God creates evil.

drich0150 said:

What "this" says is that the world is populated by evil men who blame the devil for the conditions of their own hearts. Men choose to maliciously pursue and commit sin of their own accord. The "devil made me do it" is not going to be an accepted defense at your or anyone's judgment.

Ok.

That Satan still yields to the Authority of God? I thought I communicated that in my last post.

Your god controls your devil?

Yeah, that's false. Here to tell ya. You might believe it's true, but just because a 2000 year old myth book says so, does not make it so. I'm surprised they got it as right as they did, considering they were mostly uneducated goat herders.

Or simply Ignore whole sections to say He is not.

An abusive father is still a father, yes?

After all, satan is called people's fathers too, isn't he?

Whether one is a father says nothing of the quality of parental care they distribute.

Ah, no. I have witnessed too much personally to dismiss "Much Spiritually." Perhaps I am at a point where I do not need someone to provide me with a way of deflecting my own sin and evil onto another being. When I commit evil acts I own them. Because of this I know I need to seek forgiveness. Then I take my sin to God, where it is forgiven. That is how sin and repentance works.

However if I went though life telling myself that I am basically a "good" person and what ever sin or evil I commit is not of me but of the devil's influence then I will never know the conviction required to truly repent. If I were left unchecked long enough I would even turn on God for not protecting me from Satan.

Which in of itself is the only legacy Satan left after His defeat at the cross... Deception and Temptation. To which those who do not accept their own sins are subject to. Being made "spiritually aware" has blinded you to the only real dangers Satan has left. You have been lulled to sleep by made to stand watch for all the evil in Satan's arsenal.

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You're harping about sin? If you're still going on about sin, you can't be very spiritual. Religious, yes... spiritual, no. They're not the same.

You've been blinded by religious ideals and dogma carefully crafted to control the masses in pursuit of clergy's lust for power and worldly wealth.

The truth is, God is all around us. Most just simply do not recognize that. One could find God in a Buddhist Temple, if he wanted to. You choose to ignore that fact, instead erecting religious dogma and doctrines over reality, which is to experience God.

seekingagnostic32 said:

It's not so much belief, it's more when you've seen what I have, you accept it as true. Belief implies not knowing. I don't know exactly what they are, but malevolent is about right. Most christians don't even know anything about this sort of thing, which is quite strange if you ask me.

Existing? Why not exist? Life is what you make of it. I'd like to think I am here to be happy and fulfill destiny, whatever it may be.

I don't plan on dying. I'm not 100% sure what occurs when someone dies. I have heard many stories of people meeting a "light" that is "love" and "goodness". Those NDEs are hard to argument with. I can't argue with people's own personal experience or testimonies.

One purpose may be to exist to enjoy creation, as God probably did not make creation for any other purpose but for us to enjoy and to point to his glory. Revelation says all things were made for his glory.

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You are going to die, even if you don't plan on it. If God simply made us to enjoy this world, He did a poor job because many rightoeous and good people do not enjoy this world and die horrible deaths at the hands of evil people. I have seen things spiritually, but never evil things, so I am unable to relate to you on that. All the evil I have ever seen has been man made.

seekingagnostic32 said:

I don't know of too many, if any, christians doing any loving. Judgmental, hypocritical bigotry rarely qualifies as loving.

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If you are unable to see any Christians helping people you are chosing to be blind. Walk into any church and watch what they do. You will see Christian showing love to others. Go watch some Salvation Army people for awhile.

seekingagnostic32 said:

then why would anybody want to worship this then?

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I can't answer for anyone else. But for me...what I want is irrelevant. For some reason known only to God, I was granted faith that all this apparent nonsense is true. If I believe that this God exists, and that he commands me to worship, well...what else can I do but worship?

I don't always like it. God appears to me as a fact of life, like rain or wind or influenza. If something appears true, you do your best with it. Why scream at God? You might as well stand in a downpour insisting that you don't believe the rain is wet.

