• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

God creates evil...

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by Avid, Jun 6, 2015.

  1. Avid

    Avid A Pilgrim and a Sojourner...

    +659
    Baptist
    Married
    God, our LORD, creates evil, as well as everything else. What do you think of that?

    Isaiah 45
    7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    I have opinions, and will allow others to post before I put in my 2¢ worth!
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2015
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

    +107,535
    Non-Denom
    Private
    US-Constitution
    *subscribing*
     
  3. Pedrito

    Pedrito Newbie

    165
    +25
    Christian
    Married
    Some info regarding the word translated “evil” (Strong's H7451).

    The Brown-Driver-Briggs lexicon (dictionary) gives these meanings:

    “evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity, adversity, injury, wrong, evil (ethical)”.

    The Strong's lexicon says much the same.

    May I submit for consideration that the word often translated “evil” in Isaiah 45:7 is better understood as:
    • “calamity” as in the KJ2000, NASB, WEB, ESV;
    • “calamity and affliction” as in Bullinger;
    • “disaster” as in the NIV, CSV;
    • “misfortune” as in Rotherham;
    • “woe” as in the RSV;
    • “hardship” as in the LBP.

    May I also use this occasion to recommend the use of one or more of the incredibly good free Bible programs, with their multitude of resources.

    Two of the very best are:
    For anyone interested in deeper study at the original language level, I would suggest trying the Interlinear Scripture Analyser – www.scripture4all.org.
     
  4. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

    +4,938
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Hi avid,

    It is my understanding that Pedrito is correct in allowing that the hebrew word can be translated as calamity and disaster, however, whether one chooses to use these other words is simply a matter of semantics. I can't imagine that man doesn't see the flood as evil as far as the disaster and calamity that it brought upon those living in that day. I would also imagine that any of the Egyptian mothers and fathers to whom their boys didn't come home from chasing the Israelites, would consider the drowning of so many as evil.

    God never says that He doesn't bring evilness upon mankind, just that He is righteous in His judgments. Evil can be a two sided coin. As in the destruction of the Egyptian army, the Egyptians would certainly account the work of God in that as evil, the Israelites counted it as a blessing. Many would see the death of Jesus as evil. After all, he was beaten and spat upon and then killed for no good reason. All purposed and planned by God that men might be saved. The prophet wrote centuries before about Jesus slaughter and beating. I see it as a blessing. So, whether or not one accounts some particular event as evil will often depend on which side that person is on.

    BTW, the word is 'evil' not 'sin'.

    God bless you.
    In Christ, Ted
     
  5. Avid

    Avid A Pilgrim and a Sojourner...

    +659
    Baptist
    Married
    CORRECT. It is EVIL, all the things listed in that definition, and all the things you mentioned. EVIL is not WICKEDNESS. It may come from wicked people, and it may be to allow wickedness to flourish when good people allow bad things. It may, sometimes, be the righteous judgment of God upon the wicked.

    When some young person ran into the back of my wife's car, or some old guy side-swiped mine, it was evil, but in both cases, we were moved to MERCY, as a leading of the LORD. It was EVIL, and as my wife mentioned, may have been used to get this girl to NOT be typing text or using the phone while driving. It may be to show these people something important, while it gave us an exercise in following the leading of the LORD.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2015
  6. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

    +4,938
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Hi avid,

    Yes, sadly there are those who always equate 'evil' as 'sin'. Thereby inferring that because God does create evil He is a sinner and not worthy of our praise, adoration and love. I am willing to allow God to be God and understand, through the study of His Scriptures, that He has a plan and will stop at nothing to see that His plan unfolds as He desires. What may seem as evil to us in our human understanding, especially when referring to the things that God does, is often a blessing to some.

    Paul speaks of a man in a congregation who is living in sin, having his father's wife. He encourages the fellowship to put him out and to many that part seems 'not right'. After all, aren't we all sinners? But as we continue reading we see that Paul tells us that by putting the man out of fellowship he may actually be blessed by coming to his senses and truly seek after God and seek forgiveness of his sin. So, yes, sometimes God will use evil to bring about righteousness and blessing.

