God does not desire to save the Reprobate.
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So, all persons who go to hell are people God hates?
All those who dismiss the gospel and all those who never heard the gospel, God hates? If the person who goes to hell is the definition of reprobate, then this would be the conclusion.
Interesting belief.
I like Zodhiates' and Vine's definition (and the Bible's use of the word) better.
If this were true, it would mean God hates far more people than he loves. As a matter of fact, given the number of people who are on the "broad road to destruction (the many as opposed to the few)", we can safely say that if this doctrine was accurate, God could more accurately be described by a verse that said "God is hate" rather than the 1 John verse that says "God is love."
However, I am not blaspheming and am in no danger, and we need not fear - for two reasons,
1) because the Bible DOES say that God is love, not hate, and
2) because this view that God hates far more people than He loves is not true and is an insult to the God of the Bible.
H.
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Wonderful or not, that's the way it is. How they (meaning you, me, and everyone) respond to Jesus is the will of God, who will have mercy upon whom He will. End of story. That's scripture.
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Blessedj01
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No, that's not the end of story. God didn't create people to automatically damn or save them. You're twisting things. Yes, He's the author of salvation and yes, who he wills will come to Him, but NO, there isn't a category of people that are automatically damned, because God wills everyone to come to Him.
I don't even know how you can agree to a sarcastic interpretation that we are God's playthings and pawns in a game. That's pretty shocking.
I don't even know how you can agree to a sarcastic interpretation that we are God's playthings and pawns in a game. That's pretty shocking.
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DeaconDean
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Ask Pharoah about that.
Ask those of OT times who were not included in the blessings of God and were left out, doomed, with no hope.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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Blessedj01
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Question: "Why did God harden Pharaoh’s heart?"
Answer: Exodus 7:3-4 says, “But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my people the Israelites.” It seems unjust for God to harden Pharaoh’s heart and then to punish Pharaoh and Egypt for what Pharaoh decided when his heart was hardened. Why would God harden Pharaoh’s heart just so He could judge Egypt more severely with additional plagues?
First, Pharaoh was not an innocent or godly man. He was a brutal dictator overseeing the terrible abuse and oppression of the Israelites, who likely numbered over 1.5 million people at that time. The Egyptian pharaohs had enslaved the Israelites for 400 years. A previous pharaoh—possibly even the pharaoh in question—ordered that male Israelite babies be killed at birth (Exodus 1:16). The pharaoh God hardened was an evil man, and the nation he ruled agreed with, or at least did not oppose, his evil actions.
Second, before the first few plagues, Pharaoh hardened his own heart against letting the Israelites go. “Pharaoh's heart became hard” (Exodus 7:1322, 8:19). “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:15). “But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:32). Pharaoh could have spared Egypt of all the plagues if he had not hardened his own heart. God was giving Pharaoh increasingly severe warnings of the judgment that was to come. Pharaoh chose to bring judgment on himself and on his nation by hardening his own heart against God’s commands.
As a result of Pharaoh’s hard-heartedness, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart even further, allowing for the last few plagues (Exodus 9:12; 10:20, 27). Pharaoh and Egypt had brought these judgments on themselves with 400 years of slavery and mass murder. Since the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23),
< staff edit >
Answer: Exodus 7:3-4 says, “But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my people the Israelites.” It seems unjust for God to harden Pharaoh’s heart and then to punish Pharaoh and Egypt for what Pharaoh decided when his heart was hardened. Why would God harden Pharaoh’s heart just so He could judge Egypt more severely with additional plagues?
First, Pharaoh was not an innocent or godly man. He was a brutal dictator overseeing the terrible abuse and oppression of the Israelites, who likely numbered over 1.5 million people at that time. The Egyptian pharaohs had enslaved the Israelites for 400 years. A previous pharaoh—possibly even the pharaoh in question—ordered that male Israelite babies be killed at birth (Exodus 1:16). The pharaoh God hardened was an evil man, and the nation he ruled agreed with, or at least did not oppose, his evil actions.
Second, before the first few plagues, Pharaoh hardened his own heart against letting the Israelites go. “Pharaoh's heart became hard” (Exodus 7:1322, 8:19). “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:15). “But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:32). Pharaoh could have spared Egypt of all the plagues if he had not hardened his own heart. God was giving Pharaoh increasingly severe warnings of the judgment that was to come. Pharaoh chose to bring judgment on himself and on his nation by hardening his own heart against God’s commands.