God made man with perfect knowledge that man would fall. He put the mechanism of this fall within arms reach of his imperfect creature. That's the truth. The best we can do is deal with it.

Myshkin99 said:

I can't answer for anyone else. But for me...what I want is irrelevant. For some reason known only to God, I was granted faith that all this apparent nonsense is true. If I believe that this God exists, and that he commands me to worship, well...what else can I do but worship?

I don't always like it. God appears to me as a fact of life, like rain or wind or influenza. If something appears true, you do your best with it. Why scream at God? You might as well stand in a downpour insisting that you don't believe the rain is wet.

God made man with perfect knowledge that man would fall. He put the mechanism of this fall within arms reach of his imperfect creature. That's the truth. The best we can do is deal with it.

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In the Bible God says come let us reason together. I don't think faith has to be nonsence and I don't think it being nonsence means we are are on the right path. I agree we do not have to understand God to be His child and I understand we all make many mistakes in our theology. but I don't think it is wise to assume something is true just because we believe it to be true. I don't advocate screaming at God either and I certainly don't expect to ever be able to see and understand God clearly and completely this side of the grave. However if our theology is nonsence, maybe we should continue to struggle to understand a bit more and perhaps correct some of our mistakes. I don't think God is responsible for man being imperfect. I think all the responsibility for that is man's. God is to be praised for giving us the opportunity to chose wisely and lovingly--now it is up to us to do it.

seekingagnostic32 said:

Your god controls your devil?

Yeah, that's false.

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I said Satan yields to the Authority of God. You said that is false. Are you saying God yields to the authority of Satan?

Here to tell ya. You might believe it's true, but just because a 2000 year old myth book says so, does not make it so. I'm surprised they got it as right as they did, considering they were mostly uneducated goat herders.

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So you are willing to believe this "2000 year old Myth Book" when it describes Satan, but have decided to ignore everything else, just to fill in the blanks yourself? If the "Goat Herders" got it wrong then what makes you think you got it right? Who gave you your revelation? God's Revelation has been written by the goat herders, so again who gave you yours?

An abusive father is still a father, yes?

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Not if you take and consider the literal definition of the Hebrew word. A Father had a specific role to play.

You're harping about sin? If you're still going on about sin, you can't be very spiritual. Religious, yes... spiritual, no. They're not the same.

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Being "Religious or Spiritual" rank so low on my list of behaviors I wish to emulate, I do not consider either of them when I am deciding how to live my life or even answer your questions. Rather I take passages like this one to tailor my responses:

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

My Sin, my continual sin is a weakness. It is a thorn in my flesh one that causes great spiritual infirmities, It is these thorns that keep me humble. It is these thorns, and comments from people who throw stones not giving a thought to their own sin that remind me of where I have come from. It is also what inspires me to work with difficult people when others simply shake the dust from their feet and move on from them. Why, because I know I required the same attention from God at one time. My sin and God's grace, albeit not very "spiritual" (apparently) is what strengthens me to pass on what I have been given.

You've been blinded by religious ideals and dogma carefully crafted to control the masses in pursuit of clergy's lust for power and worldly wealth.

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Moo Ha Ha if you only Knew!!

The truth is, God is all around us. Most just simply do not recognize that. One could find God in a Buddhist Temple, if he wanted to.

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Indeed, but one must also admit that finding God in a Mosque or a Buddhist Temple (As my mother did) is the exception and not the rule.

You choose to ignore that fact, instead erecting religious dogma and doctrines over reality, which is to experience God.

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Now you are simply grasping at straws.. I would say this stereotype is at best applicable to about 40% of Catholics.. May I ask why you believe it applies to me?

seekingagnostic32 said:

Same to you.

BTW, what branch of christianity did you subscribe to? You're a new one, aren't you? What sect or denomination did you go for?

Actually, we're probably very much alike. I read that you are pro-evolution and homosexuality. Now, I can't comment on those because I have no opinion either way, but I find it interesting that you have such anti-christian values here. If you went and posted in most of the other forums here, you'd be called everything from a heathen, to an atheist to unsaved and a heretic! I was accused of much the same and I never said a word about either issue! Gotta love that good, old christian "love" huh?