    In the old covenant we read of all the blessings that Israel will receive for being faithful to God and His commands. We also read of the wickedness that would come upon them as punishments if they don't. I am convicted that the punishments are not meant to merely punish wickedness, but because God then repeatedly asks Israel to come back to Him, that there is a motive of using the pain and suffering brought about by their wickedness to drive them back to faithfulness. A blessing. The prophet Isaiah wrote of them:

    "I reared children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me. The ox knows his master, the donkey his owner's manger, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand." Ah, sinful nation, a people loaded with guilt, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the LORD; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him. Why should you be beaten anymore? Why do you persist in rebellion? Your whole head is injured, your whole heartafflicted. From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness-- only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil. Your country is desolate, your cities burned with fire; your fields are being stripped by foreigners right before you, laid waste as when overthrown by strangers. The Daughter of Zion is left like a shelter in a vineyard, like a hut in a field of melons, like a city under siege. Unless the LORD Almighty had left us some survivors, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah! "The multitude of your sacrifices-- what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations-- I cannot bear your evil assemblies. Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts my soul hates. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood; wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow. "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken. See how the faithful city has become a harlot! She once was full of justice; righteousness used to dwell in her-- but now murderers! Your silver has become dross, your choice wine is diluted with water. Your rulers are rebels, companions of thieves; they all love bribes and chase after gifts. They do not defend the cause of the fatherless; the widow's case does not come before them. Therefore the Lord, the LORD Almighty, the Mighty One of Israel, declares: "Ah, I will get relief from my foes and avenge myself on my enemies. I will turn my hand against you; I will thoroughly purge away your dross and remove all your impurities. I will restore your judges as in days of old, your counselors as at the beginning. Afterward you will be called the City of Righteousness, the Faithful City." Zion will be redeemed with justice, her penitent ones with righteousness. But rebels and sinners will both be broken, and those who forsake the LORD will perish. "You will be ashamed because of the sacred oaks in which you have delighted; you will be disgraced because of the gardens that you have chosen. You will be like an oak with fading leaves, like a garden without water. The mighty man will become tinder and his work a spark; both will burn together, with no one to quench the fire."

    Clearly God seems to be asking them to consider that the wickedness brought upon them by His design can be remedied by returning to faithfulness. If they would only choose to do so, then the wickedness would have been a blessing to them. Just as God says to them, 'Come, let us reason together.' He wants them to understand that there is a remedy for their suffering.

    God bless you as you seek Him.
    In Christ, Ted
     
  7. Avid

    Avid A Pilgrim and a Sojourner...

    +659
    Baptist
    Married
    About three times you said "wickedness" when I think you meant "evil." My reason for the thread is to help others see the difference as it has been shown here in just about every post. Just pointing that out, as the wrong word choice, by preachers and churchgoers alike, has been a problem in this area and other areas as well.
     
  8. JM

    JM Particular Baptist Supporter

    +2,837
    Canada
    Protestant
    Married
    CA-Others
    Calamity can be evil... All things in time are purposed from eternity, including evil...which find there decree in God.

    Zanchius:

    God, as the primary and efficient cause of all things, is not only the Author of those actions done by His elect as actions, but also as they are good actions, whereas, on the other hand, though He may be said to be the Author of all the actions done by the wicked, yet He is not the Author of them in a moral and compound sense as they are sinful; but physically, simply and sensu diviso as they are mere actions, abstractedly from all consideration of the goodness or badness of them.

    Although there is no action whatever which is not in some sense either good or bad, yet we can easily conceive of an action, purely as such, without adverting to the quality of it, so that the distinction between an action itself and its denomination of good or evil is very obvious and natural.

