God created evil?

[Sword-In-Hand]

I know this might get moved to the Hermeneutics forum, but through my study of Satan's fall, I was shown a verse that kind of surprised me, as it stood out as something most people wouldn't think God would do, but what is your take on Isaiah 45:7?

KJV: 7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amplified: 7I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] [a]evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

The KJV and the Amplified are the only versions that I can find that say evil, while the other common translations say calamity or disaster.

Anyway, at first glance or after first reading that verse does it surprise anyone to know that God created evil? Please understand that I am not saying that any part of God is evil, because He isn't. God is love, pure, holy and no darkness in Him.

Do you think God, in His infinite knowledge that we will never understand, created evil in order for us to be able to find love for Him? Would we know love if not for the evil? We wouldn't know sin without the law, so God, who I believe did not create robots, create evil so He would know who loved Him?

I really have not taken any stance on this verse, but would like some input. I hope this doesn't cause controversy.

 

[unimportantbuthisnameis]

The original text actually means calamity or disaster and in 17th century English evil meant disaster as well. No, I don't believe God created evil, however He gave man the choice to obey or disobey Him.

 

[Carrye]

Do Baptists hold (like Augustine did) that evil is a privation? ... ie, a lacking of good?

 

[ZiSunka]

Evil is not only a lack of good, but it can be a deliberate action of cruelty and harm, too.

But I agree with SIH that this means disaster or calamity, not an entity that exists to do evil actions.

 

[Matthan]

First of all, God created EVERYTHING! There is nothing existing today that God did not create or cause to be created.

Furthermore, everything serves God's purposes. He has an ultimate plan for the heavens and the earth. We are not privy to that plan, but we can be assured it does exist, and it is being executed to the Glory of God.

So, did God create evil? Another similar (and equally important) question is, did God create angels? We would all probably say "of course, He created angels!" So, that means He created Satan, right? Yes, He created Satan and all of the other angles that joined him in the heavenly revolution. Did He know those angels would "revolt?" Yes, He knew they would act as they did long before they revolted, and probably before they were even created. Why? To serve His holy purposes, that's why.

And that is why God created evil. It, like everything else on earth, serves God's holy purposes.

Does God use evil in Scripture to serve His holy purposes? Yes, many times. Just read about the "evil spirit" He sent to worry Saul. Or, read about the "lying spirit" He sent to give Ahab bad advice.

One thing we mere mortals almost always fail to realize is that God works on another plane that is so impossibly above where we are that we cannot even begin to fathom His wisdom, much less His omnipotence. All we can do is take comfort that, because we believe that Jesus is His Christ, we are now a part of Him.

Matthan <J><

 

[Matthan]

Disaster? Calamity? Is anyone saying that God did not create EVERYTHING? Therefore, did He create disasters (Jerico, first-born death in Egypt, enslavement and captivity of the Jews [twice!!], Sodom, Flood, and on and on and on...) They were all disasters to someone. Yes, He creates disasters. And, they all served God's holy purposes in one way or another, too.

Matthan <J><

 

[Carrye]

But is evil a "something", Matthan? (That was my question above).

 

[BT]

Wow this is freaky. I just answered an email on this last week.. lemme dig it up

 

[BT]

Found it.

Ah you've come across a really tough doctrine to understand.

The word in this case, in Hebrew is "rah" and has a huge number of meanings:

from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure), distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.).

It appears 623 times in the OT and some of the translations are difficult and naturally subjective to the placement of the word in the sentence and the context of the verse.. which is true of every word I suppose.

The important thing to understand in this verse (and doctrine) is that God is not speaking of "evil" as we would commonly think about it. He is talking about "evil" as the opposite of "peace". Since God is in control of all things (we're talking about the nation of Israel in this case) we understand that He alone allows things to happen. The contrast of this verse is easily seen (because of the word "peace" in the first part of the verse). He is not talking about "sin". He does not make us sin or make sin. Sin is the result of our nature and choices relative to His will and standards. One commentator states it like this about this verse:

Since God is the author of all things, he governs and sets limits to all. The good and bad actions of men and angels are so under his control that he accomplishes through them his own wise counsels, while they are left altogether free and responsible to him for their conduct.

That's a pretty good explanation of the verse. Now consider some more understanding of this doctrine. A good example is in Amos

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Scofield gives a good explanation of this word/use:

Heb. "ra" translated "sorrow," "wretchedness," "adversity," "afflictions," "calamities," but never translated sin. God created evil only in the sense that He made sorrow, wretchedness, etc., to be the sure fruits of sin.

This is what the verses are really talking about. If we think about Job, we remember that the Lord allowed Satan to do "evil" upon Job and his house. In this regard we could say that The Lord did the evil (in that He allowed it, through His permission He allowed it to be done is a better way to say it).

