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GOD didn't create evil - Founding teacher reference needed.

Truthfrees

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Hi there wof family,

Can anyone provide me with a reference from a wof teacher on how God DIDN'T create evil?

What book or online teaching includes at least a statement that God didn't create evil?

Is there a teaching that includes the scripture references wof use to teach God didn't create evil?

Some of you have done an excellent job of proving this from scripture, but I need a reference from a founding teacher on this.

:)
 

hhodgson

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Hi there wof family,

Can anyone provide me with a reference from a wof teacher on how God DIDN'T create evil?

What book or online teaching includes at least a statement that God didn't create evil?

Is there a teaching that includes the scripture references wof use to teach God didn't create evil?

Some of you have done an excellent job of proving this from scripture, but I need a reference from a founding teacher on this.

:)

Hi Truthfrees... I hope you find what you are looking for. It would be nice to have that info for saving references.

Teaching GOD created evil is against the teaching of (wof founding teachers). Any wof knows this.

Truthfrees... From your earlier statement HERE, Can you find references on what these Word of Faith teachers such as Kenyon, Hagin, Wigglesworth, Copeland, Creflo, Duplantis, Moore, Winston, Wommack, Savelle,Capps, Price, Hays, Yandian, Hammond, Renner, Osteen (John), Billye Brim, Barclay, Mcintyre, or if you find any others. It would be much appreciated for my studies. Obviously, not all these are "founders"

Also...

My recommendation to any who struggle with getting high quality results from wof teaching is: Listen ONLY to founding wof teachers (Hagin, Capps, Copeland, and their company), until your errors of thought, belief, and application, get straightened out, and you get the same results as our founding teachers do.

Not sure who are their "company" Can you advise?

Thanks...

 
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Truthfrees

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Hi Harry,
I moved your questions over to a different thread, because I wasn't sure what the question was.

It looked like it might have been taking the other thread in a different direction.

Here's the link: http://www.christianforums.com/t7857680/#post66816484
 
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dkbwarrior

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For those that don't have the time to follow the link I have copied and pasted the relevant passage. It is from Kenneth Hagin's book "The Key To Scriptural Healing":

"Similar Scriptures are Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things"; and Micah 1:12, "For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the Lord unto the gate of Jerusalem."
Obviously, these passages in the King James Version of the Bible do not give the true meaning of the original Hebrew, for we know that God doesn't create evil. Evil doesn't come from heaven. God only permits evil; He doesn't create it. Evil could not come from heaven, because there is no evil there. God permitted it to come, but He didn't create it. Nor does He create sickness. He only permits it to come as a result of man's disobedience.
The key to these difficulties lies in the fact that the active verb in the Hebrew has been translated in the causative sense when it should have been translated in the permissive sense."


This of course doesn't prove that God didn't create evil, just because Hagin said so, but it does show pretty unequivocally his position on it, and he is certainly a founder, considered THE founder by many. I find it interesting that Hagin didn't spend alot of time on this. He assumed this was a given. In fact, I myself find it rather surprising that we are even having this debate. This is not a uniquely WOF position, but is the historical position of much of the protestant and evangelical church. It never even occurred to me to include it in the Statement of Faith when we were creating it because I assumed it was settled. I thought it was simply understood.

On the other hand, just because I thought it was settled, doesn't mean that I don't want the debate. I enjoy the debate. I learn from the debate. My only position would be to state that we should be respectful in the debate and avoid inflammatory rhetoric, especially name calling, and labeling. We should be careful to offer no offense, and be slow to take it.

Thank you Troy for the link. I was going to start a search myself, but didn't have the time yet.

Peace...
 
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victoryword

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Thanks for the copy and paste DKB. I can't copy and paste that .pdf from my iPad so I had to provide a link.

While I vehemently disagree with the idea that God creates evil, I also welcome the continued debate--BUT--I still say that such maligns God's character and while I will not call anyone bad names, I will continue to call the teaching out for the horror that it is since we are not just dealing with a "principle" but God Himself.

Jesus was especially angry with the Pharisees for misrepresenting the Father, thus giving the people a burdensome picture of Him. Jesus came to show us that God is aloving Father. Always has been and always will be.
 
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DMW

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If God did not create evil,does it exist?

Thats what the Calvinists argue. If it exists, then God created it. Therefore, God creates evil. How can anyone live with such stupidity?
 
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now faith

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So we can agree when horrible things happen,the perpetrator has no God to his being.
We presume this because God would be a partaker in evil deeds if the perpetrator knew God.
There for the perpetrator has no free Will to accept God while in darkness.
 