    In and by the elect, therefore, God not only produces works and actions through His almighty power, but likewise, through the salutary influences of His Spirit, first makes their persons good, and then their actions so too; but, in and by the reprobate, He produces actions by His power alone, which actions, as neither issuing from faith nor being wrought with a view to the Divine glory, nor done in the manner prescribed by the Divine Word, are, on these accounts, properly denominated evil. Hence we see that God does not, immediately and per se, infuse iniquity into the wicked; but, as Luther expresses it, powerfully excites them to action, and withholds those gracious influences of His Spirit, without which every action is necessarily evil. That God either directly or remotely excites bad men as well as good ones to action cannot be denied by any but Atheists, or by those who carry their notions of free-will and human independency so high as to exclude the Deity from all actual operation in and among His creatures, which is little short of Atheism. Every work performed, whether good or evil, is done in strength and by the power derived immediately from God Himself, “in whom all men live, move, and have their being” (Acts 17.28). As, at first, without Him was not anything made which was made, so, now, without Him is not anything done which is done. We have no power or faculty, whether corporal or intellectual, but what we received from God, subsists by Him, and is exercised in subserviency to His will and appointment. It is He who created, preserves, actuates and directs all things. But it by no means follows, from these premises, that God is therefore the cause of sin, for sin is nothing but auomia, illegality, want of conformity to the Divine law (1 John 3.4), a mere privation of rectitude; consequently, being itself a thing purely negative, it can have no positive or efficient cause, but only a negative and deficient one.

    Zanchius explains:

    That God often lets the wicked go on to more ungodliness, which He does (a) negatively by withholding that grace which alone can restrain them from evil; (b) remotely, by the providential concourse and mediation of second causes, which second causes, meeting and acting in concert with the corruption of the reprobate’s unregenerate nature, produce sinful effects; (c) judicially, or in a way of judgment. “The King’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of waters; He turneth it whithersoever He will” (Prov. 21.1); and if the King’s heart, why not the hearts of all men? “Out of the mouth of the Most High proceedeth not evil and good?” (Lam. 3.38). Hence we find that the Lord bid Shimei curse David (2 Sam. 16.10); that He moved David himself to number the people (compare 1 Chron. 21.1 with 2 Sam. 24.1); stirred up Joseph’s brethren to sell him into Egypt (Genesis 50.20); positively and immediately hardened the heart of Pharaoh (Exod. 4.21); delivered up David’s wives to be defiled by Absalom (2 Sam. 12.11; 16.22); sent a lying spirit to deceive Ahab (1 Kings 22.20-23), and mingled a perverse spirit in the midst of Egypt, that is, made that nation perverse, obdurate and stiff-necked (Isa. 19.14). To cite other instances would be almost endless, and after these, quite unnecessary, all being summed up in that express passage, “I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things” (Isa. 45.7). See farther, 1 Sam. 16.14; Psalm 105.25; Jer. 13.12,13; Acts 2.23, & 4.28; Rom. 11.8; 2 Thess. 2.11, every one of which implies more than a bare permission of sin. Bucer asserts this, not only in the place referred to below, but continually throughout his works, particularly on Matt. 6. § 2, where this is the sense of his comments on that petition, “Lead us not into temptation”: “It is abundantly evident, from most express testimonies of Scripture, that God, occasionally in the course of His providence, puts both elect and reprobate persons into circumstances of temptation, by which temptation are meant not only those trials that are of an outward, afflictive nature, but those also that are inward and spiritual, even such as shall cause the persons so tempted actually to turn aside from the path of duty, to commit sin, and involve both themselves and others in evil. Hence we find the elect complaining, ‘O Lord, why hast Thou made us to err from Thy ways, and hardened our hearts from Thy fear?’ (Isaiah 63.17). But there is also a kind of temptation, which is peculiar to the non-elect, whereby God, in a way of just judgment, makes them totally blind and obdurate, inasmuch as they are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.” (See also his exposition of Rom. 9.)
     
  9. JM

    JM Particular Baptist Supporter

    +2,837
    Canada
    Protestant
    Married
    CA-Others
    Gill on Isa. 45.7 is speaking of the evil involved in the punishment for sin which includes "afflictions, adversities, and calamities" which are delivered by God on sinful humanity. The note from the Geneva Bible on this issue reads, "I send peace and war, prosperity and adversity, as in (Amo_3:6)." This verse means "evil" but not "sin" which I think people get hung up on.