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I am non denominational, and I do believe I made the right choice

Before I was saved, yes I was pro homosexuality. However, as we must love others as we love ourselves, I still stand by my view that we shouldn't be nasty towards individuals who are homosexual. And most Christians aren't. A lot who would go up to a homosexual and harass them for it probably don't have a relationship with the Lord anyway.

Evolution? I haven't quite figured that one out yet, so I will not argue for or against it until I know.

I have posted one thing about homosexuality on this forum.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7602357-6/#post59564217

It potentially could upset people, I said "we need to be tactful about when we bring that fact up as not everybody believes in the bible, and we need to be careful how we treat non Christians". Nobody has even replied to my post anyway. So it seems that nobody has a serious issue with it.

Give me your old account name so that I can figure out what actually happened.

elman said:

I don't think faith has to be nonsence and I don't think it being nonsence means we are are on the right path {....} but I don't think it is wise to assume something is true just because we believe it to be true.

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It is nonsense. OK, maybe that's a loaded term. It is non-rational. Maybe that is a better term. If it made sense to "man's wisdom", there would be no need for faith, or grace.

1 Cor: For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

For example, I don't believe the resurrection on the "evidence" of some moldy 2000 year old hearsay. I believe it because I was called to believe it despite the fact that is a highly unlikely story. My human wisdom would reject that story just like it rejects the miraculous (i.e. non-rational) stories of other religions and the seasonal delusions of Cubs fans.

I don't know about you, but I have no choice in what I believe to be true. Just try believing that the stop sign is purple or being certain that the Cubs will win the World Series.

Grace through Faith, it is. I was given this faith, without even ever asking for it. There's no way I could believe these incredible tales if left to my human wisdom.

Also, it appears to me that God did make man imperfect. God does not make mistakes. It was obviously part of the plan.

Peace.

PS - I'm a minor closet Cubs fan myself. My team is an AL team. Everybody is allowed a minor fandom in the other league, right?

seekingagnostic32 said:

It's not so much belief, it's more when you've seen what I have, you accept it as true. Belief implies not knowing. I don't know exactly what they are, but malevolent is about right. Most christians don't even know anything about this sort of thing, which is quite strange if you ask me

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Here's one who does know a lot about "this sort of thing". I've had experiences very similar to those you describe - from mere presences to what I know was a demon standing on my back, pushing my head down, trying to suffocate me as I lay in bed. I couldn't breathe, and it was terrifying. I'm curious to know, how did you deal with those attacks?

seekingagnostic32 said:

Gotta love that good, old christian "love" huh?

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Now, I could start flinging Bible verses all over the place here but I don't think that's getting to the heart of the issue here. I will say this, though: much of the hurt and grief in this world has been caused by "religion". I'm not surprised that you're angry and bitter. Please know: I'm not here to call you a heretic, or a bad person, or any of that stuff. I'm just curious as to what made you so angry with God. For the record, I've been there myself.

Actually, if you'll allow me to ask you something, as someone who was a Christian previously. I'd like your opinion on this:

If all Christians who repent have been forgiven for all of their sins, and are then called to do likewise to others, what do you make of the ones that don't do this? Also, what do you make of the ones that do?

Lastly, and apologies if I'm stating the obvious here. I don't want to assume anything about what you may or may not have thought when you were a Christian. But one thing that keeps coming back to me (not only in this topic but with others) is "there are some things we're not meant to know this side of Heaven" (or this side of death, or whatever). In this case I'm thinking of the thread title. You're absolutely right to ask where evil came from if it wasn't God. The truth is, nobody can know. Sound like a cop-out? Probably, but it's about the only thing any of us have got.

