God creates evil.

[seekingagnostic32]

I've asked this before but no one has given me an answer yet, so I'm hoping I can get some sense out of this, if that is possible even. The bible outright says God creates evil, darkness and causes woe to befall people. So why or how do people come off as trying to say that God is "good?"

If I want around killing people, or conning people out of their savings, I would be a murderer or a con artist. Neither of those are good by definition and both are bad or "evil". Therefore, I cannot do one thing and be another. "A bad tree cannot produce good fruit." So why does God get a free pass to do evil yet still get to take credit for being "good"?

Logically, this makes no sense to me and I cannot wrap my head around it. How is this possible?

If Christians stopped trying to say God was good, I would rest my case, but they don't.

Help me to reconcile these two contradictory statements: God is good, yet God creates evil / bad / harm / whatever negative word you wish to say the Hebrew word "Ra" implies.

 

[anada]

God didn't create evil. Evil is the absence of God

 

[Emmy]

Dear seekingagnostic32. If you knew God, you would also know that you completely misinterpreted the bits about darkness and evil. In Isaiah, chapter 45, verses 6-7 , God said: " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. I am the Lord, and there is none else." Imagine all darkness, and God brought some light into it, of course there would not be All Light, there would also be some darkness left. And when God created the light, He also created the darkness which was left, where the light did not reach. The same with the other things you mentioned. How can LOVE create EVIL??? I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ. P.S. Wherever God is, there is also Love and Light, and where there is darkness and evil, God`s Love and Light cannot be experienced.

 

[drich0150]

I've asked this before but no one has given me an answer yet, so I'm hoping I can get some sense out of this, if that is possible even. The bible outright says God creates evil, darkness and causes woe to befall people.

Where does te bible say this? Book Chapter and verse please.

So why or how do people come off as trying to say that God is "good?"

If you are correct in saying "God created evil," and you are able to use the bible as an authority to back this up. Then why can't you use the same bible to understand that God is Good?
But remember first you must show where the bible says God is evil

If I want around killing people, or conning people out of their savings, I would be a murderer or a con artist. Neither of those are good by definition and both are bad or "evil".

Who's definition?

Therefore, I cannot do one thing and be another. "A bad tree cannot produce good fruit." So why does God get a free pass to do evil yet still get to take credit for being "good"?

Who among us can Judge God, Evil?

The bible records as sin being anything not in the expressed will of God.
Evil is being a malicious intent to commit sin. It also shows not all sin is evil but all evil is still Sin.


So According to scripture, God can not sin because whatever He does is well with in His own expressed will. Therefore God can not be Evil.

Logically, this makes no sense to me and I cannot wrap my head around it. How is this possible?

Because you have taken the acts you have described as "evil" and used them as we would use the expressed will of God as a empirical standard. You believe that the acts in of themselves have an intrinsic moral value. When infact they do not. For instance you have listed killing as ALWAYS being evil. God tells us that our motives for killing is what makes it evil. That is the difference between Killing and Murder. (the unsanctioned taking of Human life.) In war a solider kills to defend his country. In everyday society police officers take life to defend the general public. These are not evil acts by any standard.
-also-
What if the savings you took was not earned by the one you took them from? What if that person was a Burny Madeoff of some sort? What if you took and gave back to those he stole from? To you think the 100's of millions the government seized from this man's savings was an evil act?

In both instances I have shown that your version of "evil" is not always evil. If this is the case then there must be a standard in which to judge circumstances that make these acts honorable or evil. So I ask Again, Who among us is in a position to Judge God?

If Christians stopped trying to say God was good, I would rest my case, but they don't.

I think you think too much of yourself and "your case." Your's is a tired argument that simply shows the stage of separation you have developed in your 'faith.' If not you eventually it would be someone else who is on your current path. This argument or one like it has followed believers since the time of Christ.

Help me to reconcile these two contradictory statements: God is good, yet God creates evil / bad / harm / whatever negative word you wish to say the Hebrew word "Ra" implies.

They are only contradictory because you have taken it upon yourself to judge God by the popular standard in which you have adopted for yourself. This standard was intended to allow the self important to find fault in a perfect God so one such as yourself would feel a need or even obligation to separate from God. Know this. You do not need this "righteous indignation" to separate yourself from God. Just live your life and continue to serve yourself and you will eventually find the separation you seek.

