God as... Creator

[GraceSeeker]

Well, it's been nearly a full day since anyone added any new thoughts to this thread. So, if I can, I would like to change the topic to the question I asked above:

Why do the Nicene and Apostles' Creeds declare the "Father Almighty" to be THE Creator of heaven and earth, when both John 1 and Colossians 1 declare it to be the pre-incarnate 2nd person of the Trinity (i.e. the Word in John 1:3 and the Son in Colossians 1:17)?

Even Old Testament passages describe the Creator as also the Redeemer and Lord, but only once say "Father," and that in Deuteronomy 32, a passage in which God is also set forth to be "their Rock", their Savior, their sustainer, their forgiver, and the one who "bought" them.

 

[GadFly]

Well, it's been nearly a full day since anyone added any new thoughts to this thread. So, if I can, I would like to change the topic to the question I asked above:

Why do the Nicene and Apostles' Creeds declare the "Father Almighty" to be THE Creator of heaven and earth, when both John 1 and Colossians 1 declare it to be the pre-incarnate 2nd person of the Trinity (i.e. the Word in John 1:3 and the Son in Colossians 1:17)?

Even Old Testament passages describe the Creator as also the Redeemer and Lord, but only once say "Father," and that in Deuteronomy 32, a passage in which God is also set forth to be "their Rock", their Savior, their sustainer, their forgiver, and the one who "bought" them.

God he Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit ane the One God.

 

[GraceSeeker]

God he Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit ane the One God.

Agreed. But if that is an answer to my question then the following would be an appropriate way to understand the Nicene Creed:




We believe in one God,
the Son, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, the Holy Spirit,
the only Spirit of God,
eternally begotten of the Son,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Son.
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
by the power of the Father
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Son.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Father, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Who with the Son and the Holy Spirit
is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism
for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.



While all are one God, we worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being. What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit. I have no argument with any of that.

But I also know: all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons. Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person.

A part of recognizing the Father, the Son and the Spirit as distinct persons means that despite their unity as one divine being, that still there are distinctions that can be ascribed to each of their persons. For instance: The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten; the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father; the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.

And as scripture speaks only of the Son being incarnated so that we never speak of the Father that way. I am curious why given how scripture speaks of the Word/Redeemer/Son as the creator that the creed speaks of the Father that way? I know of no other points in the creed that scripture so clearly assigns to one person of the Trinity which the creed describes as being the work of another.

 

[Maid Marie]

It seems to me that there was some verse in the OT where "Wisdom" speaks of having helped God create everything. I would look it up on a search engine but I am fasting the internet for the next month [by fasting I mean I spend no more than 30 min a day on here]. This would be one example of God [not specifically Christ] being the creator.

Not having been there when these decisions were made back in the 300s, I would say that the creed was built upon the picture of Father God as creator based on Genesis 1 + 2. As for why Christ wasn't mentioned in the creed as co-creator or creator, could it be that the NT canon wasn't formalized yet [again, I could look this up but I am determined not to veg at the computer like I normally do]?

 

[GadFly]

Agreed. But if that is an answer to my question then the following would be an appropriate way to understand the Nicene Creed:




We believe in one God,
the Son, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, the Holy Spirit,
the only Spirit of God,
eternally begotten of the Son,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Son.
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
by the power of the Father
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Son.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Father, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Who with the Son and the Holy Spirit
is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism
for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.



While all are one God, we worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being. What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit. I have no argument with any of that.

But I also know: all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons. Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person.

A part of recognizing the Father, the Son and the Spirit as distinct persons means that despite their unity as one divine being, that still there are distinctions that can be ascribed to each of their persons. For instance: The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten; the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father; the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.

And as scripture speaks only of the Son being incarnated so that we never speak of the Father that way. I am curious why given how scripture speaks of the Word/Redeemer/Son as the creator that the creed speaks of the Father that way? I know of no other points in the creed that scripture so clearly assigns to one person of the Trinity which the creed describes as being the work of another.

This all good but let's simplify: "In the beginning God Created......" and the creeds say: "Yes, he did!" Is there any other point needed?

 

[GraceSeeker]

This all good but let's simplify: "In the beginning God Created......" and the creeds say: "Yes, he did!" Is there any other point needed?

I don't know if you aren't hearing me because I'm not asking well or you're not listening well. But you aren't dealing with the question I'm trying to ask?

 

[GadFly]

I don't know if you aren't hearing me because I'm not asking well or you're not listening well. But you aren't dealing with the question I'm trying to ask?

GraceSeeker this is not my thread. Maybe somebody else can answer your question better than I. I do yield to somebody else that understands your question better than I. I honestly don't understand what point you are trying to make.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

What I find interesting is when the Scriptures talk about everything being created through Christ. That's some crazy stuff right there.

 

[StudentofScripture55]

We have many facets. Part of our being created in the image of God, is we have a piece of His creative nature. We can bring from our thoughts (the metaphysical) to an outcome; the physical. We are able to turn our inner desires into an outward manifestation. What we create can be either "Good" or "Evil" our choice. Though often I wonder if our perspectives are too limited to always tell the difference.

I think you hit upon an important aspect of humanity-we may be created in God's image, but that does not mean we are equal to God. We can't always tell the difference between good and evil, because if we could, why would we ever do evil?

We are, as humans, limited by our perceptions. We know, at some level, that we are part of something much, much greater than what our perceptions tell us, but our limitations as humans cause us to not see the bigger picture.

The question is; how do we transcend our perceptions? How do we "zoom out" and see a bigger picture?

I have a hunch that a gift from God called faith has something to do with it.