God does not desire to save the Reprobate.

[Osage Bluestem]

I don't see how we can disagree with you then.
So, from your OP
and from this post, you are saying,
Someone for whom Christ did not die (a reprobate),
someone the Holy Spirit will not regenerate (a reprobate) and/or
someone who is accursed
- is a person who is destined to damnation by God.

Isn't that circular reasoning?

H.

It's not circular reasoning. It's biblical and it also just common sense. It's best to just tell people the truth instead of making up elaborate lies to make it look like God loves everyone so as not to offend unbelievers.

 

[Blessedj01]

Look I think the instances where God says he "hates" need to be taken in context of the subject matter.

Osage, I bet you do well going around telling people they are reprobates and unsaveable.

I bet you do a lot of that. Actually I bet you don't do any at all. I bet you NEVER went out on the street and stood face to face with someone and said: "You are completely damned. Sorry."

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Yeah, but we could still be reprobates right?

Reprobates don't have faith in Christ. Faith is a gift of God and he dosn't give it to reprobates.

 

[Blessedj01]

How do you know my faith in Christ is genuine? What about yours? Hey, what about Tim Tebow?

Why don't we just forget about Jesus being able to save us because obviously we can't ever be sure?

 

[SharonL]

In Romans 2:4 -Don't you realize how patient He is being with you? Or don't you care? Can't you see that He has been waiting all this time without punishing you, to give you time to turn from your sin? His kindness is meant to lead you to repentance.

I do not see this as not being able to be saved - God turns us over to a retrobate mind in order to give us more time to turn to Him.

 

[Blessedj01]

Nah, it's ok. We're all good here. The reprobates are the reprobates and we're the special ones. Let's send a memo to the Muslims and tell them to attack right now, 'cos they've got nothing to lose. Same with China, the Russians and anyone else who hates us. In fact, let's put a memo out on the streets that all them reprobates are gonna stay that way. It's rapin' and murderin' season!

 

[twin1954]

In Romans 2:4 -Don't you realize how patient He is being with you? Or don't you care? Can't you see that He has been waiting all this time without punishing you, to give you time to turn from your sin? His kindness is meant to lead you to repentance.

I do not see this as not being able to be saved - God turns us over to a retrobate mind in order to give us more time to turn to Him.

You need to find a better translation of that passage for your translation, which is probably not a translation but a paraphrase, twists it altogether.

 

[Blessedj01]

Umm, why? SharonL just spoke the truth.

 

[twin1954]

Umm, why? SharonL just spoke the truth.

Read the passage in its context and you will see that what she posited is not what Paul is saying at all. Paul is nowhere teaching that God is giving space to repent. He is teaching that man will not repent.

 

[WinBySurrender]

You need to find a better translation of that passage for your translation, which is probably not a translation but a paraphrase, twists it altogether.

Don't you realize how patient He is being with you? Or don't you care? Can't you see that He has been waiting all this time without punishing you, to give you time to turn from your sin? His kindness is meant to lead you to repentance.

Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
​

Says the same thing in the NASB, Twin. Her paraphrase doesn't "twist" anything. It makes it read in more easily understood language, but it still says the same thing. And its God's word untwisted by someone who worships a doctrine, not even related to the man it is named for, over God.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
​

Says the same thing in the NASB, Twin. How is it you would argue with this passage?

Leads who? Who is he addressing? The Church of Rome. Elect people. God's kindness tolerance and patience leads the elect to repentance. Because only the elect will repent.

 

[WinBySurrender]

Leads who? Who is he addressing? The Church of Rome. Elect people. God's kindness tolerance and patience leads the elect to repentance. Because only the elect will repent.

If you understand that we were elect before God designed salvation, I suppose you could read it that way. But if God designed salvation first, its all wrong.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

How do you know my faith in Christ is genuine? What about yours? Hey, what about Tim Tebow?

Why don't we just forget about Jesus being able to save us because obviously we can't ever be sure?