If you'll allow me (again) I'd like to get some other opinions and perspectives from those I know - Christian and non-Christian - about this. A question like yours deserves a well-thought out and reasoned answer. I'm not saying I'll be able to get you anything definitive (I know I won't) but I would like to get a little wider perspective. Would you let me? Reason I ask is that I don't to rush off and do stuff and post things only for them to anger you further.

Take care,

Not to belabor the point, but in answer to the OP question "did God create evil?" and the related question of whether God made man (or at least some of us) imperfect:

Prov 16:4 The LORD has made all things for himself: yes, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Rom 9:21 Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honor, and another to dishonor?

I know that I am one of the imperfect ones, possibly made to dishonor. I hope not, as I strive to live by the word, but that's God's call.

drich0150 said:

So you are willing to believe this "2000 year old Myth Book" when it describes Satan, but have decided to ignore everything else, just to fill in the blanks yourself? If the "Goat Herders" got it wrong then what makes you think you got it right? Who gave you your revelation? God's Revelation has been written by the goat herders, so again who gave you yours?

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Just because something is right about certain things (like there being evil spirits) doesn't mean every word of what it says is correct (when it endorses genocide, slavery, taking virgins for your own personal slaves possibly for sex, and has many historical facts completely wrong). It's called using your brain and not throwing the baby out with the bath water. The Qur'an has some truth in it too, but I don't accept all of its claims. I'm not dogmatic, nor religious so that's not required for me. (Thank God!)

I'm not a goat herder and to even compare me with someone from 3000 years ago, when they had a high illiteracy rate, lack of media, internet and understanding of science is beyond silly. Give me one reason why I should blindly accept anyone's stories, especially when they contain false historical facts and questionable morality.

Not if you take and consider the literal definition of the Hebrew word. A Father had a specific role to play.

Does it involve abuse?

Being "Religious or Spiritual" rank so low on my list of behaviors I wish to emulate, I do not consider either of them when I am deciding how to live my life or even answer your questions. Rather I take passages like this one to tailor my responses:

Well that's too bad. Being spiritual is a high priority on my list. I guess we're too different.

My Sin, my continual sin is a weakness. It is a thorn in my flesh one that causes great spiritual infirmities, It is these thorns that keep me humble. It is these thorns, and comments from people who throw stones not giving a thought to their own sin that remind me of where I have come from. It is also what inspires me to work with difficult people when others simply shake the dust from their feet and move on from them. Why, because I know I required the same attention from God at one time. My sin and God's grace, albeit not very "spiritual" (apparently) is what strengthens me to pass on what I have been given.

You sound very religious.

Moo Ha Ha if you only Knew!!

Oh but I do.

Indeed, but one must also admit that finding God in a Mosque or a Buddhist Temple (As my mother did) is the exception and not the rule.

Who can say, aside from what your religious dogma tells you?

Now you are simply grasping at straws.. I would say this stereotype is at best applicable to about 40% of Catholics.. May I ask why you believe it applies to me?

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It applies to probably 80% or higher of most Christians in general, not just your Catholic brethen. I don't see how you are an exception. Everything you've said only seems to confirm my thoughts so far.

seekingagnostic32 said:

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Just because something is right about certain things (like there being evil spirits) doesn't mean every word of what it says is correct (when it endorses genocide, slavery, taking virgins for your own personal slaves possibly for sex, and has many historical facts completely wrong). It's called using your brain and not throwing the baby out with the bath water. The Qur'an has some truth in it too, but I don't accept all of its claims. I'm not dogmatic, nor religious so that's not required for me. (Thank God!)

I'm not a goat herder and to even compare me with someone from 3000 years ago, when they had a high illiteracy rate, lack of media, internet and understanding of science is beyond silly. Give me one reason why I should blindly accept anyone's stories, especially when they contain false historical facts and questionable morality.

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You did not answer the question. If God gave the illiterate goat herders they ability to write down His revelations. Who gave you yours?

Does it involve abuse

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?
your version of abuse?

You sound very religious.

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thank you

Who can say, aside from what your religious dogma tells you?