As a result of Pharaoh’s hard-heartedness, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart even further, allowing for the last few plagues (Exodus 9:12; 10:20, 27). Pharaoh and Egypt had brought these judgments on themselves with 400 years of slavery and mass murder. Since the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23),
< staff edit >
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DeaconDean
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Arthur W. Pink defines the Law thusly:
The law was given to Israel not that they might be redeemed, but because they had been redeemed. The notion had been brought out of Egypt by the power of God under the blood of the slain lamb, itself the symbol and token of His grace. The Law added at Sinai as the necessary standard life for a ransomed people, a people now belonged to the Lord The Law was given that they now stood to God, of a salvation which was already theirs. The covenant of the Law did not supersede the covenant of promise, but set forth the kind of life which those who were redeemed by the covenant of promise were expected to live.
Arthur W. Pink, The Law and the Spirit, [article on-line] accessed 11/18/2007, found on the world wide web at http://www.thehighway.com/Law_Pink.html.
Did God not say:
"I am Jehovah your God, who has brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage." -Ex. 20:2 (KJV)
In this verse, God says your and you. This is of particular interest because here God is addressing Israel/the Hebrews exclusively. Thus, the Laws are in the strictest sense the requirements of the God to Israel of whom they belong.
Who was brought out of Egypt and from bondage?
The Gentiles?
Evidently so, least wise, according to one person.
God has willed to allow Israel to earn merits, and therefore He gave them much Torah and commandments, as it is said: In order to give Israel merits, it pleased Yahweh to make the Torah big and strong. -Rabbi Chananiah ben Akashiah
The fact is, unless you were Hebrew, you were cut off from the blessings of God.
And I know this is going to fall on deaf ears, but what the hey.
Reprobation Asserted: OR, The Doctrine of Eternal Election and Reprobation Promiscuously Handled, In Eleven Chapters. By John Bunyan
The Sovereignty of God in Reprobation, By Arthur W. Pink
Reprobation, By John Gill
Of Election and Reprobation, By John Gill
God Bless
Till all are one.
The law was given to Israel not that they might be redeemed, but because they had been redeemed. The notion had been brought out of Egypt by the power of God under the blood of the slain lamb, itself the symbol and token of His grace. The Law added at Sinai as the necessary standard life for a ransomed people, a people now belonged to the Lord The Law was given that they now stood to God, of a salvation which was already theirs. The covenant of the Law did not supersede the covenant of promise, but set forth the kind of life which those who were redeemed by the covenant of promise were expected to live.
Arthur W. Pink, The Law and the Spirit, [article on-line] accessed 11/18/2007, found on the world wide web at http://www.thehighway.com/Law_Pink.html.
Did God not say:
"I am Jehovah your God, who has brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage." -Ex. 20:2 (KJV)
In this verse, God says your and you. This is of particular interest because here God is addressing Israel/the Hebrews exclusively. Thus, the Laws are in the strictest sense the requirements of the God to Israel of whom they belong.
Who was brought out of Egypt and from bondage?
The Gentiles?
Evidently so, least wise, according to one person.
God has willed to allow Israel to earn merits, and therefore He gave them much Torah and commandments, as it is said: In order to give Israel merits, it pleased Yahweh to make the Torah big and strong. -Rabbi Chananiah ben Akashiah
The fact is, unless you were Hebrew, you were cut off from the blessings of God.
And I know this is going to fall on deaf ears, but what the hey.
Reprobation Asserted: OR, The Doctrine of Eternal Election and Reprobation Promiscuously Handled, In Eleven Chapters. By John Bunyan
The Sovereignty of God in Reprobation, By Arthur W. Pink
Reprobation, By John Gill
Of Election and Reprobation, By John Gill
God Bless
Till all are one.
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gideons300
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This debate is fruitless and a waste of precious time, time that is slipping like sand through an hourglass. Let's remember when it was rumored that Jesus had told John that He alone would remain alie till Jesus returned, they were all upset and debating. Jesus re-focused them. "What has that got to do with you? YOU- follow me."
Where is the compassion, the love of Christ for the lost? Heck, where is the loe of Christ in us for the saved??
Listen. Bottom line. We do not know who is to be saved and who will be lost, and we have been given two tasks.
1) Make our own calling and election sure by staying in the love of God and enduring in it till the end.
2) Love ALL. Share the good news. Scatter the seed of the gospel to "whosover will".