 

[Publius]

Where does te bible say this? Book Chapter and verse please.

I think he's referring to these:

Isaiah 45:7. "I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the Lord, who does all these things."

Amos 3:6 "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?"

 

[ViaCrucis]

What was fundamental to the theology of Israel was its central tenet concerning the absolute oneness of God. Since YHVH, alone, is the one power all must be attributed to Him an no other. Thus there was no god of creation and then a god of destruction, there was only YHVH; and from Him came all that sustains the cosmos and also from Him comes all that destroys. The rain that brings life and the rain that brings flood, the winds that support birds or the wind that breaks houses, the sun that lights the day and the sun that scorches the earth, these are all from YHVH.

The prophet Isaiah, for example, is not interested in offering any moral quality in his statements. Isaiah 45 is a statement about the alone-ness of YHVH, the absoluteness of Israel's God.

It would therefore be improper to read into the text beyond what is actually being said.

When, as a Christian, I say that God is good, in fact I say God is omnibenevolent, that is a statement concerning God's moral disposition both as an ontological reality in the Divine Nature and as it pertains to how God relates with His creation. It's not the same sort of statement concerning God's absolute place as the one true and absolute Power, wherein YHVH is alone who creates and sustains, as well as destroys and reduces.

Understanding what someone like Isaiah is saying, where and when he said it, and why he said it is important if it's going to be meaningful at all to even discuss it.

Isaiah was speaking within the context of an emergent monotheism in a bronze age, ancient near east polytheistic world.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Where does te bible say this? Book Chapter and verse please.

Isaiah 45:7. "I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the Lord, who does all these things."

Amos 3:6 "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?"

It's also in Lamentations and several other places. Have you ever read the old testament?

If you are correct in saying "God created evil," and you are able to use the bible as an authority to back this up. Then why can't you use the same bible to understand that God is Good?
But remember first you must show where the bible says God is evil

Already done.

Who's definition?

Humanity's.

Who among us can Judge God, Evil?

Anyone with a conscience and a sense of justice. Don't insult me just because you lack a moral compass.

The bible records as sin being anything not in the expressed will of God.
Evil is being a malicious intent to commit sin. It also shows not all sin is evil but all evil is still Sin.


So According to scripture, God can not sin because whatever He does is well with in His own expressed will. Therefore God can not be Evil.

That is not even what your holy book says. See above.

Because you have taken the acts you have described as "evil" and used them as we would use the expressed will of God as a empirical standard. You believe that the acts in of themselves have an intrinsic moral value. When infact they do not. For instance you have listed killing as ALWAYS being evil. God tells us that our motives for killing is what makes it evil. That is the difference between Killing and Murder. (the unsanctioned taking of Human life.) In war a solider kills to defend his country. In everyday society police officers take life to defend the general public. These are not evil acts by any standard.

I disagree. And so does the one you call your Lord. He said, "He who lives by the sword shall also die by the sword." I am a pacifist and in a perfect world, no cops or armies would ever be needed.

I know full well that Christian values like those are unrealistic and not long for this world. After all, that was why they killed Jesus. His values of love, forgiveness, turning the other cheek and mercy were not long for this violent, cruel world.

It's too bad His own followers wish not to even follow in his example or words.

-also-
What if the savings you took was not earned by the one you took them from? What if that person was a Burny Madeoff of some sort? What if you took and gave back to those he stole from? To you think the 100's of millions the government seized from this man's savings was an evil act?

In both instances I have shown that your version of "evil" is not always evil. If this is the case then there must be a standard in which to judge circumstances that make these acts honorable or evil. So I ask Again, Who among us is in a position to Judge God?

Your hebrew bible itself lends out the idea that God is the author of evil. So does the religious system known as Calvinism. But that's another subject altogether. Regardless, your entire religion - should you say you are a bible fundamentalist, inerrantist or literalist, is based on the idea of God as a very human character, with anger, jealousy, wrath, cruelty, injustice and yes, at times, evil. You have the verses above to prove my point. You need to read your bible more.