A person knows what he believes and his beliefs are manifest in what he does.

We can know we have personal salvation. We have plenty of signs if another is saved or not, however, we can't know for sure if another is really saved because people in the flesh can lie.

But faith is believing and believing is assurance. So a person can know if he is saved. God wants aN elect person to have assurance or he wouldn't have written 1 John 5:13.

 

[twin1954]

Very true. Sin is imperfection, btw. Which is definitive of what we are.

Sin is much worse than imperfection. It is a principle within. It is a hatred of all that God is and enmity against Him. Rom. 8:7. Sin is to be at war against God. Sin is to be a God hating rebel who will not bow to His rule or His way. Sin is lust after evey evil that man can imagine. Sin is the nature of all natural men.

 

[Blessedj01]

Read the passage in its context and you will see that what she posited is not what Paul is saying at all. Paul is nowhere teaching that God is giving space to repent. He is teaching that man will not repent.

Alright, so God should just strike everyone dead right?

 

[Blessedj01]

Sin is much worse than imperfection. It is a principle within. It is a hatred of all that God is and enmity against Him. Rom. 8:7. Sin is to be at war against God. Sin is to be a God hating rebel who will not bow to His rule or His way. Sin is lust after evey evil that man can imagine. Sin is the nature of all natural men.

All of that is the result of imperfection. God is perfect and He doesn't make imperfect things. WE made ourselves imperfect, thus inviting all of that in. Sin is not much worse than imperfection - it IS imperfection. Everything we become when we are imperfect is a symptom of sin. We are speaking about the same thing, but I'm just putting it very plainly.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

If you understand that we were elect before God designed salvation, I suppose you could read it that way. But if God designed salvation first, its all wrong.

God's purpose is to exault his Son by adopting an eternal family that are conformed to the image of Christ. The Son's purpose is to glorify his Father. The Holy Spirit brings it about by applying the work of Christ to his elect.

So he decreed and predestined that it would be so. Then he put it all into motion before the world began.

2 Timothy 1:9 ESV
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Ephesians 1:4-6 ESV
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Romans 8:28-30 ESV
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[Blessedj01]

God's purpose is to exault his Son by adopting an eternal family that are conformed to the image of Christ. The Son's purpose is to glorify his Father. The Holy Spirit brings it about by applying the work of Christ to his elect.

So he decreed and predestined that it would be so. Then he put it all into motion before the world began.

2 Timothy 1:9 ESV
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Ephesians 1:4-6 ESV
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Yes, we are merely conformed. Loving God has nothing to do with it. We are robots and who God is and what He reveals in us doesn't matter...

...the world and all it's human inhabitants are God's playthings, merely here to be either saved or unsaved by divine proclamation. How they respond to Jesus has nothing to do with it, they are merely pawns in His game.

How wonderful.

 

[twin1954]

Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
​

Says the same thing in the NASB, Twin. Her paraphrase doesn't "twist" anything. It makes it read in more easily understood language, but it still says the same thing.

No it doesn't as you have shown. And my NASB says forebearance not tolerance btw. The 2 words bear a different conotation.

And its God's word untwisted by someone who worships a doctrine, not even related to the man it is named for, over God.

Ad Hominem arguments such as this are only used because the truth cannot be refuted. I usually ignore them.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Yes, we are merely conformed. Loving God has nothing to do with it. We are robots and who God is and what He reveals in us doesn't matter...

...the world and all it's human inhabitants are God's playthings, merely here to be either saved or unsaved by divine proclamation. How they respond to Jesus has nothing to do with it, they are merely pawns in His game.

How wonderful.

God is wonderful and adoption into his family is wonderful. Being holy like Christ is wonderful. There is nothing better that can be because God is the best there is all elese falls short.

Romans 9:18-23 ESV
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

God's glory is what it is about and that is awesome and very good. God always does exactly the best thing possible to be done, so trust in God and be amazed at his works. If you're not you're thinking with a carnal mind.