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Indeed, because if God reaches out (Something no other religion claims *check their dogmas) through Christianity then why look for Him in a place designed to center one's self?

It applies to probably 80% or higher of most Christians in general, not just your Catholic brethren. I don't see how you are an exception. Everything you've said only seems to confirm my thoughts so far.

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Fair enough

drich0150 said:

[/b]You did not answer the question. If God gave the illiterate goat herders they ability to write down His revelations. Who gave you yours?

I'm going to go with personal experiences and God. In the end, I'd wager God granted me the knowledge He has, so that's a fair ground to answer I suppose.

?
your version of abuse?

Yes, killing pregnant women, rape, slavery, genocide and cutting off women's hands for grabbing a guy's balls is cruelty and seems abusive.

thank you

Even as a christian, I would have objected to that as an insult.

Indeed, because if God reaches out (Something no other religion claims *check their dogmas) through Christianity then why look for Him in a place designed to center one's self?

So Judaism is a false religion then???

If so, what are we arguing over exactly?

Fair enough

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GodsDaughter1981 said:

Here's one who does know a lot about "this sort of thing". I've had experiences very similar to those you describe - from mere presences to what I know was a demon standing on my back, pushing my head down, trying to suffocate me as I lay in bed. I couldn't breathe, and it was terrifying. I'm curious to know, how did you deal with those attacks?

I've never had that, and I'm not looking for it either.


Now, I could start flinging Bible verses all over the place here but I don't think that's getting to the heart of the issue here. I will say this, though: much of the hurt and grief in this world has been caused by "religion". I'm not surprised that you're angry and bitter. Please know: I'm not here to call you a heretic, or a bad person, or any of that stuff. I'm just curious as to what made you so angry with God. For the record, I've been there myself.

Where did I say I'm mad at God? God's cool, but his followers need some work. And I reject organized religion too.

Actually, if you'll allow me to ask you something, as someone who was a Christian previously. I'd like your opinion on this:

If all Christians who repent have been forgiven for all of their sins, and are then called to do likewise to others, what do you make of the ones that don't do this? Also, what do you make of the ones that do?

It also says christians must LOVE as Jesus instructed, but they do not. So their fruit is false and their witness is a lie. God forgives on the basis of man forgiving others, as you know. Praying a prayer means nothing without works to back up one's so-called faith.

Lastly, and apologies if I'm stating the obvious here. I don't want to assume anything about what you may or may not have thought when you were a Christian. But one thing that keeps coming back to me (not only in this topic but with others) is "there are some things we're not meant to know this side of Heaven" (or this side of death, or whatever). In this case I'm thinking of the thread title. You're absolutely right to ask where evil came from if it wasn't God. The truth is, nobody can know. Sound like a cop-out? Probably, but it's about the only thing any of us have got.

I think we CAN know. The spirit of Truth is said to teach us "all things". Or do you not believe that?

If you'll allow me (again) I'd like to get some other opinions and perspectives from those I know - Christian and non-Christian - about this. A question like yours deserves a well-thought out and reasoned answer. I'm not saying I'll be able to get you anything definitive (I know I won't) but I would like to get a little wider perspective. Would you let me? Reason I ask is that I don't to rush off and do stuff and post things only for them to anger you further.

Take care,

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I'm not sure which I am, but ask away. I like answering questions, as long as they're sincere.

God bless.

I've never had that, and I'm not looking for it either.

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Ahh, I must have misunderstood you. I thought you meant you had had spritual attacks/manifestations like that. Sorry. For the record, I wasn't looking for it either...

Where did I say I'm mad at God? God's cool, but his followers need some work. And I reject organized religion too.

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Hmm, I agree that all of us need "some work". Not just followers of Christ, but everyone. Although I do get what you mean; Christ taught love and humility, and some folks who follow him do seem to forget that when they sit in judgment of others, which is unfortunate. I've met a few as well.

It also says christians must LOVE as Jesus instructed, but they do not. So their fruit is false and their witness is a lie. God forgives on the basis of man forgiving others, as you know. Praying a prayer means nothing without works to back up one's so-called faith.

