God creates evil.

[begt]

There is no Satan and it is not a lie that God is love. The untruth is that God is evil or created evil.

But if your god is omnipotent and created everything in the beginning he must be responsible for all evil things too. Then it must be part of some divine plan- a twisted immoral plan. This is one of the reasons that I dont think that the biblical god exists.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

There is no Satan and it is not a lie that God is love. The untruth is that God is evil or created evil.

I disagree, respectfully.

I have had too many run-ins with evil spirits to say they are not real.

I actually have more evidence there are evil spirits than there are good ones. I take the existence of God on faith. Demons (or whatever you wish to call them - I think 'maleficent spirits' fits the most) do exist. I wish they didn't, but I can assure you they are quite real. They hate humans and would do anything to destroy us.

Apparently, going by the bible, they work for "god". If that is so, I want nothing to do with this so-called god.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Jesus says love others and you say that someone claiming to follow Jesus failes to love others and therefore Christianity is disproven. What rubbish. Why is all Christianity to blame for people who do not obey the command to love?

Show me one person who bears good fruit in the name of Christianity (who was not a good person prior to doing so).

 

[elman]

But if your god is omnipotent and created everything in the beginning he must be responsible for all evil things too. Then it must be part of some divine plan- a twisted immoral plan. This is one of the reasons that I dont think that the biblical god exists.

I am not talking about the bibical god. I am talking about the Creator of the Universe. Evil came from man. God did not create evil. God created man capable of loving others. In order for man to have this capability, man must be capable of not loving others. When man fails to love others, evil is the result. Evil did not come from God.

 

[elman]

Show me one person who bears good fruit in the name of Christianity (who was not a good person prior to doing so).

I am in favour of all good people. What is your point? It is not about doing something in the name of Christianity. It is simply about loving others. The Good Samaritan was not claiming to do anything in the name of Christianity.

 

[elman]

I disagree, respectfully.

I have had too many run-ins with evil spirits to say they are not real.

I actually have more evidence there are evil spirits than there are good ones. I take the existence of God on faith. Demons (or whatever you wish to call them - I think 'maleficent spirits' fits the most) do exist. I wish they didn't, but I can assure you they are quite real. They hate humans and would do anything to destroy us.

Apparently, going by the bible, they work for "god". If that is so, I want nothing to do with this so-called god.

I have had no experience with evil Spirits. I don't believe in them. With your belief in evil spirits, what do you see as your purpose in existing? Why do you exist? What is your destiny after physical death? Do you have destiny?

 

[seekingagnostic32]

I have had no experience with evil Spirits. I don't believe in them. With your belief in evil spirits, what do you see as your purpose in existing? Why do you exist? What is your destiny after physical death? Do you have destiny?

It's not so much belief, it's more when you've seen what I have, you accept it as true. Belief implies not knowing. I don't know exactly what they are, but malevolent is about right. Most christians don't even know anything about this sort of thing, which is quite strange if you ask me.

Existing? Why not exist? Life is what you make of it. I'd like to think I am here to be happy and fulfill destiny, whatever it may be.

I don't plan on dying. I'm not 100% sure what occurs when someone dies. I have heard many stories of people meeting a "light" that is "love" and "goodness". Those NDEs are hard to argument with. I can't argue with people's own personal experience or testimonies.

One purpose may be to exist to enjoy creation, as God probably did not make creation for any other purpose but for us to enjoy and to point to his glory. Revelation says all things were made for his glory.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

I am in favour of all good people. What is your point? It is not about doing something in the name of Christianity. It is simply about loving others. The Good Samaritan was not claiming to do anything in the name of Christianity.

I don't know of too many, if any, christians doing any loving. Judgmental, hypocritical bigotry rarely qualifies as loving.

 

[anada]

Show me one person who bears good fruit in the name of Christianity (who was not a good person prior to doing so).

Saul/Paul.

 

[drich0150]

So if I go around ruining someone else's life, it's okay and not a sin?