I think you think too much of yourself and "your case." Your's is a tired argument that simply shows the stage of separation you have developed in your 'faith.' If not you eventually it would be someone else who is on your current path. This argument or one like it has followed believers since the time of Christ.


They are only contradictory because you have taken it upon yourself to judge God by the popular standard in which you have adopted for yourself. This standard was intended to allow the self important to find fault in a perfect God so one such as yourself would feel a need or even obligation to separate from God. Know this. You do not need this "righteous indignation" to separate yourself from God. Just live your life and continue to serve yourself and you will eventually find the separation you seek.

Completely serious question: Why do christians get off on judging and condemning their fellow man? That seems like a very sick fetish, if you ask me. This is just one more reason why I dislike this religion - its followers talk of love and offer hate, judgment and condemnation in its stead.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

What was fundamental to the theology of Israel was its central tenet concerning the absolute oneness of God. Since YHVH, alone, is the one power all must be attributed to Him an no other. Thus there was no god of creation and then a god of destruction, there was only YHVH; and from Him came all that sustains the cosmos and also from Him comes all that destroys. The rain that brings life and the rain that brings flood, the winds that support birds or the wind that breaks houses, the sun that lights the day and the sun that scorches the earth, these are all from YHVH.

The prophet Isaiah, for example, is not interested in offering any moral quality in his statements. Isaiah 45 is a statement about the alone-ness of YHVH, the absoluteness of Israel's God.

It would therefore be improper to read into the text beyond what is actually being said.

When, as a Christian, I say that God is good, in fact I say God is omnibenevolent, that is a statement concerning God's moral disposition both as an ontological reality in the Divine Nature and as it pertains to how God relates with His creation. It's not the same sort of statement concerning God's absolute place as the one true and absolute Power, wherein YHVH is alone who creates and sustains, as well as destroys and reduces.

Understanding what someone like Isaiah is saying, where and when he said it, and why he said it is important if it's going to be meaningful at all to even discuss it.

Isaiah was speaking within the context of an emergent monotheism in a bronze age, ancient near east polytheistic world.

-CryptoLutheran

Oh it makes perfect sense. I am well aware of what the author of Second Isaiah was saying. He was speaking to his anointed, Cyrus - his messiah, if you will, who he would use from the Persians, I believe.

But most Christians read the bible in a much more literal, fundamentalist view. I know because I'm from that background myself. Of course, these passages were just glossed over and I doubt most Christians I knew ever even read them. Even I tried dancing around them, but now I no longer care about the niceties of religion and just want the truth.

If I treat the bible as nothing but a semi-historic, religious text and not "the absolute word of God" then this passage is easy to work with. They all are.

But that is not how most Christians read this, nor how they expect me to. And it is for these reasons, among others, that I cannot be a Christian. I know too much of how the bible was compiled to be a Christian anymore.

In Christianity, I hate to say it because it sounds like a cheap shot, but... Ignorance is bliss, and knowledge is the enemy.

 

[drich0150]

I think he's referring to these:

Isaiah 45:7. "I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the Lord, who does all these things."

Amos 3:6 "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?"

Perhaps then someone can also explain how Evil and Calamity are also the same thing.

My understanding of Calamity is series of tragic events, of which there are not any specific 'moral' implications. Evil on the other hand deals directly with morality and righteousness.

 

[drich0150]

Completely serious question: Why do christians get off on judging and condemning their fellow man?

Do you know the difference between an Judgment and an observation? A Judgment has authority to hold the accused to the judgment levied. An observation (in this case) speaks of the impending judgment one will have levied upon themselves if they maintained their current course.

You have taken the time to bring us of the first fruits of your system of belief in a section of a Christian web site designed to "help" those who seek clarity from a Christian perspective. This Means you have come to us in a forum specifically designed for us to Judge/observe your comments and philosophies in order correct them by the Christian Standard. Now isn't it hypocritical for you to Levy a judgment/observation against us when you yourself do not have the right or authority to do so here? After all this is not Exploring Agnosticism.

Is blatant hypocrisy no longer apart of the popular moral code? Or have you abandoned your professed moral code for simple self righteousness now?

That seems like a very sick fetish, if you ask me. This is just one more reason why I dislike this religion - its followers talk of love and offer hate, judgment and condemnation in its stead.