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Can I disagree with you slightly here? "SOME" do not love as Jesus instructed. I am fortunate enough to know people who are full of God's love for others. If you have not met anyone like that yet, then I feel bad on behalf of the Christians who should have shown you that love but for whatever reason did not.

I think we CAN know. The spirit of Truth is said to teach us "all things". Or do you not believe that?

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Actually, no, I don't. Not everything is meant for us humans to know. Some of the secrets of life and the universe are, I think, only for God to know. If the spirit of Truth is said to teach us "all things", I would assume that meant "all things according to the will of God". If we were to know everything with documented fact, and I could just hand you a dossier of "why everything happens the way it does", then what would be the point of faith?

Take care, I'm not sure which I am, but ask away. I like answering questions, as long as they're sincere.

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Fun fact about me: I never ask insincere or sarcastic questions in discussion like this. What I meant was that I would get some perspective from other people (at my church, among my friends etc) and see what their views were on the whole "where did evil come from, and did God create it?" question. Because that, Sir, is one heck of a good question I'm actually really glad you've got me thinking about all this.

GodsDaughter1981 said:

Ahh, I must have misunderstood you. I thought you meant you had had spritual attacks/manifestations like that. Sorry. For the record, I wasn't looking for it either...

Few do look for that. I've had some experiences with these forces but can't say precisely what they are. That is why I have to reject elman's POV, that there are no evil spirits. There are and the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist.

Hmm, I agree that all of us need "some work". Not just followers of Christ, but everyone. Although I do get what you mean; Christ taught love and humility, and some folks who follow him do seem to forget that when they sit in judgment of others, which is unfortunate. I've met a few as well.

A bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

Can I disagree with you slightly here? "SOME" do not love as Jesus instructed. I am fortunate enough to know people who are full of God's love for others. If you have not met anyone like that yet, then I feel bad on behalf of the Christians who should have shown you that love but for whatever reason did not.

There are good people just as there are bad people. Didn't Jesus also say, "Out of the good treasure of his heart, a GOOD man brings forth good things...?" and likewise for evil. Goodness is independent of religion. I know plenty of rotten religious folks and plenty of good, secular people.

Some may say this is pride, but that is precisely what religion would say to beat men down. I consider myself to be a decent person for the most part.

Actually, no, I don't. Not everything is meant for us humans to know. Some of the secrets of life and the universe are, I think, only for God to know. If the spirit of Truth is said to teach us "all things", I would assume that meant "all things according to the will of God". If we were to know everything with documented fact, and I could just hand you a dossier of "why everything happens the way it does", then what would be the point of faith?

That's not what my bible says. It says "all things" and will lead you to "all truth". But believe however you wish.

Fun fact about me: I never ask insincere or sarcastic questions in discussion like this. What I meant was that I would get some perspective from other people (at my church, among my friends etc) and see what their views were on the whole "where did evil come from, and did God create it?" question. Because that, Sir, is one heck of a good question I'm actually really glad you've got me thinking about all this.

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I'm not so concerned with where evil came from, as I am in hearing christians explain why God apparently creates it, as per the bible's statements in the OT.

Myshkin99 said:

It is nonsense. OK, maybe that's a loaded term. It is non-rational. Maybe that is a better term. If it made sense to "man's wisdom", there would be no need for faith, or grace.

1 Cor: For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

For example, I don't believe the resurrection on the "evidence" of some moldy 2000 year old hearsay. I believe it because I was called to believe it despite the fact that is a highly unlikely story. My human wisdom would reject that story just like it rejects the miraculous (i.e. non-rational) stories of other religions and the seasonal delusions of Cubs fans.

I don't know about you, but I have no choice in what I believe to be true. Just try believing that the stop sign is purple or being certain that the Cubs will win the World Series.

Grace through Faith, it is. I was given this faith, without even ever asking for it. There's no way I could believe these incredible tales if left to my human wisdom.