    Gilbert Beebe echos Gill:

    But the term evil as used in our text we understand to mean judgments, calamities, afflictions and chastisements which are sent upon the children of men. They come not up out of the ground, nor do they fall upon us by chance. God’s careful providence watches over us, and no evil can come nigh our dwelling except meted out in weight and measure, time, duration and result, by the unerring wisdom and power of God himself. As it is written, “Is there evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?” Job said, “Shall we receive good from the Lord, and not evil?” That is, shall we receive prosperity, and not adversity, pleasure and not pain, joy and not sorrow? Wars, famine, and pestilence are evils, which come and go at God’s command. And persecution and oppression are under his control. Men are used by him as his sword and his hand; devils and wicked men are restrained or suffered to vent their malice, as God ordains. And under this conviction we are instructed to pray God to, “Lead us not into temptation, but to deliver us from evil,” and to shield us in the day of evil. As in our text light is contrasted with darkness, so is evil contrasted with peace. “I make peace and create evil.” By withholding peace and bringing evil upon them, that is. The Israelites received evil at the hand of the Lord for their rebellion and idolatry when he sent fiery serpents into their camps, and when he caused their enemies to triumph over them. And so in his dealings with his children, sometimes he sends on them fiery trials, deep afflictions, sore temptations which disturb their peace, and bring labor, sorrow and grief upon them for the trial of their faith, and as chastisement for their faults. End quote.

    Yours in the Lord,


    jm
     
  10. JM

    JM Particular Baptist Supporter

    +2,837
    Canada
    Protestant
    Married
    CA-Others
    ca·lam·i·ty

    noun
    noun: calamity; plural noun: calamities
    an event causing great and often sudden damage or distress; a disaster.

    I know modern translations prefer to translate the Hebrew word "ra" as calamity...what do you say?

    Quote:

    An adjective meaning bad, evil. The basic meaning of this word displays ten or more various shades of the meaning of evil according to its contextual usage. It means bad in a moral and ethical sense and is used to describe, along with good, the entire spectrum of good and evil; hence, it depicts evil in an absolute, negative sense, as when it describes the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:9; Gen 3:5, Gen 3:22). It was necessary for a wise king to be able to discern the evil or the good in the actions of his people (Ecc 12:14); men and women are characterized as evil (1Sa 30:22; Est_7:6; Jer 2:33). The human heart is evil all day long (Gen 6:5) from childhood (Gen 8:21); yet the people of God are to purge evil from among them (Deu 17:7). The Lord is the final arbiter of whether something was good or evil; if something was evil in the eyes of the Lord, there is no further court of appeals (Deu 9:18; 1Ki 14:22). The day of the Lord's judgment is called an evil day, a day of reckoning and condemnation (Amo 6:3). Jacob would have undergone grave evil (i.e., pain, misery, and ultimate disaster) if he had lost Benjamin (Gen 44:34). The word can refer to circumstances as evil, as when the Israelite foremen were placed in a grave situation (Exo 5:19; 2Ki 14:10).

    The word takes on the aspect of something disagreeable, unwholesome, or harmful. Jacob evaluated his life as evil and destructive (Gen_47:9; Num_20:5); and the Israelites considered the wilderness as a threatening, terrifying place. The Canaanite women were evil in the eyes of Isaac (i.e., displeasing [Gen 28:8]). The rabble's cry within Israel for meat was displeasing in the eyes of Moses (Num 11:10). This word describes the vicious animal that killed Joseph, so Jacob thought (Gen 37:33). The despondent countenances of persons can be described by this word; the baker's and the butler's faces were downcast because of their dreams (Gen 40:7). It can also describe one who is heavy in heart (Pro 25:20). In a literal sense, the word depicts something that is of poor quality or even ugly in appearance. The weak, lean cows of Pharaoh's dream were decrepit, ugly-looking (Gen 41:3, Gen 41:20, Gen 41:27); poisonous drinking water was described as bad (2Ki 2:19; 2Ki_4:41). From these observations, it is clear that the word can be used to attribute a negative aspect to nearly anything. Used as a noun, the word indicates realities that are inherently evil, wicked, or bad; the psalmist feared no evil (Psa 23:4). The noun also depicts people of wickedness, that is, wicked people. Aaron characterized the people of Israel as inherently wicked in order to clear himself (Exo 32:22). Calamities, failures, and miseries are all connotations of this word when it is used as a noun. End quote.

    Isaiah 45:7

    KJV- I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    ESV- I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

    Lamentations 3:37-38

    KJV- Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

    ESV- Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?

