God did not create evil.

lawtonfogle · Jul 14, 2008

MamaZ said:
Well My understanding is that evil is the absence of good.

Look at it like a number. Let say I'm counting sheep. An absence of sheep is 0. But what then it -2 sheep? Is that the action of the wolf killing two sheep?

The lack of good is neutral. If I choose to not do good, I'm most likely be selfish, and while that may be evil, as long as I don't hurt those around me, how can my 'evil' compare to those who slaughter hundreds, those who capture and torture and rape people again and again, killing some and feeding the dead to the others (ok, so I watched a documentary on a serial killer yesterday... pretty disturbing). That evil seems to be more than just a lack of good.

AmericanCatholic · Jul 17, 2008

Hismessenger said:
Even the evil is good for the purpose it was created for. Evil is a created thing. God is not created but is the creator of all things that exsist in this creation. Evil is not of God but created by God for His purpose in which He says that everything that He created was good, for who was it that placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden. Did it just spring forth of it's own accord?

hismessenger

Evil, by definition, is not good. They are inherent and fundamental contradictions. Therefore, if we are to say that God is love, that God is perfect, we cannot say that God is hate or imperfect. Likewise, we cannot suggest that this same perfect God created evil. In anticipation of the oft-repeated counter-argument that God created "all" things, I agree insofar that God created all things in accordance with his good and perfect nature. To suggest that God created evil presupposes that God is either not good or not perfect. Creation and purpose go hand-in-hand, and to suggest that evil has one or the other necessarily suggests that it has both. I reject the idea that evil has purpose inherent to it or was created by God. Evil has no purpose, which is why it leads to death. We can certainly learn from "evil", but that imposes our purposes onto evil; not vice versa. Evil does not exist as a creation of God. Evil exists as a consequence of a human will which irrationally rejects God.

squint · Jul 18, 2008

AmericanCatholic said:
Evil, by definition, is not good.

Evil is not "defined" as "not good" it is defined as evil is defined. You used an antonym in place of definition.

People often use the same gaffe with dark being the absence of light which is also false.

They are inherent and fundamental contradictions. Therefore, if we are to say that God is love, that God is perfect, we cannot say that God is hate or imperfect.

God hates many things including evil. That does not preclude God from creating something He hates.

A farmer may "hate" the smell of manure but knows it's beneficial for his goals and therefore puts up with something he hates.

Likewise, we cannot suggest that this same perfect God created evil.

God has a very well defined track record in the Old Testament of using and doing EVIL including the creation of evil.

In anticipation of the oft-repeated counter-argument that God created "all" things, I agree insofar that God created all things in accordance with his good and perfect nature. To suggest that God created evil presupposes that God is either not good or not perfect.

God's Being Perfect by "comparative definition" makes "all other things" less than God Perfect. We could classify "all things" UNDER God's Perfection. This does not mean that whatever God "creates" has to be the same as God Perfect. God created perfect men and perfect devils, yet neither of these is classed as God Perfect and a perfect devil is perfect in resistance and evil.

IF God is great enough to use EVIL for purposes that are good or perfect, then He is totally justified for doing so.

There are many scriptures that tell us "why" these things are so. 1 Corinthians 13's depiction of the qualities of LOVE for example tell us that God (who Is Love) is LONGsuffering. In order to long suffer there is an INSTRUMENT to suffer LONG with. Evil is one of those things. What is there to suffer long with without a FULCRUM?

Love proves itself with and by the uses of evil by OVER coming. Mercy is experienced by exposure to evil and the need created for Mercy ala Romans 11:32. Romans 9 tells us that God endures or puts up with vessels of dishonor to show His Superiority OVER those things.

HOPE is also formed by the use of evil in the creation of HOPE in us for it's eventual passing away.

Our own love from Him is "enhanced" by the exercise of LOVE's overcoming EVIL.

You cannot exclude God from the creation and use of CONTRASTING positions or created things.

Love has EVERY RIGHT to create and PROVE itself over all things, whatsoever those things may be.

Creation and purpose go hand-in-hand, and to suggest that evil has one or the other necessarily suggests that it has both. I reject the idea that evil has purpose inherent to it or was created by God. Evil has no purpose, which is why it leads to death. We can certainly learn from "evil", but that imposes our purposes onto evil; not vice versa. Evil does not exist as a creation of God. Evil exists as a consequence of a human will which irrationally rejects God.

Unfortunately for your pollyanna viewpoint, there are many many scriptures that tell us outright that God created ALL THINGS. There are ZERO exclusions to ALL THINGS. Evil did not just appear out of nothing NOR does EVIL create itself. Death is stated by the Apostle Paul to be OURS just as "all things" are and they ARE so by God's Will and Intent.