God uses what He will for His purposes. The prophet Habakukk had a similar problem. He saw the nation (Israel) in a state of wickedness, so he went to the Lord and said, "What are you going to do about these people?" (paraphrasing).. The Lord answered him and said, "I'm going to send in the Chaldeans to wipe you folks out and capture the city and destroy your buildings, take you prisoner etc." So Habakukk (rightly) freaks out.. he says, "I know that we're bad.. but those Chaldeans are even worse. How can you justify that? Yet, You are just, and the just [humans] will live by their faith" So God answers him and explains that even these wicked people can be used as the instruments of God's judgement, or to send messages etc. In this way God would refer to the "evil" (coming upon the nations) as His creation (or device). Job asked a similar question and the difference is that God didn't give Job his answer, but He did answer Habakukk. If you get a chance you should read the book of Habakukk, it's a short one but you can learn a lot from it.. some of the language is a bit difficult and there are some references that don't make a lot of sense unless you understand some of the customs of the Babylonians (aka Chaldeans).. but even so anyone can get the jist of it.

It's a tough subject to get your head around to be sure. Let me know if I've only confused things more and I'll try to clarify it for you.

So I think it is translated properly in the KJV. Though I admit it makes cause for study..

TTYL,

Brent

 

[2Timothy2]

1 Corinthians 14:33

Can someone speak to this verse? Is the word 'author' a supplied word? Is it proper to have it in the text? If it really shouldn't be there then this verse doesn't apply to this discussion. But if it does, then we would have Scripture saying there is something God did not create. Or am I missing something?

 

[BT]

1 Corinthians 14:33

Can someone speak to this verse? Is the word 'author' a supplied word? Is it proper to have it in the text? If it really shouldn't be there then this verse doesn't apply to this discussion. But if it does, then we would have Scripture saying there is something God did not create. Or am I missing something?

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 14:33 gar qeoV esti ou akatastasia alla eirhuh wV eu paV ekklhsia agioV.

1 Corinthians 14:33 lit. For God he is no confusion but peace as in all churches (assemblies) [of the] holy.

So, "author" is a supplied word, and in your KJV will probably be in italics. It doesn't really apply to this context, as it is speaking of disorder in the church... as we know the folks down in Corinth had made quite a mess of the situation, and Paul is here explaining that what they were doing (the mass disorder) was not "of" God.

 

[2Timothy2]

Thanks BT. It is in italics, I just didn't know if the Greek implied it or not. It's always better to make sure.

 

[Crazy Liz]

1 Corinthians 14:33

Can someone speak to this verse? Is the word 'author' a supplied word? Is it proper to have it in the text? If it really shouldn't be there then this verse doesn't apply to this discussion. But if it does, then we would have Scripture saying there is something God did not create. Or am I missing something?

"Author" is a supplied word. The Greek word akanastasias, translated "of confusion" is in the genitive case. The verb in the sentence is estin, "is." If the author had meant to say "God is not confusion," akanastasia (nominative case) would have been used. Since the word is in the genitive, the sentence negates some sort of relationship (authorship?) between God and confusion, rather than identity of God and confusion.

In context, authorship does make sense as a way to describe the relationship, since this sentence caps the argument that the church should regulate prophetic utterances. What should the church do when several members at once claim to have a message from God? Paul has said make them speak one at a time. The implied objection is, "Who are we to silence someone who has a message from God, or make such a person wait his or her turn?" Paul answers this by saying order comes from God, not confusion, so don't worry that you are offending or silencing God by imposing order in these situations.

 

[Crazy Liz]

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 14:33 gar qeoV esti ou akatastasia alla eirhuh wV eu paV ekklhsia agioV.

1 Corinthians 14:33 lit. For God he is no confusion but peace as in all churches (assemblies) [of the] holy.

Just to clarify, I disagree slightly with BT's "literal" translation, because it fails to take into account that akanastasias is in the genitive case. It should not be translated simply "confusion," but "of confusion."

 

[Matthan]

Is evil "something"? The answer is clear when you look at the converse question, "is evil nothing"? I believe everyone would have to agree that evil, at least in that context, is definitely "something"! and therefore, God created it. Unless, of course, you would be willing to claim there are (or even might be) some things existing, some "somethings", that God did not create? Boy, would that cause a debate, or what!

Matthan <J><

 

[BT]

Just to clarify, I disagree slightly with BT's "literal" translation, because it fails to take into account that akanastasias is in the genitive case. It should not be translated simply "confusion," but "of confusion."

Yes you're right. I should also say that it wasn't a literal translation exactly. The word order was changed as well. In the original (as you Greek students know) word order in Greek is not the same as word order in English (to determine subjects, etc.) so you determine order by declension etc. So if the translation was literal meaning just take the original Greek and change the words directly into English... it would be even more confusing than it is...

This order was taken from the KJV/Strongs Links... not from the TR.

 

[repoland2]

Consider this, before there was anything, there was the Lord our God. From Him, everything was created, Angels, the Heavens, the Earth, even Lucifer was created by God. God gave the Angels free will, and Lucifer decided to exercize that free will by turning his back on the Lord.

However, before that could've been done, Lucifer had to have been created first, THEN given free will by the only being who could give it. Lord God.

So I ask you this, if the Lord is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, and all things between, if He created the Heavens and the Earth, all of us and all who follow Him or do not, Angel and Human alike, then how could God not have created Evil, especially considering the fact that EVERYTHING is His will?

 

[Matthan]

Well said, repoland.

Matthan <J><