the only stumbling block to us having this friendship is going to be coming from our end of the relationship. So if we are living in a friendship with God, we will want to do things with God and some of those things might include doing what God says.

So if by spending time with the best friend you could ever possibly have causes you to want to live your life for Him, don't do it because God doesn't want you too. Now if that sounds confusing that's because it is.

 

[KleinerApfel]

Well they bother me and I can't help that. I have listened to sermon after sermon at the church I am currently attending for the last year and a half and 95% of the sermons have been on sin and repentance from it. Insisting that we must continually repent of every little thing we do wrong...what that means is to say God I'm sorry please forgive me...you can only take so much of it till it really begins to wear on you.

I hear your pain.

I don't think you're implying that anyone here has done that, but this thread has stirred your desire to break free.

This video ministered to me yesterday. I don't know if you'll like it or hate it, but I don't know what else to say to you because I am still "in process" here too! Just wanted to say you are heard.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dEisSxR2cps

 

[Cassidy]

God wants us to enter into a friendship with Him, that's the reason we were created for in the first place. Sometimes we will want our own way and rebel but God knows our happiness depends on our relationship with Him. So maybe it's not so much us living for God but us living in a friendship with God. If we trust God loves us and always has our best interest at heart the only stumbling block to us having this friendship is going to be coming from our end of the relationship. So if we are living in a friendship with God, we will want to do things with God and some of those things might include doing what God says.

So if by spending time with the best friend you could ever possibly have causes you to want to live your life for Him, don't do it because God doesn't want you too. Now if that sounds confusing that's because it is.

Hmmm - you almost have it but then you give yourself credit again for doing what God says...you know.

So let me rephrase that sentence for you.... So if we are living in a friendship with God, Christ will do things through us and it includes everything that God says.

So it's an automatic thing that Christ does what God says through us when we are in friendship (relationship) with Him. Everything that I do, in the name of God, isn't actually me, it's Christ....you see. All the obedience is Christ - not me! All the fruit is because I have faith in Christ and rely on him and not me. I don't work....I have entered the rest and labour no more (Hebrews) instead it's Christ working through me.

See the difference?

 

[stelow]

Hmmm - you almost have it but then you give yourself credit again for doing what God says...you know.

You say I gave myself credit again for doing what God says, that's just a plain bold face lie.

 

[Cassidy]

Ok then lets look at that sentence again...you said..

So if we are living in a friendship with God, we will want to do things with God and some of those things might include doing what God says.

So if you're doing what God says then who gets the credit? I know you didn't actually say it, but believing that you are the one doing the doing then...what else is one to think? You can't exactly give God the glory for it because it's not God doing it...it's us! So who gets the credit for US doing 'works'? That's all I'm saying.

I'm sorry if I came across that I was accusing you - I'm not! It just seems to me, that when people say they are 'doing' anything then it begs the question...where Christ comes into it and where is God's glory you know. That's all!

I apologise!