    Gordon H. Clark, Predestination, Presbyterian & Reformed, 1987, pp. 185-188:

    The Scofield Bible is a good example of how Arminians try to escape from the plain meaning of the verse. Scofield says, “ra, translated ‘sorrow,’ ‘wretchedness,’ ‘adversity,’ ‘afflictions,’ ‘calamities,’ but never translated SIN. God created evil only in the sense that he made sorrow, wretchedness, etc., to be the sure fruits of sin.”

    Now the most remarkable point about Scofield’s note is that he told the truth when he said, “RA . . . [is] never translated sin.” How could he have made such a statement, knowing it was true? The only answer is that he must have examined every instance of RA in the Hebrew text and then he must have determined that in no case did the King James translate it sin. And this is absolutely true. But if he compared every instance of RA with its translation in every case, he could not have failed to note that RA in Genesis 6:5 and in a number of other places is translated WICKEDNESS. In fact RA is translated wickedness some fifty times. Scofield could not have failed to notice this; so he says with just truth, RA is never translated sin. Since Scofield favors the word EVIL, a partial list of verses in which this translation occurs will be given; and second there will be a partial list where WICKED or WICKEDNESS is used.

    Going through the Bible, Scofield must have read as far as Genesis 2:9, 17; 3:5, 22; 6:5; 8:21; 44:4; 48:16; 50:15, 17, 20. “The knowledge of good and EVIL” is simply a knowledge of sorrow or calamity; it is primarily a knowledge of disobedience and sin. Similarly, Genesis 3:5, 22 refers as much to sin as to its punishment. In fact Genesis 3:22 hardly refers to punishment at all. True, Adam was banished from the garden; but the word EVIL in the verse refers to his disobedience and sin.

    Whatever lame excuse can be given for excluding sin and retaining only punishment in the previous four verses, Genesis 6:5 is clearly and indisputably a reference to sin. God did not see “adversity” or “afflictions”; he saw sinful thoughts. RA, in this verse at any rate, means sin. The same is true of Genesis 8:21. In fact sin and its punishment are separated here. God will not again curse or smite, as he had just done, for man’s heart is evil. The flood was a punishment, but the evil was the sinful heart of man.

    Toward the end of Genesis RA refers to an alleged theft, many sins from which the Angel had redeemed Jacob, and three times the brothers’ sin against Joseph. In 50:17 again the sin is easily distinguishable from the feared punishment.

    Is it necessary to plod through all the Old Testament to show that RA often means sin as distinct from its punishment? It should not be necessary; but to show the pervasiveness of the doctrine and the perverseness of Arminianism, something from II Chronicles will be listed: 22:4; 29:6; 36:5, 9, 12. Ahab did EVIL in the sight of the Lord. Our fathers have trespassed and done evil in the eyes of the Lord. Manasseh did evil in the sight of the Lord. He wrought much evil in the sight of the Lord. Jehoiakim did evil in the sight of the Lord. . . .

    Evil, RA, is not once TRANSLATED sin. Very strange, but true.

    Then there is Isaiah 56:2; 57:1; 59:7, 15; 65:12; 66:4. All instances of RA, or EVIL.

    Now, if Scofield knew that RA was never translated SIN, he must have known that it was often translated WICKEDNESS. WICKEDNESS or WICKED, as the translation of RA occurs in Genesis 6:5; 13:13; 38:7; 39:9. Also in Deuteronomy 13:11 and 17:2. Also in I Samuel 30:22 and II Samuel 3:39. I Kings 2:44; Nehemiah 9:35; Esther 7:6, 9, 25. And Proverbs 21:12; 26:23, 26. Nor are these the only instances.

    Scofield told the literal truth when he said it is never translated SIN. But nothing could be more false than his statement, “ God created evil ONLY in the sense that he made sorrow, wretchedness, etc., to be the sure fruits of sin.”

    The scriptural meaning of the word RA, has now been abundantly made clear. But there is another point too. If RA means simply external calamities, then the word PEACE, which God also creates, can mean only military peace. The phrases are parallel. But this interpretation reduces the verse, orTHIS PART OF THE VERSE, to triviality. Even verse one can hardly be restricted to purely political matters. Verse three speaks of treasures of darkness, hidden riches, and the knowledge of God. Jacob my servant and Israel my elect are not phrases to be restricted to politics and economics. Verse 6 speaks of the extension of the knowledge of God throughout the world. Then comes “I make peace and create evil.” Merely military peace? Not peace with God? The next verse speaks of righteousness dropping down from heaven, not like dew, but like pouring rain. Bring forth salvation, let righteousness spring up together. I the Lord have created it.