Also, it appears to me that God did make man imperfect. God does not make mistakes. It was obviously part of the plan.

Peace.

PS - I'm a minor closet Cubs fan myself. My team is an AL team. Everybody is allowed a minor fandom in the other league, right?

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I agree God did not create man equal to and the same as God. However God making us capable of loving others does not make God responsible for us being unloving to others. I think it is more rational to assume we exist for a reason than to assume we do not exist for any reason, just and accident or random chemicals colliding over a long period of time. I think it is more reasonable to assume we have a destiny than to assume our destiny is to not exist and not be remembered. I think it is more reasonable to assum our Creator is good than to assume our Creator is evil. Therefore I do not agree that faith in a good Creator is nonsense.

seekingagnostic32 said:

Few do look for that. I've had some experiences with these forces but can't say precisely what they are. That is why I have to reject elman's POV, that there are no evil spirits. There are and the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist.

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I absolutely and totally agree with you here. There are indeed both good and evil spirits at work.

seekingagnostic32 said:

A bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

There are good people just as there are bad people. Didn't Jesus also say, "Out of the good treasure of his heart, a GOOD man brings forth good things...?" and likewise for evil. Goodness is independent of religion. I know plenty of rotten religious folks and plenty of good, secular people.

Some may say this is pride, but that is precisely what religion would say to beat men down. I consider myself to be a decent person for the most part.

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Yup, you make a good point about rotten religious people and good secular ones. However... "a bad tree produces bad fruit"? Well, yep...up to a point. Let's say Joe Schmoe has been a right cretin all his life. He's cheated, been abusive, lied, stolen...the works. Then by whatever means he's introduced to Jesus and transformed by the holy spirit. He goes on to never abuse, lie, steal, whatever from that day forth. He dedicates his life to helping others, so humbled is he by God's grace. Is that still a "bad tree giving bad fruit?" After all, he's still the same Joe Schmoe that he was before.

That's not what my bible says. It says "all things" and will lead you to "all truth". But believe however you wish.

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OK, I have a bit more reading to do, by the looks of it Can you point me to some Bible verses as a starting point?

I'm not so concerned with where evil came from, as I am in hearing christians explain why God apparently creates it, as per the bible's statements in the OT.

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Ah, in that case I'll stand up right now and freely admit that I have no explanation for this. Maybe someone else can explain it to us both

seekingagnostic32 said:

I've asked this before but no one has given me an answer yet

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Nonsense. Books upon books upon books have been written on the subject. I'm sure some of them are quite good. Some people here might even be able to help you narrow the field.

seekingagnostic32 said:

The bible outright says God creates evil, darkness

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Yup. Now fess up; did you find that on your own, or on Ihategod.com? And since you're going to tell us you found it on your own, why did you not pursue what it means (in this context) to "create?" (As distinct from to make and /or form)

seekingagnostic32 said:

and causes woe to befall people. So why or how do people come off as trying to say that God is "good?"

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You really think there's a contradiction?!? Why, and how is this possible? I'll read the thread through; I bet more than one person has handled this at least adequately.

seekingagnostic32 said:

If I want around killing people, or conning people out of their savings

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Does it hurt, having that attitude? I mean c'mon, please engage your brain here.

seekingagnostic32 said:

So why does God get a free pass to do evil yet still get to take credit for being "good"?

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Obviously you really don't get this concept, "God."

seekingagnostic32 said:

Help me to reconcile these two contradictory statements: God is good, yet God creates evil / bad / harm / whatever negative word you wish to say the Hebrew word "Ra" implies.

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Theodicy. Google it. Read a few threads that turn up right here on CF, even. See what authors on the subject come highly recommended.

It's really not such a tough situation; not even challenging, really.

seekingagnostic32 said:

In Christianity, I hate to say it because it sounds like a cheap shot, but... Ignorance is bliss, and knowledge is the enemy.

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This is enough to get infractions, and banned pretty quickly.