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DMW

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So we can agree when horrible things happen,the perpetrator has no God to his being.
We presume this because God would be a partake in evil deeds if the perpetrator knew God.
There for the perpetrator has no free Will to accept God while in darkness.

If this were true, then everyone who got saved would never sin again. But they do. It is the testimony of every new and old testament saint that they did things that were ungodly after they were saved. So, the notion that any presence of sin means no presence of God makes no logical sense. A person can indeed have God, yet at times do evil things.

It's a theological leap to conclude that a person who sins has no ability to accept God because of evil in him. Again, you are quoting reformed theology which says man has no ability to choose, that salvation is by election at God's choosing. They believe that man's total depravity makes it impossible for a man to choose God, except God alone initiate and bring about his salvation.
Irresistible grace means if God has elected or chosen you as one of the lucky ones, you can't help but get saved.It's never any doing of your own, because in that system of theological confusion, God does everything, and you do nothing.
 
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now faith

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I am not quoting reformed theology on purpose,I am simply trying to figure yours and others points of view.
upon salvation we receive Christ in us and become part of the Body.
If after salvation we partake in evil,would that make God a partaker as well?
If we repent then again and again commit sin which is evil,does this make God a accessory?
 
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now faith

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Psalm: 78. 49. He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50. He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; - Bible Offline
6:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Exodus: 32. 14. And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. - Bible Offline

0] And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Here are some verses that are perplexing,please explain
 
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dkbwarrior

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I am not quoting reformed theology on purpose,I am simply trying to figure yours and others points of view.
upon salvation we receive Christ in us and become part of the Body.
If after salvation we partake in evil,would that make God a partaker as well?
If we repent then again and again commit sin which is evil,does this make God a accessory?

No, it would not make God a partaker as well because:

25 ... with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
-Romans 7:25

The spirit is saved, the flesh is corrupted. The believer is perfected in spirit:

22 .....ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
-Hebrews 12:22

and cannot sin:

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:9

We still live in corruptible flesh, which can (and does) commit sin. We live in hope of the future redemption of this corruptible flesh at the promise of His coming:

21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
-Romans 8:21-23

Therefore, because we are perfected in spirit, but live in corruptible flesh, we have to constantly choose whether we will listen to our spirit, or listen to our flesh. If we listen to the spirit we shall live, and be free of condemnation:

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
-Romans 8:1-4

If we listen to the flesh, we shall die:

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
-Romans 8:5-7

1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
-1 Corinthians 5:1-5

This is basic WOF doctrine, is it not?

Peace...
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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Hi there wof family,

Can anyone provide me with a reference from a wof teacher on how God DIDN'T create evil?
Please excuse yet one more posting of the answer to this question. There are people who visit the site and don't read too deep -- wouldn't want them to read this question without a link to our WoF teacher.

This is the most direct reference, but I'm afraid it proves they DO teach God creates evil in the manner I have been teaching.

Did God create evil? - Kenneth Copeland Ministries

Truthfrees said:
What book or online teaching includes at least a statement that God didn't create evil?
How about a statement -- no a blog article -- that says He DID??

Did God create evil? - Kenneth Copeland Ministries

Truthfrees said:
Is there a teaching that includes the scripture references wof use to teach God didn't create evil?
This one includes scripture references: Did God create evil? - Kenneth Copeland Ministries

Truthfrees said:
Some of you have done an excellent job of proving this from scripture, but I need a reference from a founding teacher on this.

:)

Again, sorry for the intrusion. I stayed out while people looked for what hasn't been talked about much. But Kenneth Copeland actually dealt with the subject head on:

Did God create evil? - Kenneth Copeland Ministries

Q: Did God create evil?

A: In the sense that God created the law of sowing and reaping, and under that law there are consequences to sin, He did.

Isaiah 45:7 states, “I make peace, and create evil.” The Hebrew word for create is bara and here it means "to bring about: bring into existence." The Hebrew word for evil is ra. It is never rendered sin, but evil (v. 7); calamity (Psalm 141:5); adversity (1 Samuel 10:19; Psalm 94:13; Ecclesiastes 7:14); grief (Nehemiah 2:10); sorrow (Genesis 44:29); trouble (Psalms 27:5, 41:1, 107:26); distress (Nehemiah 2:17); bad (Genesis 24:50, 31:24; Leviticus 27:10-14); affliction (Numbers 11:11; Zechariah 1:15); misery (Ecclesiastes 8:6); sore (Deuteronomy 6:22); noisome (Ezekiel 14:15, 21); hurt (Genesis 26:29); and wretchedness (Numbers 11:15).