God "intended" His Son to PHYSICALLY DIE and OVERCOME by raising Him from death by the "power of Love."

enjoy!

squint

AmericanCatholic · Jul 18, 2008

Unfortunately for your pollyanna viewpoint, there are many many scriptures that tell us outright that God created ALL THINGS. There are ZERO exclusions to ALL THINGS. Evil did not just appear out of nothing NOR does EVIL create itself. Death is stated by the Apostle Paul to be OURS just as "all things" are and they ARE so by God's Will and Intent.

Let's ride the logic train one more time:

There are certainly exclusions to "all things". God did not create himself. Now you may certainly suggest that God is not a "thing" insofar that He was not created, but then you would be entering into a circular argument. If we concede here that there is an object in existence which was not created (or will you argue that God is not real?), then we also concede that such things are possible.

God hates many things including evil. That does not preclude God from creating something He hates.

It certainly does preclude Him if we are to believe that God is perfect and good according to his nature. A thing does not act in contradiction to its nature -- otherwise, it wouldn't be it's nature. God cannot be imperfect because it is his nature to be perfect. And since he is perfect, he can only be perfectly good. By arguing that God created evil, you must necessarily concede that God is imperfect, incomplete, or not good. You pick. You might as well suggest that God can create a rock He cannot possibly lift (he can do all things, right?). Both arguments (creating evil or the rock) are silly because they presuppose a false nature of God.

A farmer may "hate" the smell of manure but knows it's beneficial for his goals and therefore puts up with something he hates.

That does not suggest God created evil.

God "intended" His Son to PHYSICALLY DIE and OVERCOME by raising Him from death by the "power of Love."

That does not suggest God created evil.

You seem more concerned with God's power (his capacity) than his love (his nature).

squint · Jul 18, 2008

AmericanCatholic said:
Let's ride the logic train one more time:

There are certainly exclusions to "all things". God did not create himself.

No one said He did. The distinction was made in the prior post between God and the "all things."

Now you may certainly suggest that God is not a "thing" insofar that He was not created, but then you would be entering into a circular argument.

The Creator will be exempt from any of our intended boxes being far superior to any such constructs so your exemption is out of class.

If we concede here that there is an object in existence which was not created (or will you argue that God is not real?), then we also concede that such things are possible.

Now that's a circular argument.

It certainly does preclude Him if we are to believe that God is perfect and good according to his nature. A thing does not act in contradiction to its nature -- otherwise, it wouldn't be it's nature.

Uh, no, that would be you equating God as not being able to bring about whatever He desires from His Own Hand and merely looking at things, then equating THEM with God in some fashion.

God cannot be imperfect because it is his nature to be perfect.

Point conceeded with the extreme caveat that "we" have no way to horsecollar what Godly Perfection consists of in His Entirety. The "Entirety" of God is knowable and defineable only by God Himself. The same can be said of what such a Being is ABLE to do.

We find statements in text that God cannot lie, yet we find God's Direct involvment with LYING SPIRITS being directed by Him and being placed upon certain prophets in the O.T. So, excuse God from the "facts" if you want OR understand that multiple and simultaneous truths can be true about God and that "all things" serve Him even if it may not be perceived by us presently.

And since he is perfect, he can only be perfectly good.

By what standard would you suppose your God should bow to? Men's morals? Temporal measurements?

The Measure of Godly Perfection will remain quite far beyond our boxes, particularly those constructed by finite understandings.

By arguing that God created evil, you must necessarily concede that God is imperfect, incomplete, or not good.

I make no such concession as God is capable of erasing every act and action of evil and making good come from it. Evil then is merely a TOOL in His Hands.

God treats the devils with evil and contempt. So what? I have no problem with that. God even hates the workers of iniquity. So what? Does that make God imperfect.

What if God MADE the workers of iniquity for the exact intention of using and destroying them when finished? So what?

You pick.

Pick from what? Your limited construct? lol Your selective list is far from comprehensive.

You might as well suggest that God can create a rock He cannot possibly lift (he can do all things, right?).

IF you had all the information and potential abilities of God THEN you could say what God can or cannot do, but of course that will remain out of your or my grasp. I am not willing to say that contradictions do not serve God either in some way if merely to prove the ignorance of temporality guages and God's Abilities in order to limit Him.

Both arguments (creating evil or the rock) are silly because they presuppose a false nature of God.