Are you God?
then for you it would be a sin.

Ra means bad or evil, period.

Actually no. Blueletterbible.org has a more complete defination.
ra` evil, wickedness, wicked, mischief, hurt, bad, trouble, sore, affliction, ill, adversity, favoured, harm, naught, noisome, grievous, sad



As you can plainly see Ra, can mean anything from Evil to just being sad. Ra is not a word that directly translate to Evil it's meaning depends on the context of the passage.

The text clearly says God is the author of evil. End of story. Have fun dancing around the issue, like I used to.

Narrow minded people tend to think that the bible (New and Old testaments) were written in King James English, and that you can simply take the K/J English at face value. When in fact as I have demonstrated the word you are so sure only means evil can mean a whole host of things. It's funny how you have closed your mind to anything that does not emphasizes your point.

The Calvinists take it head on and admit it, "God created evil... for his glory." It's all absurd, but at least they take the bible seriously and literally!

Understand in no way am I saying God does not use the Evil of Man for the greater good. I am only pointing out that your understanding of the Hebrew word "Ra" as having a deeper meaning than what you have represented.

If God is truly the [insert whatever] behind tragedy, rape and evil, then I want nothing to do with him / it. Not my thing.

Just make a note of this comment incase you want to pass off your unbelief as the fault of someone else.

I guess the religious are right when they say god and Satan are on the same team, and Satan just simply works for YHWH. How great. That's not loving to me, so I cannot accept anything that lies about "God is love" or whatever nonsense.

Did you think God and Satan were mortal enemies? That they were polar opposites but completely equal? Hate to be the one to tell you, but they are not. Satan was completely defeated at the foot of the cross. The Evil in this world comes from the heart of man. Not Satan.

 

[Myshkin99]

Yes, God created evil. So what? He also created love, puppies, anthrax, box jellyfish, Alzheimer's disease, and everything else. That's God. God is the author of all. God is large and our brains are small.

Not every Christian you meet feels the need to twist scripture to make God into something that they like better than the truth.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Saul/Paul.

That's assuming he was a real person... and not a liar.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Yes, God created evil. So what? He also created love, puppies, anthrax, box jellyfish, Alzheimer's disease, and everything else. That's God. God is the author of all. God is large and our brains are small.

Not every Christian you meet feels the need to twist scripture to make God into something that they like better than the truth.

then why would anybody want to worship this then?

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Are you God?
then for you it would be a sin.

Oh, so different rules for god then? So god is a hypocrite then?

I wasn't taught this garbage. I was taught God is good and thus, does not break his own rules or laws.

Actually no. Blueletterbible.org has a more complete defination.
ra` evil, wickedness, wicked, mischief, hurt, bad, trouble, sore, affliction, ill, adversity, favoured, harm, naught, noisome, grievous, sad

Right, none of that in ANY WAY makes my point invalid.

It only proves what I said all along. Which one of those words is "good"? None. Case rested.

As you can plainly see Ra, can mean anything from Evil to just being sad. Ra is not a word that directly translate to Evil it's meaning depends on the context of the passage.

Either way, your god is the author of all of those evil, bad things. Your god ruins people's lives for fun. That's not cool.

He sounds like the petulant child described by Dawkins and Hitchens. I hate to say it, but that is how it is. He is a big bully who enjoys pushing people around because "he's bigger."

Narrow minded people tend to think that the bible (New and Old testaments) were written in King James English, and that you can simply take the K/J English at face value. When in fact as I have demonstrated the word you are so sure only means evil can mean a whole host of things. It's funny how you have closed your mind to anything that does not emphasizes your point.

Thankfully I'm not that stupid. The KJV bible is garbage, but it is still the best translation we have. With a concordance or two, you can go back to the original words and see. Ra means exactly as I said it does. Have fun trying to dance around that fact. You're doing exactly as I said you would.