The typical last effort of a doomed argument. Baseless name calling and/or an appeal to stereotypes. If my observation is in error then why not address my mistakes? If I spoke out of turn why not cut and paste your comments that prove me wrong? Why did you take the easy way out here?

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Perhaps then someone can also explain how Evil and Calamity are also the same thing.

My understanding of Calamity is series of tragic events, of which there are not any specific 'moral' implications. Evil on the other hand deals directly with morality and righteousness.

So if I go around ruining someone else's life, it's okay and not a sin?

What nonsense!

Ra means bad or evil, period. The text clearly says God is the author of evil. End of story. Have fun dancing around the issue, like I used to.

The Calvinists take it head on and admit it, "God created evil... for his glory." It's all absurd, but at least they take the bible seriously and literally!

As for me, I could never take this passage in Second Isaiah seriously. It's too crazy, too nonsensical.

If God is truly the [insert whatever] behind tragedy, rape and evil, then I want nothing to do with him / it. Not my thing.

I guess the religious are right when they say god and satan are on the same team, and satan just simply works for YHWH. How great. That's not loving to me, so I cannot accept anything that lies about "God is love" or whatever nonsense.

 

[Heidiii]

I honestly never had any doubts in my faith until I came to this message board. That is the truth.

3 thoughts come to mind here..

1) Your username implies you are an agnostic that is seeking, so this account must have been created after you drifted. What was your old username here back when you were a Christian?

2) Why would one go against the Lord because of what *people on this forum* did? "I didn't like what people on the internetz said so I will go against my Lord and Saviour!". Go logic. [Whether or not I agree with your opinion of the people of this forum is irrelevant to this point]

3) What are you at this forum to seek? Are you trying to restrengthen your relationship with the Lord?

Like I do for all lost people, I will be praying for you.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

3 thoughts come to mind here..

1) Your username implies you are an agnostic that is seeking, so this account must have been created after you drifted. What was your old username here back when you were a Christian?

2) Why would one go against the Lord because of what *people on this forum* did? "I didn't like what people on the internetz said so I will go against my Lord and Saviour!". Go logic. [Whether or not I agree with your opinion of the people of this forum is irrelevant to this point]

3) What are you at this forum to seek? Are you trying to restrengthen your relationship with the Lord?

Like I do for all lost people, I will be praying for you.

1) Correct. The term 'agnostic' simply means, "I don't know who or what God is." And let's be honest, neither do you. No one does. I have some ideas but cannot say for sure. Religion just throws all that out the window anyway.

2) It has nothing to do with what I like or not. It has to do with corrupt fruit. If I as a Christian am mistreated and abused by my so called brethen, then something is very wrong. When I am accused of being an atheist, a gnostic, a heretic, etc. all over garbage theological issues, something is wrong. I looked at the behavior of so called christians here and none of them practice what they preach! They are the very stereotype that the world typifies them as! So if all the followers of xtianity are false, then the religion itself must also be. That is quite logical. Nothing to do with God.

god as the christian describes him, sounds petty, illogical, jealous, angry and P.O.ed at the world for no apparent reason. My experiences had proven almost without a doubt that the True God cannot be like that, not the Creator anyway. So christians act very much like their god. The problem is that this is not a good thing. I also believe there are dark forces that want to destroy humanity. But this line is sadly blurred by religion and its followers, only furthering my belief that religion is evil.

3) I want the truth, nothing more. Frankly, the odds of me finding it here are nil but it's worth a shot.

Thanks, but I don't consider myself "lost". You'd be best praying for yourself, my friend.

If the God I was taught is real, and I suspect that this is so, I will not be condemned simply because I disagree with religion, its followers and I question the atrocities done in its name.

 

[elman]

I've asked this before but no one has given me an answer yet, so I'm hoping I can get some sense out of this, if that is possible even. The bible outright says God creates evil, darkness and causes woe to befall people. So why or how do people come off as trying to say that God is "good?"

If I want around killing people, or conning people out of their savings, I would be a murderer or a con artist. Neither of those are good by definition and both are bad or "evil". Therefore, I cannot do one thing and be another. "A bad tree cannot produce good fruit." So why does God get a free pass to do evil yet still get to take credit for being "good"?