You mean your imaginations of God's inabilities do not exceed your limited contradiction constructs? Perhaps both abilities are simultaneously true? If you had all the information, powers of multiple dimension operations, complete understanding of ANY AND ALL THINGS that God could or can do THEN you could really say that something is impossible with God but BECAUSE you do not have all of that at your disposal, you are employing another logical fallacy without those required pieces.

I will leave my own limited measures to the statement that ALL THINGS serve The Maker of ALL THINGS, whatsoever things may be even understanding that none of us will be able to capture what that may consist of presently.

That does not suggest God created evil.

Your quotient merely suggests that evil is an exception to ALL THINGS even though we have many direct statements from God that both say He creates and uses evil and many examples that directly implicate God IN the employment of evil, particularly of the retributive kind.

That does not suggest God created evil.

Whether you like it or not even retributive evil by God IS created BY God "in retribution" and that is a rather well established position particularly in the O.T.

God wiped out nearly the entire planet.
God ordered the killings of women and children.
God brought adultery into the home of David.
God used lying spirits and directed them.
God nearly continually employed retributive evil in the O.T.

etc etc etc

You seem more concerned with God's power (his capacity) than his love (his nature).

Not at all. I believe God unequivocally LOVES all of mankind and HATES all of devil kind. I also believe that God created BOTH entity classes for entirely different purposes.

Unfortunately these two positions are presently overlapped in the flesh so do the math on the difficulty factor to find understanding. There is no use to deny factual hatred of the devil IN mankind at the expense of love FOR MANKIND when BOTH FACTS are simultaneously TRUE now is there?

Too many people try to make this a one or another display when that employment is totally not necessary. I think all of us would agree that God probably hates Satan. I think all of us would agree that God made Satan. I think all of us would agree that resistance is presently employed, whether you think by God or NOT...it's just a scriptural fact. God Himself put a messenger of Satan upon PAUL and Paul admitted to that presence and God DID IT for specific cause, that Paul would know that inspite of that attachment, that GRACE was sufficient for Paul even though that attachment to him was made by God. So again, why deny the FACTS? Insulating our God from the facts is rather worthless isolation. No more than a carving of (influenced) imagination away from the reality of our lives.

You may say that mankind by their own wills allows satan to influence us. I say God could have easily blocked that from ever happening if He wanted to. God could have made both satan and mankind to never have to confront evil, but of course that is not the case of our present reality.

In these various employments there still arises HOPE, MERCY and the attributes of longsuffering in US all, and in that THOSE WORKINGS of evil have SERVED to that DIVINE INTENT of provocation of DIVINE QUALITIES...

In this quotient EVIL is GOD'S servant. When He is finished USING that power, it will be permanently set aside, which also is a portion of ALL of our mutual hopes.

enjoy!

squint

Hismessenger · Jul 18, 2008

American catholic,

Your arugement is the same as heard before but the question remains to you, what Can come into being in God's creation without His knowledge of and and sustaining power. What most who do not understand is that evil could not force itself into exsistance. It can not spring forth from the creator without His knowing for He holds all things that exsist into being by His being. Can you show any other way that this could be so. If you can then God's logic would have to be warped and man's logic on point. We know better than that now don't we.

hsmessenger

MamaZ · Jul 19, 2008

All God created was good. Then sin entered in.. Not by God but by the father of lies.

AmericanCatholic · Jul 19, 2008

So, excuse God from the "facts" if you want OR understand that multiple and simultaneous truths can be true about God and that "all things" serve Him even if it may not be perceived by us presently.

I am not willing to say that contradictions do not serve God either in some way if merely to prove the ignorance of temporality guages and God's Abilities in order to limit Him.

If you are willing to accept contradictions in your theology, then you are able to believe anything and in actuality have no theology at all. As a consequence, there's nothing left here to debate.

what Can come into being in God's creation without His knowledge of and and sustaining power. What most who do not understand is that evil could not force itself into exsistance. It can not spring forth from the creator without His knowing for He holds all things that exsist into being by His being.

Why do you assume that evil "[sprung] forth from the Creator" if God is good and perfect? My position is that evil is not a "thing". It was not created and it has no purpose (hence why it leads to death). If God sustains evil, then he consequently leads his own creation to death. That's an absurdity if we accept that God is love. Evil "exists" because the human will has the capacity to reject God, and it is that "hole" in man's heart in which evil persists. God destroys evil because God has purpose and life.

Hismessenger · Jul 19, 2008

So What you are saying is that God didn't know what was going to happen in what He created. That Evil was a surprize to Him and there fore did not come thru Him. Your logic is that of mans finite understanding. God is greater tham we can grasp and there fore we should not place our limited understanding upon what God has CREATED. Evil is a created thing or else it could not be in the creation for it is surely not a part of The image of and personage of God. Seperate but not equal is God from evil.

hismessenger

squint · Jul 19, 2008

AmericanCatholic said:
If you are willing to accept contradictions in your theology, then you are able to believe anything and in actuality have no theology at all. As a consequence, there's nothing left here to debate.