The idea is that God has made the law of reaping, as well as the law of sowing, and evil and bad results will come when men sin. God has decreed that misery, wretchedness, sorrow, trouble and distress will come as a result of sin (Galatians 6:7-8).

Ra is translated evil 430 times and never with the idea that sin is created by God. If men sin and reap sin’s harvest, the responsibility for both is theirs. God simply made the law, and penalties for breaking the law will always be in force.​


Thanks for being so diligent about following the teachings of our founders and main WoF teachers. God bless you.
 
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dkbwarrior

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Please excuse yet one more posting of the answer to this question. There are people who visit the site and don't read too deep -- wouldn't want them to read this question without a link to our WoF teacher.

This is the most direct reference, but I'm afraid it proves they DO teach God creates evil in the manner I have been teaching.

Did God create evil? - Kenneth Copeland Ministries


How about a statement -- no a blog article -- that says He DID??

Did God create evil? - Kenneth Copeland Ministries


This one includes scripture references: Did God create evil? - Kenneth Copeland Ministries



Again, sorry for the intrusion. I stayed out while people looked for what hasn't been talked about much. But Kenneth Copeland actually dealt with the subject head on:

Did God create evil? - Kenneth Copeland Ministries

Q: Did God create evil?

A: In the sense that God created the law of sowing and reaping, and under that law there are consequences to sin, He did.

Isaiah 45:7 states, “I make peace, and create evil.” The Hebrew word for create is bara and here it means "to bring about: bring into existence." The Hebrew word for evil is ra. It is never rendered sin, but evil (v. 7); calamity (Psalm 141:5); adversity (1 Samuel 10:19; Psalm 94:13; Ecclesiastes 7:14); grief (Nehemiah 2:10); sorrow (Genesis 44:29); trouble (Psalms 27:5, 41:1, 107:26); distress (Nehemiah 2:17); bad (Genesis 24:50, 31:24; Leviticus 27:10-14); affliction (Numbers 11:11; Zechariah 1:15); misery (Ecclesiastes 8:6); sore (Deuteronomy 6:22); noisome (Ezekiel 14:15, 21); hurt (Genesis 26:29); and wretchedness (Numbers 11:15).

The idea is that God has made the law of reaping, as well as the law of sowing, and evil and bad results will come when men sin. God has decreed that misery, wretchedness, sorrow, trouble and distress will come as a result of sin (Galatians 6:7-8).

Ra is translated evil 430 times and never with the idea that sin is created by God. If men sin and reap sin’s harvest, the responsibility for both is theirs. God simply made the law, and penalties for breaking the law will always be in force.​


Thanks for being so diligent about following the teachings of our founders and main WoF teachers. God bless you.

Yes, I saw this link when Troy posted it; however, I don't see it as being quite the slam dunk that you imply Bob. First off, Copeland defines evil as being the punishment for sin, not sin itself; and secondly he qualifies it by saying "... in the sense" that God created the law of sowing and reaping He did. If we are talking about the creation of sin itself, Copeland specifically says that God did not create sin; rather, God created a law and there are certain ramifications for breaking that law.

What is the purpose of the law anyway? Did God establish laws in order to hurt us? I don't think either of us believe that. God established laws to protect us, and to bless us. However, if we misuse those laws, violate them, then we reap bad consequences. I look at it like the law of gravity. The law of gravity was not created to kill people. It was created to hold things, including mankind, to the planet surface; and in a larger sense to hold the entire universe together. A result of walking off a cliff or throwing oneself off the pinnacle of the temple as satan tried to get Jesus to do, is a long fall and likely death. But that was never the purpose of the law of gravity. It is an unintended side effect of not respecting the law.

Peace...
 
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victoryword

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Bob, I will grant that Copeland is not always clear in his teaching which often makes him an easy target to heresy hunters, but I still don't get how you get the idea that Copeland taught that God created evil. The only person who can get that from Copeland's link is someone who WANTS to see it in there.

However, if Copeland's link could be used to support this teaching, a clear exegesis of God's Word does not. The WORD trumps Hagin, Copeland, et al.

Nonetheless, we are discussing WoF founding fathers on this topic and we can see that Hagin did endorse the false idea that God creates evil.
 
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victoryword

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