    O, Arminian, Arminian, thou that distortest the prophets and misinterpretest them that are sent unto thee; how often have I told your children the plain truth . . . and ye would not let them understand! NOTE: This is an alternate of Dr. John Gill’s unique translation of this verse, which Clark was very fond of! He was not so fond of certain aspects of his other interpretations.

    There is still more in this chapter from Isaiah. Once again we find the potter and the clay. It indicates that God is not responsible to man. Woe to the man who complains that God has made him or anyone else a vessel of dishonor. The clay has no ‘rights’ against the potter. Nor does it have any free will to decide what sort of a bowl or jug it shall be.
     
  11. Kirsten

    Kirsten Active Member

    461
    +127
    Christian
    Evil is the absence of God.
     
  12. Kirsten

    Kirsten Active Member

    461
    +127
    Christian
    Correct. Sin is "missing the mark" of perfection. Anything not perfect is sin.

    .
     
  13. Avid

    Avid A Pilgrim and a Sojourner...

    +659
    Baptist
    Married
    Again, I think the proper word choice is wickedness or sin. The evil is, as was stated, calamity, ruin, trouble, disaster or hardship. This is created by God, as is EVERYTHING, according to this verse in Isaiah.

    God created Lucifer, but did not cause his wickedness. Evil comes as Satan works against God, but evil will surely come upon Satan as a sure judgment in the end!!!.
     
  14. Kirsten

    Kirsten Active Member

    461
    +127
    Christian
    I agree.
     
  15. John Robie

    John Robie Just checking in. Supporter

    698
    +110
    Christian
    I think looking at Job helps. Because I believe in the sovereignty of God, I believe it was always His plan to bring calamity (evil) upon Job. Satan was the one who actually brought evil upon Job. But it was not outside of God's will.
     
  16. Avid

    Avid A Pilgrim and a Sojourner...

    +659
    Baptist
    Married
    Very interesting! I do not doubt that being true. God actually initiated the discussion, and brought up Job's name, while Satan was there in the gathering of other angels to report to the Almighty God. It is not at all out of reason to think that.

    In I Peter 1:7, this trial of our faith is more valuable than GOLD. He is specifically referring to the finest, and most pure gold.

    I Peter 1
    7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

    We should not see these things as a judgment of God, if we believe God, and trust Him with our eternal souls.
     
  17. twin1954

    twin1954 Baptist by the Bible

    +1,460
    Calvinist
    Married
    Nothing that God brings on the believer is a judgment. We have already been judged in Christ. Trials and trouble are most often the simple outcome of our actions but they are intended by God to teach us and correct us. He chastises His people but it isn't a judgment of them.

    On the other hand for the unbeliever such things are tokens of His judgment. Floods, earthquakes, hurricanes and such are tokens of judgment to the unbelieving world and they would do well to take heed of that fact. They are not His judgment but tokens of it.
     
  18. Avid

    Avid A Pilgrim and a Sojourner...

    +659
    Baptist
    Married
    So very true! Thanks for posting that.
     
  19. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

    +307
    Baptist
    Married
    NlT Isa 45: 7 I create the light and make the darkness.
    I send good times and bad times.
    I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.

    God created an angel who choose to go against Him and became evil, and known as satan. God did not create evil to go against God against the creator is evil. Evil was not always around because it was not always possible to go against God.
     
  20. joshuanazar

    joshuanazar Servant

    530
    +95
    Christian
    Married
    In your post above you pretty much explain that evil is relative to the observer, thus making morals relative and a moral law from God impossible. If the reality of what is good or evil is subjective to the person than one could say that the Holocaust was good since the Nazi's believed so. The Egyptians might have viewed the Plagues as evil, but does their opinion change the reality that the plagues were an act of God and therefore good? You see the tree that Adam wasn't supposed to eat from was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. That means that good and evil are complete opposites and if God is good than he cannot be evil. Thus evil is a sin and it is not relative but absolute. To say otherwise is to say that we can be evil and there is no problem.
     
Loading...