We instead choose the path where we "discuss" which ground is the good ground and which is the bad, and then in the end, we cast forth no seed at all. And we think we are not the definition of Laodecia? It is no wonder God wants to spit us out of His mouth.
And God weeps.....
Gideon
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Blessedj01
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Abraham had faith accounted to him for righteousness.
We were ALL sinners, that's WHY we were cut off from the blessings of God. Not because we didn't fit a certain racial profile. God doesn't have to bless anyone!
Don't you get it that Abraham's faith enabled us to be counted as one of God's children, in Christ Jesus, like the Jews?
Wow...you are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sterile about your faith.
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DeaconDean
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Way to redirect.
This was about the OT laws, now its all about NT Abraham.
Way to redirect.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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Blessedj01
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It's not a redirection. I'm getting so bored of this. Abraham was the father of the Jews, so if any blessings relate back, they relate back to him. If Abraham had no faith, NO-ONE would have any blessings. And that'd be fine - cos no-one deserved them at all. Don't you understand that Abraham's faith foreshadowed faith in Jesus, < staff action>
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bottomofsandal
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We really can't say God "WILLS" all people come to Him, when that is not His will. It doesn't happen, therefore it cannot be His will. Now whosoever comes to Him will be saved, but not everyone comes to Him.
God did create a peculiar people for Himself. The Lord knows those who are His. Does God love all men the same, and if one says He is obligated to do so...why ?
1 John 3:1
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
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Blessedj01
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To be honest...if this helps you to sleep at night and wake up in the morning feeling special, who am I to tell you otherwise? Enjoy yourself bro. Have a "good one."
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gideons300 said:
If the debate is a ware of time, why are you wasting time debating?
<*(((><
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VCViking
Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel...
Where did someone who agrees with the OP state that we should not go out and evangelize? If not, why are you making this assumption?
I agree with the OP and I go out evangelizing 2-3 times per week. Going out today as a matter of fact. I have love for the lost but I have love for God more and love for God is what keeps us going back after being mocked and ridiculed. And I'm sure I'm not the only one here who agrees with the OP that shares their faith.
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- Dec 27, 2010
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As the OP I can assure you that I agree with VCViking.
We share the gospel with everyone we can.
The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. It glorifies God and should be proclaimed throughout the earth all the time.
Also, if God didn't want us to know about and discuss the doctrines we are discussing he wouldn't have penned them into scripture.
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As I posted in the other thread, here is an excellent article from CARM (an excellent website).
Does God hate anyone? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Does God hate anyone? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
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Amen, Bruce!
While we are discussing the meaning of reprobate or whether or not God hates the reprobate, there are people fitting that description that are on the road to losing much, even eternal life.
God help us to anoint our eyes that we may see.
H.
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Is a person who has turned to the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, Islam, or even Catholicism, from evangelical Christianity a reprobate? Or is it confined to moral depravity? ("men of depraved mind, rejected as regards the faith." - 2 Tim 3:8)
IOW, is doctrinal depravity included in those who are reprobate?
My son, having been saved at around 11 years old, has just gone through RCIS and become a Catholic. He is 23 yrs old now, and has a Catholic girlfriend which had nothing to do with his conversion (yes, just as 5-point Calvinists see it as a conversion when they change from 4-point to 5, they call it a conversion when you go to catholic also, I believe).
He gave plenty of evidence that he was saved before.
I was there and observed his life and saw it happen.
QUESTION: Is he a reprobate regarding the faith? He would be considered by some to be a reprobate to the faith, would he not? I'm not talking about Osage's webster definition, but the one Scripture itself gives us when it uses the word in a context like 2 Tim 3:8, that those who truly turn from the faith are "rejected."
IOW, is doctrinal depravity included in those who are reprobate?
I'll take that as a 'yes.' vague, but a 'yes.'
My son, having been saved at around 11 years old, has just gone through RCIS and become a Catholic. He is 23 yrs old now, and has a Catholic girlfriend which had nothing to do with his conversion (yes, just as 5-point Calvinists see it as a conversion when they change from 4-point to 5, they call it a conversion when you go to catholic also, I believe).
He gave plenty of evidence that he was saved before.
I was there and observed his life and saw it happen.
QUESTION: Is he a reprobate regarding the faith? He would be considered by some to be a reprobate to the faith, would he not? I'm not talking about Osage's webster definition, but the one Scripture itself gives us when it uses the word in a context like 2 Tim 3:8, that those who truly turn from the faith are "rejected."
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