Meaning you have no responses. I've addressed the contradictions.

Why do you assume that evil "[sprung] forth from the Creator" if God is good and perfect?

Because "HE" can make good of EVIL.

My position is that evil is not a "thing". It was not created and it has no purpose (hence why it leads to death).

Evil amply employed throughout the text by God as previously noted.

If God sustains evil, then he consequently leads his own creation to death.

Death is a power:

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil

Evil is a power:

Habakkuk 2:9
Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!

God created all powers:

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

That's an absurdity if we accept that God is love.

God LOVED His Son, YET made His Son submitted to DEATH and RAISED Him from same.

Evil "exists" because the human will has the capacity to reject God,

And that will remain you blaming and accusing your fellow man and excusing your God.

and it is that "hole" in man's heart in which evil persists. God destroys evil because God has purpose and life.

Sins are NOT COUNTED against mankind, so WHY are YOU counting?

Sins ARE counted against the DEVIL and his messengers who are FOUND with mankind. Do you not understand this?

God HATES the devil.
God LOVES mankind.
God works EVIL to that which IS EVIL, the DEVIL.
God works GOOD to mankind.

Probverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The "wicked" are NOT your fellow man.

enjoy!

squint

squint · Jul 19, 2008

MamaZ said:
All God created was good. Then sin entered in.. Not by God but by the father of lies.

Jesus advised us the the devil was a liar AND a murderer "from the beginning" (John 8:44) i.e. MADE THAT WAY by God.

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

AmericanCatholic · Jul 19, 2008

Meaning you have no responses. I've addressed the contradictions.

It means your theology of contradictions cannot be addressed in any meaningful way because itself is meaningless. There is no debate with someone who willingly and knowingly accepts contradictions. If God is perfect, how can he be a contradiction? Either you accuse God of evil and hate, or, more essentially, you destroy the very thing that is God. He granted us the power of reason -- I suggest you use it.

So What you are saying is that God didn't know what was going to happen in what He created. That Evil was a surprize to Him and there fore did not come thru Him.

Where did I say that?

Your logic is that of mans finite understanding. God is greater tham we can grasp and there fore we should not place our limited understanding upon what God has CREATED.

Yours is an argument for ignorance. God granted us the power of our intellect to understand his Creation. Not to live smugly in our so-called faith. Of course God is greater than man -- otherwise he wouldn't be God. However, that doesn't help your argument any because you are demonstrating that your argument is not greater than mine.

Evil is a created thing or else it could not be in the creation for it is surely not a part of The image of and personage of God.

If it is not a "part of the image and personage of God" then where did it come from?

squint · Jul 19, 2008

AmericanCatholic said:
It means your theology of contradictions cannot be addressed in any meaningful way because itself is meaningless.

Statements apart from rebuttals?

You've seen scriptures with your own eyes that say God created evil. God created all powers. God created the wicked. God's use and employment of retributive evil.

There is no debate with someone who willingly and knowingly accepts contradictions.

Uh, what contradictions? You CANNOT theologically MAKE God the "same as" that which God created. That is a form of POLYTHEISM or even worldly philosophical Spinoza theory.

If God is perfect, how can he be a contradiction?

You are not getting your head around that fact that GOD does create "THINGS" and at the same time not BE THAT THING. The contradiction is in your own head.

Either you accuse God of evil and hate, or, more essentially, you destroy the very thing that is God. He granted us the power of reason -- I suggest you use it.

I'd suggest you face the reality of God's creation, use and deployment of EVIL as the scriptures present or you end up with the typical freewill posture that simply BLAMES AND ACCUSES mankind and EXCUSES God from any implications in HIS OWN CREATION.

If it is not a "part of the image and personage of God" then where did it come from?

Equating God with created things is borderline apostasy.

enjoy!

squint

AmericanCatholic · Jul 19, 2008

You've seen scriptures with your own eyes that say God created evil. God created all powers. God created the wicked. God's use and employment of retributive evil.

I've also seen Scripture which illustrates the Primacy of Peter and the institution of the sacraments. But I doubt you'll believe that.

Uh, what contradictions? You CANNOT theologically MAKE God the "same as" that which God created. That is a form of POLYTHEISM or even worldly philosophical Spinoza theory.

The most obvious one: that an all-powerful, good, and perfect being created evil.