Logically, this makes no sense to me and I cannot wrap my head around it. How is this possible?

If Christians stopped trying to say God was good, I would rest my case, but they don't.

Help me to reconcile these two contradictory statements: God is good, yet God creates evil / bad / harm / whatever negative word you wish to say the Hebrew word "Ra" implies.

Some things are not reconcilable. The Bible says God is Good. If that is true, then God does not kill people and did not create evil. Actually the word in the bible is calamity not evil that God creates, but I don't believe God creates calamity either. God is good all the time. I believe the Bible when it says God is good. I don't believe it when it indicates God killls people and is evil.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Some things are not reconcilable. The Bible says God is Good. If that is true, then God does not kill people and did not create evil. Actually the word in the bible is calamity not evil that God creates, but I don't believe God creates calamity either. God is good all the time. I believe the Bible when it says God is good. I don't believe it when it indicates God killls people and is evil.

I believe the same, but that is not what the bible (hebrew one anyway) says.

My experience is that what you have said is true. But most christians fight me tooth and claw over this.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

I was doing my daily bible reading and came across the story of Saul the king. It says that Saul was tormented by an evil spirit from the Lord. Another proof that God is evil and sends it. It outright says "the evil spirit FROM the Lord" or the "evil spirit God sent" disappeared when David played his harp. Thus, God sends evil spirits and demons to torment them.

 

[elman]

So if I go around ruining someone else's life, it's okay and not a sin?

What nonsense!

Ra means bad or evil, period. The text clearly says God is the author of evil. End of story. Have fun dancing around the issue, like I used to.

The Calvinists take it head on and admit it, "God created evil... for his glory." It's all absurd, but at least they take the bible seriously and literally!

As for me, I could never take this passage in Second Isaiah seriously. It's too crazy, too nonsensical.

If God is truly the [insert whatever] behind tragedy, rape and evil, then I want nothing to do with him / it. Not my thing.

I guess the religious are right when they say god and satan are on the same team, and satan just simply works for YHWH. How great. That's not loving to me, so I cannot accept anything that lies about "God is love" or whatever nonsense.

There is no Satan and it is not a lie that God is love. The untruth is that God is evil or created evil.

 

[elman]

I was doing my daily bible reading and came across the story of Saul the king. It says that Saul was tormented by an evil spirit from the Lord. Another proof that God is evil and sends it. It outright says "the evil spirit FROM the Lord" or the "evil spirit God sent" disappeared when David played his harp. Thus, God sends evil spirits and demons to torment them.

That is what it says, but it is not true. God does not send evil spirits to lie for Him. Actually I don't believe there is such a thing as an evil spirit. I think the spiritual realm is life and goodness and evil is limited to this realm. It seems to me your assuming one must believe in the inerrancy of the Bible to believe in God. I don't think that is required to have faith in a loving Creator.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

That is what it says, but it is not true. God does not send evil spirits to lie for Him. Actually I don't believe there is such a thing as an evil spirit. I think the spiritual realm is life and goodness and evil is limited to this realm. It seems to me your assuming one must believe in the inerrancy of the Bible to believe in God. I don't think that is required to have faith in a loving Creator.

I was outright told on this forum by several christians that I must accept the ENTIRE bible as inerrant, infallible, perfect and literal word of God in order to be a Christian. I stopped even wanting to identify myself as one after that.

 

[elman]

I don't even know what the hell you're talking about.

You have already judged and condemned me.

Why the hell would anybody want to be a christian when they are like you?

I honestly never had any doubts in my faith until I came to this message board. That is the truth.

From talking to all the 'great' christians here, I began to doubt my faith so much as based off of what I read and the way the awesome 'christians' treated me, that I came to realize... this faith cannot be true.

After all... your Lord (so you think) said this:

"A bad tree cannot produce good fruit."

Thus, christianity is entirely disproven by the people that are its followers.

End of story.

Have fun justifying genocide, child slaughter, slavery and other bullcrap in the Name of your dying religion. Amen.

Jesus says love others and you say that someone claiming to follow Jesus failes to love others and therefore Christianity is disproven. What rubbish. Why is all Christianity to blame for people who do not obey the command to love?