You've proven nothing! All you've done is shown my original point is TRUE. Ra never means anything but bad things. Period. Bad and evil are the same.

Understand in no way am I saying God does not use the Evil of Man for the greater good. I am only pointing out that your understanding of the Hebrew word "Ra" as having a deeper meaning than what you have represented.

No it doesn't. I already knew everything you said and in no way have you shown god is good and not the author of all evil and suffering. Face it, your god is not good. In fact, I don't think any religion's patron deity is good. Maybe Ahura Mazda, I don't know...

Just make a note of this comment incase you want to pass off your unbelief as the fault of someone else.

Well no one controls what they believe anyhow. Unless you want to count throwing your mind and morality under the bus and committing moral and intellectual suicide in order to brainwash yourself into worshipping a malevolent deity. I have no interest in doing that.

If God is truly good, as I suspect, then He in no way would condemn me for choosing the high ground and would actually be proud of my choices and decisions.

Did you think God and Satan were mortal enemies? That they were polar opposites but completely equal? Hate to be the one to tell you, but they are not. Satan was completely defeated at the foot of the cross. The Evil in this world comes from the heart of man. Not Satan.

What does this have to do with anything? The fact is, the world is a toilet bowl and that proves that your devil is alive and well, unfortunately. Bound or not, he still has tremendous power and only the blind deny that fact.

But none of that matters since in your religion, you are taught your devil works under your god, and they are bosom buddies. See Job. That is some scary "theology" right there. That's like saying your dad is friends with a serial killer. Not exactly what you want to hear... worse yet, your dad authorizes and sends out this serial killer to do his dirty work. Not cool. You getting this yet...?

This is why the analogy of God as "father" doesn't work in christianity. Because if he's a father... he is not a good one. You have to play around with the bible a lot to try and rationalize him being a good one.

You don't see to understand much spiritually. I'm assuming you must be a religious fundamentalist, not one who believes in the spiritual realm much.

 

[Heidiii]

1) Correct. The term 'agnostic' simply means, "I don't know who or what God is." And let's be honest, neither do you. No one does. I have some ideas but cannot say for sure. Religion just throws all that out the window anyway.

2) It has nothing to do with what I like or not. It has to do with corrupt fruit. If I as a Christian am mistreated and abused by my so called brethen, then something is very wrong. When I am accused of being an atheist, a gnostic, a heretic, etc. all over garbage theological issues, something is wrong. I looked at the behavior of so called christians here and none of them practice what they preach! They are the very stereotype that the world typifies them as! So if all the followers of xtianity are false, then the religion itself must also be. That is quite logical. Nothing to do with God.

You missed my question. What was your username here when you were a Christian? I'm just curious, and I'm sure others would be too so we can better understand why this forum is what drove you away from Christanity.

Assuming everything you've said is true, logically it seems that you did have another account here, that perhaps you abandoned due to no longer being Christian. (Which is reasonable, but I want to know what it was so I can see what actually happened).

You claim that you were a true Christian once and then were driven away from it by this forum. However, your username now implies you are a "seeking agnostic", and no true Christian would use a username like that as it is simply untrue to what they believe. So you must have been on this forum as a true Christian at some stage to have been driven away from it by this forum, but it couldn't have been on your current account because the name contradicts. So what was your previous identity?

Thanks, but I don't consider myself "lost". You'd be best praying for yourself, my friend.

You gave up on the Lord because of humans. The Lord is far more significant than any of us here. And you considered being a Christian (again?) for reasons such as
http://www.christianforums.com/t7621084/#post59451694

I dunno, if you weren't lost I don't think you'd be making all these threads that criticize Christianity. Or you could just straight out be a troll. But I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt as I have no way of knowing if you're a troll unless you say you are one, so it's easiest to just assume you aren't.