You are not getting your head around that fact that GOD does create "THINGS" and at the same time not BE THAT THING. The contradiction is in your own head.

You've clearly illustrated your belief in a contradictory nature of God.

I'd suggest you face the reality of God's creation, use and deployment of EVIL as the scriptures present or you end up with the typical freewill posture that simply BLAMES AND ACCUSES mankind and EXCUSES God from any implications in HIS OWN CREATION.

Men are deservedly blamed for the sin which they practice. Or will you suggest that God has no basis for condemning men? Is God now unjust?

Equating God with created things is borderline apostasy.

Then why do you suggest that God created and practices evil?

squint · Jul 20, 2008

AmericanCatholic said:
I've also seen Scripture which illustrates the Primacy of Peter and the institution of the sacraments. But I doubt you'll believe that.

Uh huh. When confronted by facts change the subject.

The most obvious one: that an all-powerful, good, and perfect being created evil.

So saith scriptures. I suppose we should bow to your imaginations instead?

You've clearly illustrated your belief in a contradictory nature of God.

I'm still waiting for you to counter the abundance of scripture that outright states God created EVIL and EMPLOYS EVIL. Of course there isn't much sense to run your head into the scriptural wall on the subject.

Men are deservedly blamed for the sin which they practice.

That practice is NOT employed by God in Christ:

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Or will you suggest that God has no basis for condemning men? Is God now unjust?

Were God just by your measures you too should be condemned. God DOES count sins which are OF THE DEVIL against THE DEVIL. So what's yer beef?

Then why do you suggest that God created and practices evil?

Already stated multiple times now. Multiple scriptures state and show that God DOES practice EVIL including RETRIBUTIVE EVIL against the DEVIL and his messengers and THEY are IN mankind. Jesus gave us thousands of examples of THIS FACT including SATAN speaking through PETER...

enjoy!

squint

MamaZ · Jul 20, 2008

squint said:
Jesus advised us the the devil was a liar AND a murderer "from the beginning" (John 8:44) i.e. MADE THAT WAY by God.

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

So you are saying that the devil was never one of Gods good angels? And that it was his own rebellion that cast him down to earth? We can read about this in Ezekiel 28.

MamaZ · Jul 20, 2008

Eze 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
Eze 28:14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
Eze 28:16 "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you.
Eze 28:18 "By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you.
Eze 28:19 "All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever."'"
Eze 28:20 And the word of the LORD came to me saying,

squint · Jul 20, 2008

MamaZ said:
So you are saying that the devil was never one of Gods good angels? And that it was his own rebellion that cast him down to earth? We can read about this in Ezekiel 28.

Lucifer being "perfect" from the Isaiah 14 account comes with a big caveat..."IN ALL HIS WAYS."

There is not one single scripture in the entire Bible that says Satan was once "holy."

The term "angel" means "messenger" and is applied in scripture to holy angels, men and devils.

MamaZ · Jul 20, 2008

squint said:
Lucifer being "perfect" from the Isaiah 14 account comes with a big caveat..."IN ALL HIS WAYS."

There is not one single scripture in the entire Bible that says Satan was once "holy."

The term "angel" means "messenger" and is applied in scripture to holy angels, men and devils.

Verse 15, again:
Eze 28:15 "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

tâmîym
taw-meem'
entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

AmericanCatholic · Jul 20, 2008

squint said:
Uh huh. When confronted by facts change the subject.

You're having trouble keeping up. We've read the same scripture. You claim that God creating evil is plain and clear. I disagree. I claim that the Primacy of Peter is clear. You'd disagree. The point: your claims are not plain and clear simply because you believe them to be so.

So saith scriptures. I suppose we should bow to your imaginations instead?

There's nothing imaginative about it. I'm not suspending natural reason to justify contradictory beliefs.

I'm still waiting for you to counter the abundance of scripture that outright states God created EVIL and EMPLOYS EVIL. Of course there isn't much sense to run your head into the scriptural wall on the subject.

You've been provided plenty of Scriptural explanations by other posters on this thread.

That practice is NOT employed by God in Christ:

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

What happens to those who do not accept Christ?

Were God just by your measures you too should be condemned. God DOES count sins which are OF THE DEVIL against THE DEVIL.

What happens to those who do not accept Christ?

God did not create evil.

My solace my terror, my terror my solace.

See name above

Well-Known Member

See name above

Well-Known Member

Senior Member

MamaZ

Guest

See name above

Senior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

See name above

Well-Known Member

See name above

Well-Known Member

MamaZ

Guest

MamaZ

Guest

Well-Known Member

MamaZ

Guest

See name above

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency