I can choose anything I want. That is what choice means. Whatever choice I make that is the choice that God knew I would make. My free will is intact.Telephone said:
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I can choose anything I want. That is what choice means. Whatever choice I make that is the choice that God knew I would make. My free will is intact.Telephone said:I don't believe anyone here has said god makes these choices for you, they are your own choices, but with a god's omnipotence, specifically foreknowledge, you are destined to make these choices, the choices a god has always known you will choose.
You cannot choose anything else.
Or fanciful fiction.
Where did I say it was simple or everyday or a concept that beings in time can understand? Answer: I didn't.If the concept is so simple, so everyday, perhaps you can explain it in some detail ?
elman said:I can choose anything I want. That is what choice means. Whatever choice I make that is the choice that God knew I would make.
elman said:My free will is intact.
elman said:Where did I say it was simple or everyday or a concept that beings in time can understand?
Of course not, but I think you are insinuating a causal connection that you have yet to establish.Telephone said:Can person X choose option A or option C ?
If the person can chose A we do not know the choice will be B. If we know what the person is going to chose then that is what they will chose and they will not chose something else. If they were going to chose A or C that is what we would have known they would chose and we would not have known they would chose B.Telephone said:Here is a simple hypothetical question for you, first let me set the scenario:
In the future, person X will be born and at the age of 48 person X will choose to move to Australia with his family to take up a job offer.
This will all happen in the future, let's say in 100 years time.
God has always know this person's life would play out this way, god has always know this person would choose to move to Australia.
.... now let's fast forward 100 years, it is the day before person X must make his big choice, these are the choices he faces:
A: Stay put and take the job promotion offered by his boss.
B: Take the job offer in Australia and move there with his family.
C Take the job offer near his parents house in Scotland.
Now bear in mind that for all intents and purposes we, just like the Christian diety, have inerrant foreknowledge, we know the outcome will be choice B.
Now for my question:
Can person X choose option A or option C ?
It may 'feel' that way, but an omniscient diety negates freewill and foreknowledge negates choice.
Is is simply the illusion of freewill.
Where does that comment say I thought understanding being outside time was simple to understand and explain in detail?Telephone said:Elman wrote: I don't understand your problem with a concept that posits some reality is subject to time and some reality is not subject to time
Neither foreknowledge nor an omniscient diety negates freewill and the idea that it does is an illusion.Telephone said:It may 'feel' that way, but an omniscient diety negates freewill and foreknowledge negates choice.
Is is simply the illusion of freewill.
JonF said:Of course not,
JonF said:but I think you are insinuating a causal connection that you have yet to establish. [/SIZE][/FONT]
elman said:If we know what the person is going to chose then that is what they will chose
elman said:and they will not chose something else.
elman said:If they were going to chose A or C that is what we would have known they would chose
elman said:and we would not have known they would chose B.
elman said:Neither foreknowledge nor an omniscient diety negates freewill and the idea that it does is an illusion.
sureTelephone said:Could you show me where in my hypothetical scenario I am insinuating a causal connection ?
Please show the causal connection between a person choosing choice B, and a person not having free will. As I understand your argument it goes something like this:Telephone said:If person X cannot choose option A or option C then where is his free will in the matter ?
JonF said:sure
JonF said:Please show the causal connection between a person choosing choice B, and a person not having free will.
JonF said:]As I understand your argument it goes something like this:
1) God has all knowledge
2) God has knowledge of a particular event X in the future
JonF said:3) God’s knowledge causes event X to happen
JonF said:4) Therefore we have no free will in relation to event X.
I don’t agree with #3.
Telephone said:Telephone wrote:Could you show me where in my hypothetical scenario I am insinuating a causal connection
it wasn’t a response to one of my questions, I don’t think I’ve even asked a question in this thread. Also the above was a direct response you made to your hypothetical scenario.Telephone said:Telephone wrote: If person X cannot choose option A or option C then where is his free will in the matter ?
Ignoring the fact that the above statement from myself was not in my hypothetical scenario but a later response to one of your own questions, I still fail to see where in this response I am attributing cause and to whom or what ?
I have been clear in this thread about any speculative cause to future events, It is not part of my conversation and I have certainly not attributed cause to a god.
Fine, we agree. This leaves you with.Here is a response from me to elman earlier in this thread:
I don't believe anyone here has said god makes these choices for you, they are your own choices.
I think it is clear I am not trying to make a causal connection with a god:
And from another post:
elman: Knowing what I am going to do is not the same as causing me to do it.
telephone: This is correct, foreknowledge does not cause an event.
This person cannot choose option A or option C, he can only choose option B.
Yes, omniscience would give a god foreknowledge
No, I have never implemented a gods knowledge as a cause.
No, neither do I.
JonF said:it wasn’t a response to one of my questions, I don’t think I’ve even asked a question in this thread. Also the above was a direct response you made to your hypothetical scenario.
JonF said:I would argue this instead:
1) Via our free will [we] choose to perform action X at time T.
2) Us performing action X at time T causes God to know action X at time T will happen
yes, then you claimed that you posted something in response to one of my questions. Oddly I have yet to pose a question.Telephone said:Apologies, it was a respone to your statement "Of course not, but I think you are insinuating a causal connection that you have yet to establish."
Telephone said:This makes little sense.
again we are in agreement, God knows the choice I will make. But statements about free will are statements about cause. You cant have free will means the cause of your actions isnt choice. You have said you have made no causal claim. How is it then you are showing we dont have free will? You yourself said foreknowledge doesnt cause the event. But here you seem to claiming that Gods foreknowledge causes us to perform an action?Telephone said:
If our actions inform a god's knowledge then that god cannot be said to have foreknowledge.
If we rewind a million years or so, before you or I perform action X, god foreknows we will take this action, he does not have to wait until we take the action to know it will happen.
Fast foward a million years back to my original hypothetical scenario, person X cannot choose anything except option B.
we understand that is your position.Telephone said:Omniscience only allows the illusion of free will.
I suspect responses like that might be appropriate in response to people who argue via ad Hominem. But hey, way to show that we Christians are the ignorant fools who cant handle an intelligent argument respectfully.Telephone said:I suspect we are getting close to showing the lack of sound reasoning or logic in the coupling of omniscience and free will, time perhaps to wheel out some "god is not constrained by time" or "we do not understand that which we do not understand" type arguments ?
Somebody switch my brain off and pass me that bible.
JonF said:yes, then you claimed that you posted something in response to one of my questions. Oddly I have yet to pose a question.
JonF said:again we are in agreement, God knows the choice I will make. But statements about free will are statements about cause.
JonF said:“You can’t have free will” means the cause of your actions isn’t choice. You have said you have made no causal claim. How is it then you are showing we don’t have free will? You yourself said foreknowledge doesn’t cause the event. But here you seem to claiming that God’s foreknowledge causes us to perform an action?
JonF said:Maybe you are meaning something substandard by “free will”?
JonF said:I suspect responses like that might be appropriate in response to people who argue via ad Hominem. But hey, way to show that we Christians are the ignorant fools who can’t handle an intelligent argument respectfully.
I did explain and that was your statement turned on its ear. You are the one that said free will was just an illusion.Telephone said:Would you like to contribute any further than a blanket statement without explanation or back up ?
There is where your example breaks down. An inerrant omniscient diety would not know person x was going to chose B unless B is what he was going to chose. An omniscient diety with foreknowledge does not negate free willTelephone said:Indeed.
In the specific scenario our inerrant omniscient diety knows person X will choose option B, nothing else.
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