Maybe lost is the wrong word. But you definitely are searching for something, and it seems important to you that you find it. So that's worthy of my prayers, that you do find whatever it is you are looking for.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

You gave up on the Lord because of humans. The Lord is far more significant than any of us here. And you considered being a Christian (again?) for reasons such as
http://www.christianforums.com/t7621084/#post59451694

I dunno, if you weren't lost I don't think you'd be making all these threads that criticize Christianity. Or you could just straight out be a troll. But I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt as I have no way of knowing if you're a troll unless you say you are one, so it's easiest to just assume you aren't.

Maybe lost is the wrong word. But you definitely are searching for something, and it seems important to you that you find it. So that's worthy of my prayers, that you do find whatever it is you are looking for.

All who seek find.

If you think there is absolute truth in man's religion, good luck with that.

I've tried it and it didn't work for me.

Depends on what you mean by "christian". Define the term and I can tell you if that is something I would want any part of or not. Ask five people and you'll get five different answers as to what one is. I've never been one to like being boxed in and married to a religious identity though.

 

[anada]

That's assuming he was a real person... and not a liar.

Indeed he was a real person, and no I don't believe him to be a liar.

To answer your question again though...


Originally Posted by seekingagnostic32
Show me one person who bears good fruit in the name of Christianity (who was not a good person prior to doing so).

I think you'd found thousands of personal testimonials on this site alone of all followers whose lives changed when they accepted Christ. Perhaps some to a greater degree than others. As it says in the Bible, true faith will result in a changed lifestyle- Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

 

[Heidiii]

Thanks for again avoiding my question.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Thanks for again avoiding my question.

Same to you.

BTW, what branch of christianity did you subscribe to? You're a new one, aren't you? What sect or denomination did you go for?

Actually, we're probably very much alike. I read that you are pro-evolution and homosexuality. Now, I can't comment on those because I have no opinion either way, but I find it interesting that you have such anti-christian values here. If you went and posted in most of the other forums here, you'd be called everything from a heathen, to an atheist to unsaved and a heretic! I was accused of much the same and I never said a word about either issue! Gotta love that good, old christian "love" huh?

 

[drich0150]

What does this have to do with anything? The fact is, the world is a toilet bowl and that proves that your devil is alive and well, unfortunately. Bound or not, he still has tremendous power and only the blind deny that fact.

What "this" says is that the world is populated by evil men who blame the devil for the conditions of their own hearts. Men choose to maliciously pursue and commit sin of their own accord. The "devil made me do it" is not going to be an accepted defense at your or anyone's judgment.

But none of that matters since in your religion, you are taught your devil works under your god, and they are bosom buddies. See Job. That is some scary "theology" right there. That's like saying your dad is friends with a serial killer. Not exactly what you want to hear... worse yet, your dad authorizes and sends out this serial killer to do his dirty work. Not cool. You getting this yet...?

That Satan still yields to the Authority of God? I thought I communicated that in my last post.

This is why the analogy of God as "father" doesn't work in Christianity. Because if he's a father... he is not a good one. You have to play around with the bible a lot to try and rationalize him being a good one.

Or simply Ignore whole sections to say He is not.

You don't see to understand much spiritually. I'm assuming you must be a religious fundamentalist, not one who believes in the spiritual realm much.

Ah, no. I have witnessed too much personally to dismiss "Much Spiritually." Perhaps I am at a point where I do not need someone to provide me with a way of deflecting my own sin and evil onto another being. When I commit evil acts I own them. Because of this I know I need to seek forgiveness. Then I take my sin to God, where it is forgiven. That is how sin and repentance works.

However if I went though life telling myself that I am basically a "good" person and what ever sin or evil I commit is not of me but of the devil's influence then I will never know the conviction required to truly repent. If I were left unchecked long enough I would even turn on God for not protecting me from Satan.

Which in of itself is the only legacy Satan left after His defeat at the cross... Deception and Temptation. To which those who do not accept their own sins are subject to. Being made "spiritually aware" has blinded you to the only real dangers Satan has left. You have been lulled to sleep by made to stand watch for all the evil in Satan's arsenal.